Apple placement

[kuchitsu]

In some levels apples kinda happen to be along the way and you don't have to do anything special to get them. In other levels "getting close to the apple" and "getting the apple" are two very different goals. Some people complain about apples that can go through your body. Other people consider them a part of the level that you need to "solve". There are many various styles and opinions. Do you guys have any preferences\tips you want to share? I kinda often see comments like "apple placement could be better" but people rarely elaborate on this.

[roope]

It really depends on the situation. In fast cruise speedloops apples that you can go through are the biggest annoyance, and it pretty much works against the whole concept of the lev. More generally, I think it often depends on what's more fun (which is of course subjective), lajk: on an otherwise great lev, why put a very missable/unreachable apple. While you can say "it's part of the lev to have it like this", I think everyone can see why someone would consider that annoying.

It also depends on the battletime if it's a battle, or if it's an external level. External pack levels get more leeway because you have infinite time to find the styles to reach/get that apple, and infinite time to play the lev.

[Orcc]

Driving through the apple is a lot different case than nearly being able to grab the apple. If you drive through the apple it's usually about very minor adjustments which don't really affect your run, you just have a little bad luck and have to start all over. On the other hand if the apple is hard to reach, you're required to do the correct moves to get it, which is usually not as random (ofcoz can be in some cases).

[Polarix]

And of course, many apples can eliminate routes. Can be good, might be bad.

[Lousku]

There was some nab in EOL called gioel who started internal "remixes" where he had simpli spammed apples along the most obvious nab routes.

Examples:
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/42538
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/50278
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/53355

Not only does this limit routes, but because there are so many apples along the routes, it limits styles within the routes too.

Another example is Csaba's WCup605:
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/241791

Take it as you will, maybe sach design is preferable to someone. An awkward apple placement might bring up some weird style to pick it that would've been irrelevant without the "unnecessary" apple being there. Depends on too many things to make any blanket statement.

[Pab]

I remember playing a ramones FF that was at least over 5 minutes, and the flower would go through your body if you didn't move, and it was very fast ending, and there was a wall after the flower, and i died... and we are talking about ramone! Sometimes its just a mistake and it happens.

Talking about what lousku said, i remember being angry at zero once for making levels with apples in every single route of the level, for me it creates kind of a negative feeling of "there is potential for multiple routes and styles, and that would be fun, but apple placements ruin it", but it doesn't have to mean the level sucks, no one discuesses that zero is now one of the best designers ever

So imo in a battle, if an apple placement is good or not can depend on many things like the way one think about it, maybe even your mood at the moment. Sometimes im in a mood of playing watever comes just like it is, and i dont care about what could be different on the level, if there is a shit spot or apple it would be just a challenge.

And for more examples on Lousku comment, just look at any TL level the definition of unlogical apple spam.

[Madness]

The most stupid apple in internals: first apple in Quick Round

[Polarix]

The most stupid apple in internals: first apple in Quick Round

haha so true.

[pawq]

I think it's one of the most important things in levmaking!!! I am guilty of badly placed apples in cruise ffs, where they could either be easily missed, or driven through... Well, let's just say I got the shitstorm I deserved :D

When making levs I'm spending quite a bit of time thinking about where to put apples so that 1. they encourage people to explore the lev, 2. they don't limit possible styles/routes.

Apples that are hard to reach - fine, your bounce wasn't strong enough.

Apples that you can drive through on a flat ground - I don't even