You have been heard

General discussion about the games and the scene.

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Lousku
Kuski
Posts: 2925
Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Team: BAP
Location: expensive land of dads

You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

[2013-08-24 15:34:32] ( kabii) tl deserves ban for short balletime
[2013-08-27 06:01:21] ( Ramone) I hate too short battle. no fun. only stress
[2013-08-31 10:45:59] ( Riposeta) too short time
[2013-09-01 14:55:46] ( kestas) balle time 5min too short
[2013-09-01 14:56:38] ( kestas) good lev but way too short battle time
[2013-09-12 00:51:26] ( YEAHS) short timer
[2013-09-29 12:32:15] ( anpdad) why so short
[2013-10-12 22:24:23] ( MicroGen) troll lev include short time?
[2013-10-19 00:02:15] ( MicroGen) oh too short
[2013-10-24 03:14:54] ( MicroGen) short :(
[2013-10-26 14:43:07] ( juka) tl batle too hard and short time bye
[2013-10-29 19:54:33] ( John) way too short balletime for multistyel lev
[2013-10-29 19:55:04] ( p-skript) very short battletime
[2013-11-06 22:35:06] ( John) 7 mins too short to find good use of gravity
[2013-11-07 21:50:13] ( finman) too short battletime
[2013-11-07 22:46:10] ( Bume) 3 mins impsy short
[2013-11-17 20:02:04] ( anpdad) too short imo
[2013-11-17 20:02:06] ( Chris) too short
[2013-11-30 16:20:34] ( kabii) way too short balletime
[2013-11-30 22:56:54] ( YEAHS) too short time
[2013-12-23 15:14:17] ( DCEM) balletime is way too short
[2014-01-01 14:58:02] ( Xo3auH_MoPrA) 3mins balles are too short
[2014-01-01 16:13:09] ( DCEM) played 10min and 15was too short even, shoulda been 20min bulle
[2014-01-05 14:37:37] ( igge) too short time
[2014-01-20 20:14:33] ( Ramone) diont put so fuckign short battletime pls
[2014-02-06 17:26:35] ( Pab) too basic too short galle
[2014-02-10 17:38:31] ( Grindelwald) why so short balle? ez under 30
[2014-02-17 17:41:29] ( PELUSON27) short time :(
[2014-03-08 17:48:20] ( igge) why so short balle?
[2014-03-09 00:59:19] ( aspec) nice lev, why short balletime(
[2014-03-16 16:53:05] ( igge) why so short time??????
[2014-03-25 18:04:56] ( PELUSON27) short time
[2014-04-24 23:51:54] ( John) 9 mins too short for any style :s
[2011-05-31 22:02:34] ( GRob) no problem with this balle except the balletime
[2011-06-09 15:09:46] ( Zero) and 10MINS BALLETIME WTF
[2011-07-09 19:22:03] ( Zero) but need 20mins balletime
[2011-07-12 17:01:42] ( roope) way too short balletime
[2011-07-12 18:10:22] ( trew) really short balletime
[2011-07-11 11:55:36] ( anpdad) too long balletime
[2011-07-22 18:44:36] ( Zero) way too much balletime
[2011-07-26 11:42:58] ( Jappe2) ye bad balletime
[2011-07-26 13:23:28] ( anpdad) idiot balletime
[2011-07-29 17:55:40] ( Zero) why had 15mins balletime
[2011-07-29 23:14:35] ( Zero) horrible balletime
[2011-08-07 01:16:33] ( Labs) too small balletime
[2011-08-09 21:25:58] ( roope) wtf why so long balletime
[2011-08-11 17:06:54] ( anpdad) too little balletime
[2011-08-14 22:18:24] ( Zero) wtf balletime
[2011-08-14 22:26:57] ( Zero) with 11mins balletime cant make good
[2011-08-17 19:47:34] ( Zero) learn to put balletime
[2011-08-22 17:56:45] ( Zero) aa evil balletime)
[2011-08-24 20:16:37] ( Madness) zero, learn to add more balletime plz
[2011-08-29 23:23:36] ( Pab) im the only one who puts correct balletime
[2011-09-02 20:05:03] ( anpdad) and the only reason behind that is retarded balletime
[2011-09-02 23:32:36] ( Zero) fucked up balletime
[2011-09-15 15:25:35] ( Zero) but balletime like that ruins it all
[2011-09-17 22:57:48] ( TL) this balletime is joke
[2011-09-22 00:05:30] ( Madness) !balletime 0
[2011-09-23 22:38:24] ( Jeppe) should have put more balletime
[2011-09-25 05:20:45] ( PJ) to much balletime
[2011-09-27 15:13:07] ( GRob) balletime too short
[2011-10-03 18:03:37] ( anpdad) not enough balletime
[2011-10-05 21:03:42] ( Zero) what a retarded shitbrain balletime ffs
[2011-10-05 21:04:10] ( Zero) balletime could suck every nasty thing
[2011-10-06 15:25:09] ( anpdad) a bit too long balletime maybe
[2011-10-08 19:07:15] ( Zero) but what the hell balletime
[2011-10-08 19:09:18] ( Zero) learn to put balletime
[2011-10-15 16:45:16] ( stefankivb) !balletime 1
[2011-10-17 14:49:08] ( Zero) more testing or more balletime
[2011-10-17 21:22:38] ( Zero) !balletime 2
[2011-10-19 21:47:52] ( stefankivb) !balletime 1
[2011-10-19 21:48:06] ( stefankivb) !balletime 1
[2011-10-23 00:24:53] ( stefankivb) !balletime 2
[2011-10-25 01:19:58] ( stefankivb) bad balletime(
[2011-10-25 09:44:30] ( anpdad) why the fuck not 45mins balletime:(
[2011-10-25 09:47:06] ( anpdad) !balletime 0
[2011-10-25 09:47:09] ( anpdad) worst balletime ever
[2011-10-27 14:25:07] ( anpdad) annoying balletime
[2011-10-27 14:31:22] ( Zero) balletime drops lev from 8 to 1
[2011-10-28 17:07:16] ( Madness) sax balletime!
[2011-11-02 15:10:09] ( stefankivb) suck balletime
[2011-11-02 17:14:26] ( stefankivb) fuck suck balletime
[2011-11-07 19:00:49] ( BlaZtek) and balletime is like way to much
[2011-11-08 19:05:14] ( BlaZtek) Why so stupid balletime?????
[2011-11-08 21:27:06] ( Zero) !balletime 0
[2011-11-08 21:49:44] ( Zero) too little balletime sucks
[2011-11-09 20:24:47] ( stefankivb) shit balletime
[2011-11-13 16:28:38] ( stefankivb) so shit balletime
[2011-11-18 21:26:40] ( stefankivb) sucks balletime
[2011-11-19 15:52:48] ( juka) !balletime 1
[2011-11-22 21:22:42] ( roope) very wtf balletime
[2011-11-24 22:30:11] ( Zero) lev got no idea with 9mins balletime
[2011-11-25 13:01:27] ( Mielz) why so long balletime
[2011-11-26 18:16:37] ( Madness) lev10 balletime-10 = lev1
[2011-11-29 10:37:05] ( Zero) too little balletime
[2011-12-02 01:23:09] ( BlaZtek) lol only 16 minutes balletime
[2011-12-02 01:34:05] ( BlaZtek) But very bad balletime
[2011-12-02 19:03:36] ( Madness) i dont remember ever playing a lev by pab with enough balletime
[2011-12-02 19:12:04] ( Madness) retarded balletime
[2011-12-02 19:12:13] ( adi) stupid balletime
[2011-12-03 00:50:17] ( adi) !balletime 2
[2011-12-03 15:19:50] ( Madness) too hard sc for so little balletime
[2011-12-05 22:12:17] ( Madness) now learn something about balletime
[2011-12-05 22:13:19] ( Tigro) longer balles deserve more balletime
[2011-12-06 02:00:07] ( Madness) !balletime 1 :D
[2011-12-07 18:28:54] ( Zero) too little balletime i tell ya o,o
[2011-12-09 01:37:39] ( stefankivb) suck balletime
[2011-12-09 01:38:18] ( stefankivb) balletime
[2011-12-09 15:17:33] ( FANTomck) !balletime 10
[2011-12-09 17:35:18] ( Madness) shit balletime indeed
[2011-12-10 00:49:04] ( Zero) needed much more balletime
[2011-12-12 22:48:22] ( k0xx) moar balletime (
[2011-12-19 10:52:51] ( stefankivb) balletime 3
[2011-12-24 00:13:31] ( stefankivb) but balletime 2
[2011-12-28 18:00:12] ( Zero) balletime 1
[2012-01-04 00:54:45] ( Zero) but way too little balletime
[2012-01-05 21:26:20] ( Zero) and also too little balletime
[2012-01-11 00:29:48] ( talli) noob balletime(
[2012-01-11 17:44:36] ( Zero) nab balletime
[2012-01-18 07:38:06] ( anpdad) too much balletime
[2012-01-18 21:25:34] ( Madness) insufficient balletime
[2012-01-21 00:00:26] ( stefankivb) suck balletime
[2012-01-21 21:28:57] ( Madness) NOT FUN BALLETIME
[2012-01-22 05:13:06] ( trew) sux balletime
[2012-01-22 05:16:21] ( trew) balletime sux, no matter what i think
[2012-02-01 18:41:52] ( juka) short balletime(
[2012-02-10 23:30:22] ( Madness) shit balletime
[2012-02-11 15:43:58] ( Madness) the fuck balletime
[2012-02-11 17:13:29] ( Madness) needed 50 mins more balletime
[2012-02-14 16:02:52] ( Zero) also too little balletime
[2012-02-19 13:11:39] ( stefankivb) suck balletime
[2012-02-21 02:49:08] ( roope) cool lev, nab balletime)
[2012-02-21 03:06:21] ( Xiphias) way too lonng balletime:)
[2012-02-21 14:45:29] ( aspec) balletime(
[2012-02-23 15:34:56] ( Zero) blame balletime or wtf
[2012-02-23 16:02:09] ( Mawane) not enough balletime
[2012-02-23 18:55:20] ( Zero) why want to make it shit with too little balletime
[2012-02-24 01:25:32] ( stefankivb) okay, fuck this balletime with jblaze
[2012-02-29 22:16:56] ( Zero) also needed twice as much balletime
[2012-03-02 12:08:45] ( anpdad) typical bad balletime.
[2012-03-04 02:16:57] ( stefankivb) nab balletime
[2012-03-09 14:34:06] ( anpdad) ban balletime
[2012-03-11 13:56:12] ( anpdad) worst balletime :)
[2012-03-18 22:11:29] ( Zero) why so short balletime
[2012-03-25 19:54:49] ( juka) so short balletime
[2012-03-27 18:58:37] ( juka) !balletime 1
[2012-04-07 02:51:43] ( juka) shoort balletime() can barely finish
[2012-04-15 12:10:49] ( Zero) too little balletime after all
[2012-04-18 16:00:55] ( Zero) what the fuck balletime
[2012-04-20 22:16:13] ( ville_j) too long balletime(
[2012-04-21 21:09:52] ( roope) bad balletime
[2012-04-22 00:21:56] ( Zero) only gayshit here was balletime: (
[2012-04-23 19:19:08] ( Madness) but the balletime is usually horrible
[2012-04-28 10:26:53] ( anpdad) bad balletime
[2012-04-29 19:24:09] ( Madness) very bad balletime
[2012-05-04 21:19:49] ( Madness) the fuck balletime
[2012-05-10 16:52:51] ( Zero) what the fuck is that 12mins balletime
[2012-05-11 22:06:42] ( Zero) too long balletime tl
[2012-05-12 21:06:44] ( Zero) jappe nab more balletime o,o
[2012-05-17 22:45:10] ( Jeppe) homosexual balletime
[2012-05-17 22:51:26] ( Ropelli) impsy bad balletime
[2012-05-18 23:41:38] ( Madness) wtf balletime
[2012-05-19 00:06:55] ( Zero) balletime -.0
[2012-05-19 00:31:58] ( Madness) !balletime 10
[2012-05-19 11:24:27] ( Zero) fucking balletime
[2012-05-19 11:24:39] ( Zero) you guys ruin balles with too little balletime
[2012-05-19 11:29:04] ( Zero) i complain you about balletime
[2012-05-20 17:32:12] ( Zero) gay balletime
[2012-05-22 16:17:56] ( Zero) and also too little balletime
[2012-05-23 01:19:31] ( Madness) balletime you fucking idiot
[2012-05-27 16:22:41] ( GRob) bad balletime ye
[2012-05-27 21:21:39] ( Jeppe) good lev but ruined cuz TL balletime
[2012-05-28 14:56:41] ( roope) what the shit is this balletime blaz
[2012-05-28 14:57:06] ( Grindelwald) ye, wtf balletime
[2012-05-28 18:03:59] ( Zero) god damn that balletime
[2012-05-30 16:37:56] ( Madness) why so idiotic balletime?
[2012-06-05 20:07:37] ( jblaze) o,o balletime sax
[2012-06-07 16:57:15] ( Zero) balletime:L(
[2012-06-10 13:22:37] ( finman) too little balletime
[2012-06-11 17:45:19] ( anpdad) such short balletime.
[2012-06-13 18:25:30] ( jblaze) small balletime fu
[2012-06-26 19:51:45] ( Zero) why too little balletime!!
[2012-06-27 11:38:20] ( Morgan) too much balletime i guess
[2012-06-29 13:28:06] ( Lousku) 10 mins too much balletime :=)
[2012-07-01 01:42:41] ( Zero) shit balle/balletime
[2012-07-05 10:32:19] ( Morgan) lol too long balletime
[2012-07-07 21:13:19] ( Zero) not like, nice lev but damn, was so little balletime
[2012-07-07 23:42:12] ( Zero) i can take that one. way too short balletime
[2012-07-29 21:54:06] ( Hosp) too small balletime
[2012-08-04 20:51:27] ( Morgan) too low balletime
[2012-08-06 20:10:33] ( Morgan) hmm too many balletime
[2012-08-07 02:38:53] ( Zero) wtf balletime
[2012-08-07 21:14:08] ( Morgan) 1 min too low balletime :D
[2012-08-08 16:23:35] ( Hosp) good level but not good balletime
[2012-08-10 19:46:02] ( Morgan) too little balletime FM
[2012-08-16 21:23:27] ( Pascal) !balletime 1
[2012-08-17 14:40:25] ( Redline) gay balletime
[2012-08-18 15:36:36] ( Zero) atleast in 9mins o,o wtf balletime btw
[2012-08-21 22:31:20] ( Hosp) too small balletime
[2012-08-22 16:32:43] ( Zero) imo not a bad lev, but bad balletime o,o
[2012-08-23 09:07:52] ( anpdad) too much balletime
[2012-08-23 21:29:39] ( kabii) !balletime 1
[2012-08-23 21:29:46] ( stefankivb) balletime 1
[2012-08-23 21:40:52] ( Bbl Bce CyKu) too little balletime
[2012-08-24 16:37:52] ( Zero) fucking illegal balletime ;D
[2012-08-27 09:07:56] ( Morgan) !balletime 1
[2012-08-30 01:37:08] ( Pascal) mongo balletime
[2012-08-30 21:33:38] ( roope) too bad basic tl bs balletime
[2012-09-02 21:36:13] ( Zero) too little balletime
[2012-09-10 19:33:54] ( Hosp) balletime not good enough to hoyl good levels
[2012-09-13 15:24:27] ( Zero) coz it was homo and somebody can't put enough balletime
[2012-09-13 23:28:36] ( Zero) bad lev/balletime
[2012-09-13 23:28:57] ( Morgan) BALLETIME(
[2012-09-17 14:37:27] ( Morgan) too many balletime
[2012-09-17 14:53:13] ( Morgan) too many balletime())
[2012-09-17 16:58:41] ( Zero) even less balletime(
[2012-09-17 17:09:05] ( Zero) also really shit balletime
[2012-09-17 18:45:49] ( Morgan) too little balletime
[2012-09-18 22:16:15] ( Morgan) that joke? balletime wtf
[2012-09-19 15:42:39] ( Zero) too little balletime
[2012-09-22 16:52:10] ( Kiiwi) still...horrid balletime
[2012-09-28 16:23:59] ( Labs) bad balletime
[2012-10-02 14:37:56] ( Morgan) homo balletime
[2012-10-08 18:46:26] ( kabii) real bad balletime
[2012-10-11 04:41:25] ( goon) bad balletime even for bullet(
[2012-10-15 17:32:27] ( Hosp) retarded balletime
[2012-10-26 22:54:48] ( Hosp) TOO MSALL BALLETIME
[2012-11-20 22:40:07] ( anpdad) balletime being mongo
[2012-11-27 16:49:45] ( Hosp) retarded balletime
[2012-11-28 16:48:06] ( Zero) very mongo balletime
[2012-11-29 20:32:39] ( Zero) !balletime 1
[2012-12-08 14:59:28] ( Morgan) too little balletime
[2012-12-09 02:12:42] ( Hosp) but way too little balletime chris
[2012-12-09 10:53:55] ( anpdad) worst balletime in history of world
[2012-12-09 22:25:52] ( finman) but !balletime 0
[2012-12-09 22:26:21] ( anpdad) but not enough balletime i guess
[2012-12-11 23:49:14] ( anpdad) possibloy shitlev with shit balletime
[2012-12-12 00:50:47] ( anpdad) fuckness balletime
[2012-12-12 14:58:10] ( Luther) !balletime 1
[2012-12-13 16:45:58] ( talli) now too long balletime
[2012-12-15 23:18:41] ( stefankivb) lev 10 balletime 2
[2012-12-22 22:06:16] ( stefankivb) nice lev bad balletime
[2012-12-26 13:09:25] ( bliatello) max homo balletime
[2012-12-27 00:38:57] ( stefankivb) idiotest balletime ever
[2013-01-03 01:32:31] ( anpdad) evil balletime
[2013-01-09 21:16:18] ( trew) too little balletime :(
[2013-01-11 00:27:46] ( kabii) how long balletime
[2013-01-14 17:25:08] ( Zero) wtf balletime
[2013-01-17 19:13:10] ( Hosp) joined late and very bad balletime
[2013-01-20 16:42:48] ( Jeppe) bad balletime
[2013-01-25 12:55:24] ( anpdad) needs 25min balletime
[2013-01-28 14:30:23] ( talli) bad balletime
[2013-01-30 23:48:36] ( Jeppe) sadest balletime
[2013-02-17 21:36:17] ( GRob) long balletime
[2013-02-21 19:59:52] ( b0ne) bad balletime(
[2013-03-06 13:38:17] ( anpdad) not enough balletime though
[2013-03-10 10:13:51] ( anpdad) balletime lacks enoughness
[2013-03-19 17:40:37] ( iltsu) maybe stupidest balletime i have ever seen
[2013-03-30 15:09:55] ( kabii) but bad balletime
[2013-03-30 21:39:48] ( kabii) !balletime 0
[2013-04-01 10:28:19] ( anpdad) so short balletime:s
[2013-04-07 18:46:14] ( roope) suka FCUK balletime though
[2013-05-03 15:05:32] ( Luther) sax balletime((
[2013-05-03 15:06:58] ( Luther) fuck this balletime(
[2013-05-06 14:29:46] ( igge) !balletime -infinity
[2013-06-03 14:16:50] ( Zero) max shit balletime
[2013-06-03 14:23:04] ( aspec) small balletime (
[2013-06-06 14:30:46] ( SIC) damn too long balletime
[2013-06-08 19:27:10] ( BlaZtek) WFT balletime
[2013-06-14 10:23:30] ( anpdad) why so lnog balletime?
[2013-06-16 14:11:19] ( iltsu) bad balletime
[2013-06-16 20:33:37] ( talli) noob balletime)
[2013-06-23 21:33:07] ( Madness) ramone should learn about correct balletime again
[2013-06-29 22:09:54] ( Zero) im not very pleased with the balletime
[2013-07-04 20:18:31] ( adi) !balletime 4
[2013-07-07 00:17:38] ( Hosp) !balletime 3
[2013-07-17 19:21:41] ( Bbl Bce CyKu) too litle balletime
[2013-07-19 20:10:22] ( anpdad) too big balletime
[2013-08-15 22:33:46] ( roope) so shit balletime o,o
[2013-08-27 18:50:08] ( Morgan) ye but too long balletime
[2013-09-10 21:59:20] ( anpdad) wtf balletime
[2013-10-03 01:38:27] ( wazsi) what why only 1 min balletime...
[2013-10-04 22:46:33] ( Hosp) bad balletime
[2013-11-15 10:18:17] ( Bbl Bce CyKu) wtf balletime
[2013-11-18 19:39:52] ( anpdad) why so low balletime
[2014-01-05 01:31:33] ( Lousku) hosp always stingy on ff balletime

That's just from skimming the given results of 2 search terms (so probably some 1% of all the complaints[citation needed]).

This is not meant to be an attack on anyone quoted (hey look, I even included my own lines). Let's say the hivemind has a ridiculous claim (balletime can be incorrect) floating around and frankly I think the joke got old many years ago. Alright, maybe you're not claiming balletime can be incorrect; you're just sharing your opinion. But maybe a few hundred times is enough? Or should all other players simply conform to whatever ambiguous balletime formula you find most enjoyable?

If you really think there is such a thing as incorrect balletime, feel free to argue for it. I have yet to hear any sensible arguments.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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kuchitsu
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Posts: 1423
Joined: 13 Aug 2010, 20:31

Re: You have been heard

Post by kuchitsu »

Of course nobody claims that some battle times are "incorrect" and that some times are undoubtedly better than others. These messages you've quoted are simply opinions, just like "!lev 5", "cool lev but that hang part is too annoying", "boring forced style lev", etc. I dunno, would you rather hear "everything was ok, cool balle!" or "I didn't like this and this" as feedback? Personally, I prefer being criticized to not getting any meaningful comments at all.
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Lousku
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Posts: 2925
Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Team: BAP
Location: expensive land of dads

Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

kuchitsu wrote:Of course nobody claims that some battle times are "incorrect" and that some times are undoubtedly better than others.
Some of the quotes there do claim that. Could be jokes but then some mans tend to get very angry and serious about teh.
kuchitsu wrote:These messages you've quoted are simply opinions, just like "!lev 5", "cool lev but that hang part is too annoying", "boring forced style lev", etc. I dunno, would you rather hear "everything was ok, cool balle!" or "I didn't like this and this" as feedback? Personally, I prefer being criticized to not getting any meaningful comments at all.
How are they meaningful? I can tell you I don't like stone3 foreground but it's not constructive after I've angrily shared it 500 times. The message has gone across and others simply don't agree, so people are only generating hate with this.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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kuchitsu
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Joined: 13 Aug 2010, 20:31

Re: You have been heard

Post by kuchitsu »

Umm, that analogy doesn't really work I think. Each time someone says "bad battle time" they say it about a different battle so it's not like they are repeating the same thing. :)
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Lousku
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Posts: 2925
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Team: BAP
Location: expensive land of dads

Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

kuchitsu wrote:Umm, that analogy doesn't really work I think. Each time someone says "bad battle time" they say it about a different battle so it's not like they are repeating the same thing. :)
If it's a different thing each time, it's even less meaningful. Even if the balle starter wanted to conform to the critic's ideal balletime, how would they know how to conform next time?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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kuchitsu
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Re: You have been heard

Post by kuchitsu »

Uhhhh, maybe by analyzing comments about these things? Look in which cases people complain about battle time and in which cases they don't, then try to understand what exactly caused the complaints, etc?

Maybe I don't fully understand your point because of the language barrier or something, but what you're saying sounds a little strange/silly to me... People just complain about battle time when they think that some other time would be much more appropriate, what's so bad about that? It's just like commenting on any other battle-related thing, like "this battle would be more fun with always throttle" or "you should have swapped start and flower, would be more fun", etc...
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Lousku
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

kuchitsu wrote:Uhhhh, maybe by analyzing comments about these things? Look in which cases people complain about battle time and in which cases they don't, then try to understand what exactly caused the complaints, etc?
You suggested it's not the same complaint each time. If the formula keeps changing, it's not possible to predict what would suit the critic next time you're starting a balle.
kuchitsu wrote:Maybe I don't fully understand your point because of the language barrier or something, but what you're saying sounds a little strange/silly to me... People just complain about battle time when they think that some other time would be much more appropriate, what's so bad about that?
Is there a difference between "correct" and "appropriate" in this context? I don't see it.
kuchitsu wrote:It's just like commenting on any other battle-related thing, like "this battle would be more fun with always throttle" or "you should have swapped start and flower, would be more fun", etc...
Give those comments anger and hundreds of repetitions, I'll be fed up with them just as well. Most balletime complaints are not in the vein of "more time would be more fun", but "gay retard learn to put balletime".
then again i don't know anything
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Re: You have been heard

Post by kuchitsu »

You suggested it's not the same complaint each time. If the formula keeps changing, it's not possible to predict what would suit the critic next time you're starting a balle.
I never said that the formula keeps changing (or that there is some formula at all). I meant that "bad battle time" about jon1.lev and "bad battle time" about jon2.lev are two completely separate opinions, therefore expressing them both isn't the same as saying "I don't like stone3" 2 times, that's all. And if you collect many comments like that from one person, you probably should be able to find some system there.
Is there a difference between "correct" and "appropriate" in this context? I don't see it.
Well, to me if a person says that a certain battle time is "correct" for some battle, it sounds like they believe that it is some ultimate indisputable truth like "2+2=4". Saying that some time is "appropriate" makes it sound more like just an opinion and not an attempt to claim that it's 100% best possible time.


Of course I totally agree with you in that everyone should generally be nice when giving criticism and at least try to not sound like a jerk. Although I noticed that in EOL (and on the internet in general, I guess) it's sometimes isn't that easy to tell how serious a certain message is. For instance, Nekit swears at Kazan all the time but clearly in a friendly way :) but sometimes the true meaning isn't that clear. So maybe try not to take sach stuff too personally, assume the best intentions, etc...
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

kuchitsu wrote:I never said that the formula keeps changing (or that there is some formula at all). I meant that "bad battle time" about jon1.lev and "bad battle time" about jon2.lev are two completely separate opinions, therefore expressing them both isn't the same as saying "I don't like stone3" 2 times, that's all. And if you collect many comments like that from one person, you probably should be able to find some system there.
I don't see your logic. If the two opinions follow a system, then the critic is in fact repeating the same message. There's just more steps in the logic than in my stone3-example.

I assure you many players do think balletimes can be incorrect or unacceptable. I could dig some angry conversations from the chatlog where people argue for it outright, but I don't want to outline specific mans here. I also didn't specifically select bad apples in the quotes above, that's just how they are. Some are rather neutral, only giving a simple rating or saying balletime was bad, but most come across as untypically angry and self-righteous for EOL. There are lots of people who don't enjoy pipes, so they skip pipe battles and play something else. Meanwhile, you can add a 2-minute multiroute level as a 5-minute battle and you are guaranteed to get backlash, while it's simply a different type of battle. Some people like it, but these critics don't, so they curse the battle and the designer.
then again i don't know anything
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Re: You have been heard

Post by anpdad »

Quick morning post, no grammar or brain whatsoever. I really like tl's battletimes actually most of the time, but sometimes he seems to go overboard a little. But that could be just my biased impression, since i suck at certain tricks, so in some cases i cant even finish a lev properly within given time frame. There's a certain appeal to short balletimes. Sure, you don't get an amazing winrec, and no one is satisfied with their runs in the end, but battle becomes very intense and motivates focused play. On the other hand, tl's levs, albeit being hard, usually (not always:p) do not have impsy 1/1000 tricks in them, which makes short balles quite fair imo, and rewards skills and effort. This approach doesn't work in other types of levs. For example, i would totally become enraged if i had to participate in a typical zweqballe, hospshitlev or louskuballe with "too short" baletime. In my opinion, that would just introduce a lot of stress and randomness with not much reward, i.e. "oh, i guessed the style with the first try and got lucky in this hard spot, cool. fuck this lev". Not to say that any of those guys do put unfittingly low balletimes in inapproriate levs (even though i'm sure that happened more than once, like with any other ballemaker), just a hypothetic example.

That's my subjective viewik.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Kopaka »

While I do think there's many battles with too short battletime and generally believe that a longer battletime is more "fair" in terms of being less luckbased, I do agree with the point of this thread. I remember being annoyed by certain people constantly complaining about too short battletime. At some point you have to assume that you have been heard or that the designer chooses to ignore you and the complains are no longer serving any purpose other than annoying people. Designers should of course consider listening to player's feedback as they're the ones who have to play them and not the designer. But longer battles can also be offputting due to their longer time commitment, so it's an extremely hard balance to find.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by gimp »

Here's my take on the matter.

I often criticize a battle. Albeit because the level sucks, because its no-gas, too short of time, etc. truthfully deep down though, im just glad there is a battle being made and being played when it comes down to brass tacks. I hope that my criticism only furthers the designers ability to make even better battles in the future, but if i knew my criticism would make them stop making battles, id never of given it. because so many times i come on elma to play a battle and thats what i want to do and its not there. A simple quote which is often said, "beggars cannot be choosers", comes to mind. so how much does your begging correlate to what you really want? perhaps the designer will make battles despite your criticism, in which case your criticism can only help. but if your criticism lessons a designers motive to keep making battles, your criticism becomes very criticized (like from some in this thread).

criticize carefully is my only point here, unless your principles succeed all else.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Madness »

Level makers who are unable to set a proper balletime should be rid of their level editor.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Chris »

Of course battle time can be wrong. From time to time people complain, but I don't think this is big problem as long as it isn't direct attack on some person.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Thundr- »

Complaining about TLs battletimes is about as useless as it can get. You know he makes 5000 battles a year. You know he doesnt give a flying fuck about your balletime complaints on his levs. I'm sure he has heard every conceivable argument, whine and personal assault you can possibly imagine, and if it didnt work the first 5000 times you can be sure he aint magically gonna start listening now.

Unless Kopaka enforces a minimum balletime rule, or give warnings to people who put questionably unfair times on their levs a few times too many. If he aint going to do that then this argument is pretty much settled.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by kuchitsu »

Lousku wrote:I don't see your logic. If the two opinions follow a system, then the critic is in fact repeating the same message.
I think no. That's like saying that if I say my opinion on a certain level then I don't need to tell my opinion on any other levels ever again because you can already deduce what I think about all other levels in the world just based on that one opinion. And again, I never claimed that there IS in fact some system or such. People just feel that certain times suck and they tell you about it, but I doubt that anyone here really thought about this that much to develop a clear system.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by ville_j »

I'm with kuchitsu here. I think it is ok to tell your opinion about balletime just like it is ok to give critique about the level itself and everything. But yes there are many ways to express your opinion and sometimes it is a bit hard to be as appropriate as you should be. I can sometimes write some rude things in chat (though i have not been on eol lately at all), but I'd like to clarify that I never want anyone take it too seriously. If I say "shit lev" or something similar, I don't really expect the designer to magically make much better lev next time, but that shouldn't mean that I can't say it. The same applies to the balletime too in my opinion. This is the internets and an online chat inside a game. Things can get a bit crazy.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

anpdad wrote:There's a certain appeal to short balletimes. Sure, you don't get an amazing winrec,
But isn't it always relative to balletime? An amazing rec from a 20-min balle is not amazing by itself anymore if the lev is höyled for hours after.
anpdad wrote:In my opinion, that would just introduce a lot of stress
Some players might even prefer stressful battles.
anpdad wrote:and randomness
Kopaka wrote:While I do think there's many battles with too short battletime and generally believe that a longer battletime is more "fair" in terms of being less luckbased,
Randomness and luck are not quantifiable. Plus they exist in the player, not the battle. The perfect player would have no problem with what you call luckbased battles. We can watch a player below average skill level and in your terms (if I understand correctly) every battle is luckbased. Is this the battle's fault as well? There is no unfairness when everyone has the same amount of time to play.
Madness wrote:proper balletime
Chris wrote:Of course battle time can be wrong.
You mans still haven't given any reasoning for this.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: You have been heard

Post by anpdad »

Most 20min battle recs driven by above average players are pleasant to watch. But almost no one would ever enjoy a 3min balle winrec and watch it ever after, even if it were insanely good by 3min standards. This leaves some unsatisfaction after the battle, and usually one wouldn't play the level much afterballe without competition. There's not much motivation to do so unless the level is very good. Otherwise I'd play until i get a good run just to remove the unwanted feeling, or live with it :p Hence the "shit time / !rec 3 / ez 28 / got 25:31 10sec after balle" comments that pop up every now and then.

To teh point of stress and randomness - again, TL does it right imo since in his levs usually only a bunch of stress exists, but not much randomness. And even though randomness is not quantifiable, it's unreasonable to not account for it due to the human factor. The easiest example of a luck trick would be some difficult brutal, like in int24. There are a lot of people who can do it reliably, and on a good day even i can do it within 10minutes. But if one were to start a 10min long battle that required a player to pull such a brutal off, most players wouldn't finish, even if all the pros played. Because, with current skill level in the scene, better players have higher chance of executing tricks like that, but they still need to get lucky due to the precision required, and results of a similar battle would vary from day to day. It's just a gamble, controllable to a point. It's an extreme example of course. Non-perfect player needs some time to get the feel of the trick before he's able to execute it. Of course, instead, he could just bruteforce the trick, trying to to just get it by pressing random (to an extent) buttons, while collecting the data on-the-fly and adjusting his keypresses accordingly. Too low balletimes encourage the latter approach, which is nor satisfying neither fair imo.

I agree about randomness existing within a player, not within a lev. But that just means that a good levmaker should understand the difficulty of his level and know how to adjust the balletime accordingly to the players present at the time. This decisionmaking is a function of players' skills, among other parameters. And it's far from being linear. And of course, every battle relies on luck a little, but it doesn't have much say in long battles. By "long" i mean long enough relative to the difficulty of the lev here. The shorter the battletime is, the more powerful luck's impact is, and it gradually increases with each minute you shove of the battle time. At some point it explodes and starts to be the dominant factor in determining the winner (i.e. AKB's bullet battles, or the aforementioned brutallev).


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Re: You have been heard

Post by Chris »

Lousku wrote:
Chris wrote:Of course battle time can be wrong.
You mans still haven't given any reasoning for this.
Firstly what battle? From EOL site:
A battle (nicknamed "balle") is a short unadvertised contest where players play a new external level made by someone else for a short period of time. Statistics are made from the results and are displayed on IRC. The winner is expected to upload a replay of his best time to prove his result. The Mopobattles were a very similar concept. Those battles were bigger due to the advertising made beforehand and there were better statistics available. Nowadays, virtually all battles are played in Elma Online, since stats are created automatically there.
Before Belma and EOL, there was basically only one battle mode (best time or most apples wins) that was played, where each player played the given unforeseen level for the given time and told the best time he got. Nowadays in EOL there are several more battle types, such as first finish (first one to finish wins), one life (you can only play once) and slowness (slowest one to finish wins) among others.
If you take into account only normal battles, but there can also be FF and maybe some others. Either way I would like to narrow it to normal battles. If you give not enough time, even if player starts exactly at 0:00 and drive perfect ride to collect at least one apple or touch flower, this is what I would call wrong battle time. There would no way to rank players, because they would not be able to complete any objective of the battle (in case of normal battle this is most apples or best time). Even if there is battle where everyone has 1 apple, there are still skills needed to take 1 apple first or to realize that this is the only apple in the level or other apples and flowers are impossible. Of course you can say that the battle where everyone has 1 apple had wrong time, but what I'm looking for the most "raw" and unbiased definition of wrong battle time. So concluding it would normal battle where there no way to collect at least 1 apple or touch flower (even if the run starts at 0:00 and it's perfect).

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Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

Thanks for sensible explanation. I'm still not entirely convinced, but something like technocracy probably makes most sense in these politics, and seeing as I don't hev skialz and seem to be the only one with this stance, my onion doesn't really weigh anything.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Grace »

The simple truth is that this is a subjective matter and there is no definition you can provide that will be correct in all cases.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone saying 'balletime too short' just as i don't think there's anything wrong with you complaining about it.

Fairly, Your annoyance at these comments is probably significantly outweighed by these people's cumulative annoyance about balletimes :)

Of course there are situations where balletime is legitimately too short (see chris post) but for the most part I think it's too subjective and comes down to feeling, flow and difficulty. For sure there are levels where i consciously have thought 'needed longer' or something of the sort, but recognise there are certain desirable traits to having extremely short battles as well.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Madness »

But then you should say like "In my opinion, the battle time was too short.", otherwise your statement may simply be incorrect and misleading unless scientifically proven. In my opinion, Lousku is right.
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Re: You have been heard

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AKB and I have made many 1 minute battles, often one after the other. They were really quite addicting and fun and explored a different aspect of battles that was cool. Many times the results showed some randomness and I think more of the players who care about eol rank dont like them because they are more likely to lose. However I remember Markku winning some 5 in a row on them once and there is a definite skill in being able to drive a quick hoyl time in only a minute. AKB was banned from making these anymore, I dont know for sure but I think thats the only instance of a short battle time being enforced. Again probably because people are concerned about the eol rankings.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Lousku »

Madness is stupid.
gimp wrote:AKB was banned from making these anymore
Really? Who banned?
then again i don't know anything
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Re: You have been heard

Post by gimp »

It was a long time ago, and i think only his level designing privileges were banned, maybe kopaka? again im not really sure of any of this because i dont remember.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by roope »

Might have been Jappe I think. But yeah, the few I played were actually really fun and I didn't see the point of them being illegal.
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Re: You have been heard

Post by A.K.B. »

Kopaka banned my privileges for a week or so because of bullet trains. I find the format very accessible and fun. I put effort into each level and made sure there was a unique aspect being explored for the 200+ I have made. I almost feel as if there should be a new battle format available for having multiple levels in a row, each 1 min with perhaps 15-20 seconds between each balle. You would upload all 5-10 Bullet levs into the uploader after selecting the Bullet Train mode and it would balle them in order, one after the other with a shorter wait time between each than the usual 2-3 min. As this would be limited to 10 levs, that would equate to a 15 min balle at maximum (if 30 second delay between bullets were used) and another levmaker could queue their balle as per normal afterwards. I imagine it would work well as it is simply a different format of balle, just as warioware or 4 second madness or whatefak else is a different genre of game.

Discuss. <3
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Hosp »

yes

also I want balle mode where can upload say 5 levels and put maybe 30min balle time then who gets best tt in those 5 levels wins and such kinda stuff hope you get it
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Re: You have been heard

Post by abruzzi »

A.K.B. wrote:Kopaka banned my privileges for a week or so because of bullet trains. I find the format very accessible and fun. I put effort into each level and made sure there was a unique aspect being explored for the 200+ I have made.
Fak all whiners
A.K.B. wrote:I almost feel as if there should be a new battle format available for having multiple levels in a row, each 1 min with perhaps 15-20 seconds between each balle. You would upload all 5-10 Bullet levs into the uploader after selecting the Bullet Train mode and it would balle them in order, one after the other with a shorter wait time between each than the usual 2-3 min. As this would be limited to 10 levs, that would equate to a 15 min balle at maximum (if 30 second delay between bullets were used) and another levmaker could queue their balle as per normal afterwards. I imagine it would work well as it is simply a different format of balle, just as warioware or 4 second madness or whatefak else is a different genre of game.

Discuss. <3

Wow, this and if eol counted points by adding all battle results to one would bring a really new bulletish dimension:) nice, I even think new skill would appear, of actually performing well, not just saying "EZ"
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Re: You have been heard

Post by Chris »

Nice ideas AKB.
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