elma 1.2 final is cheat?

ribot · Post by **ribot** » 21 Oct 2004, 10:19

i haven't really checked this patch out much before, but still i couldnt find any topic about if this is cheat.

i do know that many ppl think alovolt is cheat, and i think it quite obviously is, because warm up wr has decreased with almost 0.1 seconds since it came out.

then other features like replay fast forwarding/slow motion/rewinding will make you be able to watch recs a lot more carefully, being able to copy styles more easily.

level unlocking, this is a cheat that lets you edit levels that the author has locked, which means he doesn't want you to edit it. it's good for practicing parts of levels that are very hard. it's also a cheat that has been out there for a long time, that Abula's team probably have used a long time before everybody else got to use it.

resolution. this is funny, i mentioned this in the #across IRC chat channel and they didn't seem to be able to imagine how this is helpful for getting better results in elma. i wonder what resolution is there for if not getting better results? then i will paste my points about why resolution is cheat:

<miantiaor> so mach easier to overview the lev like this
<miantiaor> and make better styler
<oussy> you could just look at the lev with editor :S
<miantiaor> yes i could but you cant overview the level the same way
<miantiaor> you cant see on a map or in the editor if a jump is too high
<miantiaor> also when you play you see exactly how far it is to the next trick, which you dont see in normal resolution
<miantiaor> it gives you a lot more precision
<miantiaor> i can suddenly do tricks i couldnt earlier
<Karlis> HÃ¶yl warm up wr and think again
<miantiaor> well it's a good change anyway
<miantiaor> well this cheat is more for making new styles
<miantiaor> if you read what i said you can understand that it doesnt affect warm up much

in warm up you dont need to see so much of the level while playing. but in longer levels you might not know every vertex that will come, and then when you see them earlier you will adjust earlier tricks so that you get into right position for new tricks.

all these changes might seem like small things, and since so many ppl already use this they will not think it is cheat. my friend the human is like this, that he explains the world as a reflection of his own ideas, and he if doesnt want to be a cheater because it makes him feel bad he will do everything to come up with reasons why he isn't.

but don't worry so much about it. i find these changes good. it makes my elma experience much better. and cheating is not very hard anyway, even if you exclude this patch. milagros and hibernatus have both made their cheating tools that they dont know how to detect. (isn't it funny that they are still allowed to make WR:s, but i'm the bad guy for asking them to get a copy?)

if you want a game that shouldnt be easy to cheat on, you should first make up your mind about what is cheating. yes FIRST. you cant make it up now about things like mentioned here that you didnt think of before, at least if you want to have these kinds of rules that Abula wants to have. then when you know that, you need a version of the game which actually is hard to cheat on. we are using computers here brethren. they still can't make safe sites for bank accounts, do you think they can make safe uncheatable games? think again. i mean don't think. you need to go deeper here pal.

my word is my blood.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 21 Oct 2004, 12:44

higher resolutions suck, maybe it help is multi
no need in single

Post by **Abula** » 21 Oct 2004, 13:00

To ribot:

Moposite still doesn't support 1.2. Also I don't use it myself. So there you can forget MY rules. Hib spread the 1.2 to people via GuyB's site and I wasn't able to affect to it. And I'm not saying here whether I like or dislike the patch. Or whether is it cheat or not. Some of my multi times have been driven in mr's Elma and it is 1.2.

Also if you meant FM when saying Abula's team you got it wrong again. It may be hard to believe but I don't give or haven't given any advantages to my team, FM. Many people had the unlocker before me for example.

And why mila and Hib are allowed to play eventhough they have cheat tools and you are not allowed to get it. It's because we cannot accuse mila / Hib for cheating untill they are proof to cheat. On the other hand you really can't take off the tools from them. On the third hand they both have programmed anti-cheat tools. I don't say that for example you would use them but the thurth is that the less people have those bad tools the better it is. That's what I think. Many people (also better friends of mine than you are) have asked for those programs, saveload etc, but I won't spread them. Come to FEM and you might see them and even try but not copy.

I see you don't want me to be authority but what's your solution to make "the rules"? They have to be decided by someone.

MJXII · Post by **MJXII** » 21 Oct 2004, 16:19

Alovolt isn't a cheat because you could do with with elma 1.11a.

sierra · Post by **sierra** » 21 Oct 2004, 23:58

and alo doesn't allow you to do anything that couldn't be done before

ribot · Post by **ribot** » 22 Oct 2004, 10:18

Abula wrote: Moposite still doesn't support 1.2. Also I don't use it myself. So there you can forget MY rules.

Your rules are about world records, not about who spreads the software.

Abula wrote: Also if you meant FM when saying Abula's team you got it wrong again. It may be hard to believe but I don't give or haven't given any advantages to my team, FM. Many people had the unlocker before me for example.

Yes I did mean FM, and I have better friends than you who think that FM used unlock in world cup when it wasnt public, and they had to spend hours to make a similar level to world cup level to practice.

Abula wrote: I see you don't want me to be authority but what's your solution to make "the rules"? They have to be decided by someone.

I don't really mind you being authority, because I don't think records are any important. I already said that the rules have to be made before situations to happen. Otherwise they are less fair rules than if you decide them, because they are rules that you decide depending on who happens to be in the situation.

But my post wasn't directed to you really Abula. Some things were, but mainly I wanted to raise the issue of this program.

Sierra for example says that nothing can be done now that couldn't be done without the alovolt patch. It is also true with a save and load patch (as long as you don't change physics [gfx settings] of elma between loads). You can't make illegal times with save and load, because you do things that are possible with elma, according to these logics.

As usual though, the general public don't have a clue of most things I'm talking about. If you let a thousand ppl play elma normally, for one year, and then let a thousand ppl play it with these features of elma 1.2, who do you think would have best total time? Group elma 1.1a or 1.2?

Maybe you still can't see it. So what? At least you might have reached some insight, even if you think i'm wrong and are very upset right now.

Post by **Abula** » 22 Oct 2004, 12:21

I don't know anyone who wanted the unlocker but didn't get it. It has been spread widely during the years. It has always been concerned to be half-allowed. It's like warez Elma. Hopefully you have bought Elma but we won't kill you if you hadn't.

Still what's your solution to make the rules? There shouldn't be any rules when it's too late to decide them?

My opinion is that there should be some Elma coverment to decide about these things but it wouldn't work anyway. There isn't any official agency now. If some dude decided to spread some new undetectable cheating tool he can do it. Same with new patches / programs. There is no Elma laws. Only some unwritten laws which are accepted by the majority.

ribot · Post by **ribot** » 22 Oct 2004, 14:52

i wanted the unlocker and didn't get it... and others too.

about the rules, do you allow elma 1.2 or not?

but i dont have any solution with rules. however i can tell you what's bad about whichever you find, because they relate to how you think things will happen rather than what will happen. but solution with rules? i doubt i will ever find it.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 22 Oct 2004, 15:07

abula haven't made any action regarding elma 1.2 legalize/illegalize. Same time Hibernatus and Milagros works for the anticheat programs for WR's. And the other of those guys has made this elma 1.2 . And apparently abula haven't asked any detector for elma1.2 .. so if abula had decided to illegalize elma1.2 he might have asked a detector for recs done with 1.2. .... So this inactivity seems like he accepts the recs because he have a tool (if needed) to illegalize elmor1.2

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 22 Oct 2004, 20:39

I don't see elma 1.2 as a cheat, but as an improvement of elma. It's has evolved from 1.1 to 1.2 but by another author. It's just like church.

Post by **Abula** » 22 Oct 2004, 21:29

Yes I don't mind whether people use 1.2 or not. I don't use it just because I haven't bothered to install it to my 30 Elmas. Why it's not on Mopo? Not sure if there is some bug free version...

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 24 Oct 2004, 19:34

Ye I guess that the maker and author of the game who own the rights etc ---> Balazs ----> is only person to make any official updates to the game. All the other updates and changes are in a way unofficial...

balazs has given a permission to abula and px to hold wr-tibl - They have only been running the table and being the judger whether some recs are cheats or nat so I guess they have stayed out of contradicting rules.

So if they followed the *rules that are official they should not accept recs that have been made with an unofficial elmiz version

Personally I don't have an opinion on elma1.2 usage on official WR's. But on battles and all the cool unofficial games and things I accept it because it is not a contest that balazs has started so it is logical to keep it legal if we wanna decide so, and so far nobody have wanted to ban it so I guess it works.
..but on wr-table, I guess abula or pexi should ask balazs to get permission to have a right to make decisions concerningn unofficial patches or they should simply ask the balazs if he accepts that unofficial patch.

* "rules that are official" = not correct terms in use here, but it means that when someone has made a game , it is his games until he tells otherwise or sells it. And from the begin they used to have a WR-table. So the game itself is official and the wr-table is official. And official wr-table needs official bingobangobong .....................

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 24 Oct 2004, 19:43

That last line persuaded me...
And I still think elma 1.2 is good

Post by **Abula** » 24 Oct 2004, 22:21

Of course we asked Bala when first unofficial patches came. His official opinion is: "No comments". We also know his unofficial opinion but it's secret.

And after all we can't detect whether people use 1.2 or not.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 24 Oct 2004, 23:01

ok wel it strange if hib and mila can't make a detector when hib created it...
and balazs thing sounds like it aind so important to him so I guess you call it legal on wr-tables until balazs says otherwise
ez ez

___________________________________________________________
healer- 1000 years

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 25 Oct 2004, 01:07

disallowing 1.2 is just stupid

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 25 Oct 2004, 08:39

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 25 Oct 2004, 10:02

px started that contest of best totaltime in internals... and px and abu or some bingos who ever started best country records in internal levs, now they are held by px and abula.. but it doesn't matter who started them because they were started unofficially anyway. And still they are unofficial, you can start your own best totaltimes list you wane but ppl gonna send in to moposite probably :)
<- to those lists the owner of the list can decide whether elm1.2 can be used without asking balazs.... that's if the logic I described in earlier posts is applied so, at least it makes sense in a way..

SpeaK · Post by **SpeaK** » 25 Oct 2004, 16:48

BarTek wrote:I started to play elma beacuse it was

- simple, but complicated to master

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now it has just become:

- complicated, and complicated to master (liek quake3 etc)

Could you please tell me what has exactly more complicated than before in playing elma?

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 25 Oct 2004, 18:53

Damn, n00bs just download the official version so it's still simple, yet difficult to master.

chux · Post by **chux** » 27 Oct 2004, 01:00

I use 1.2...its good...

The resolution thing is a bit of a strange one in terms of rules and 'legalities', but if everyone has the same advantage, or at least the option to have the sam advantage as everyone else then surely its ok...?

AtmaWeapon · Post by **AtmaWeapon** » 31 Oct 2004, 18:00

I didn't like the 1.2 patch. The higher resolution doesn't look nicer, and none of the other features appeal to my taste, so I run the the official version instead.
The Alovolt thing is cheating, though, because it's not supposed to be that easy, and the alovolt is really a bug, so basically it shouldn't be used at all.
BTW: Abula, why do you have 30 Elmas?

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 31 Oct 2004, 20:10

The alovolt key isnt cheat because it doesnt make faster stuff possible, it just makes some new styles more hoylable.
And alovolt a bug???? omfg lol !! stupidest thing ive ever heard!!!!!

Post by **SveinR** » 31 Oct 2004, 23:16

Juski wrote: And alovolt a bug???? omfg lol !! stupidest thing ive ever heard!!!!!

The supervolt is essentially a bug. Or, it was a bug in across.

AtmaWeapon, I wouldn't say the alovolt button is cheating as it does not make something possible that wasn't possible before, but makes the game more fair for everyone since now everyone can do it. People did the alovolt before any patches came as well, just that the ability to do it varied very very much on different computers.

Post by **Abula** » 1 Nov 2004, 00:49

Off-topic:

AtmaWeapon wrote:BTW: Abula, why do you have 30 Elmas?

Easier to manage Moposite stuff when I have own Elma for OLP, Lost Internals, Hoyla Mission, Professional replays, etc etc. Also for own internal playing, external playing, battles etc. I can make a list one day if somebody is interested in.

KD · Post by KD » 4 Nov 2004, 15:43

I think a button for making alovolt is a way of cheating, if thats not provided for everyone. Since it is, i think its not cheating, more than an extension of the game experience.
I don't see how 1.2 makes elma more complicated in any way. You have to configure the program once, then just play like 1.0, only the alo button and merge option is there...
Btw i use 1024 with 1.5 zoom, so i see less space than 640 without zooming....is it cheating too?

(BarTek will say: of course it is, because you see more in details, you can control more precisely your bike, etc etc.

)

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 8 Nov 2004, 21:13

I think elma 1.2 final is a cheat since I use elma 1.2 beta!!1

Flat · Post by **Flat** » 16 Mar 2005, 16:06

hmm, i just wanted to mention :
i've been always playing elma 1.11 where there is no option for changing resolution... i played it at two different computers (both times version 1.11) and for some unknown reason i had different resolution at second one. does it mean the second computer is a cheat as it allows me to see more of the lev allowing me to prepare for unknown vertexes better etc. etc. ??
i'm sure elma 1.2 is not cheat ! ;]

A.K.B. · Post by **A.K.B.** » 5 Oct 2006, 10:45

OMG, I dug up this thread and I'm like, WHOA ribot is SACH SHITHEAD.

ez nat cheat, wtf.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 5 Oct 2006, 16:26

You can have a society where everyone looks in the same direction, or you can have a more diverse society, with opinion. People you disagree with are not OMG EZ complete SACH shitheads all of sudden.

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 5 Oct 2006, 17:48

Ribot is/was one of the coolest guys in the elma scene.
Ribzor PLEASE COME BACK!

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 5 Oct 2006, 19:01

Xiphias wrote:Ribot is/was one of the coolest guys in the elma scene.
Ribzor PLEASE COME BACK!

He's banned..