elma2 rendered by 3D chip

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 20 Jun 2005, 22:50

the GUI of Mac OS X is rendered by the 3D chip on the gfx card. I'm not exactly sure is this makes the GUI 3D or 2D, technically speaking, so i'm not proposing to make the next elma a 3D game, just let the 3D chip do the job.

this would open for some neat possibilities, like being able to use anisotrophic and antialiasing filters on the game graphics. as this would not be controlled by the game itself, but rather the gfx card drivers, it wouldn't make the game unplayable on older computers with limited processing power. it could even be optional to let either the 2D or 3D part of the gfx card do the rendering of the graphics. it is important to note that these filters would greatly reduce FPS rate on the game, but you wouldn't be forced to use it. you CAN use it if you have available processing power (much less than what's needed for CS and other 1st person shooters, to compare). i know people wouldn't want the game to require loads of cpu power, ram and other hardware resources, and it wouldn't. it would be optional, not from within the game, but through adjusting your 3D gfx card driver's settings.

maybe i'm overseeing something here, maybe it wouldn't even be possible to render elma2 with the 3D chip. maybe it wouldn't be possible to have the option between 2D and 3D rendering (although i've played games in the past which could). any thoughts?

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 21 Jun 2005, 01:08

you forgot to mention that sugar prices in sudan are rising

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 21 Jun 2005, 01:22

"wtf", the cornerstone of any intelligent conversation.

i mean, please, if you don't know what i'm talking about don't bother to reply. if you want to know what i'm talking about, ask. if you don't know what i'm talking about, don't want to know AND don't give a s**t, why even bother wasting valuable time replying?

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 21 Jun 2005, 01:55

So you want to send a request for Balazs so that he uses the 3d-engine.
For me anything is good. It's not even clear he is going to make one, never know.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 21 Jun 2005, 03:41

no, i'm not going to request anything. i'm not even going to suggest it to him. i am not talking about a 3D engine. im talking about rendering the graphics with the 3D chip, or the gpu if you like. a 3D engine involves three dimmensional space, in which elma would be nothing like the game it is today. i think the next elma should still be a two dimmensional game, only with gpu rendered graphics. i am only concerned with making the graphics look more smooth, with less jagged edges. just mentioning 3D seems to make people think i want 3D graphics. a 3D graphics card doesn't have to render everything in 3D, it has the ability to do so. if you have a 3D card, your 3D games are rendered in 3D, but your windows desktop is still 2D. think of my suggestions as applying the smooth graphics of windows to the elma game. 2D, but with smooth transitions between colors. and, please, don't read this as that i want windows itself in elma. just compare the graphics smoothness in windows with the jagges lines in present day elma.

that's it. no 3D, no completely different elma game, just plain good graphics like you expect from present day games.

and if people are out there playing 3D games and doesn't have a clue about what antialiasing and anisotrophic filtering is, they are missing out on some HUGELY improved graphics in their games. it's like having a porsche supercar with the gearbox of your average 1980 pick-up truck. if someone out there has one of the newest state-of-the-art gfx cards like the nVidia 6800GT or the latest ATI cards, and hasn't experimented with those filters for their games, i'd say (personally) that they only see about 60% of their cards potential for cool graphics.

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 21 Jun 2005, 04:15

sounds smart, would like to have a sight of what it really would be like

do you mean there would be like a "depth" like... the one in super smash bros (in some way)

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 21 Jun 2005, 04:46

no, there's no depth involved. it sure would be interesting to see this game in real 3D, but it's hard to imageine how it should be done. it ssems i should stop using the term 3D altogether, people get me wrong. think of the game just the way it is today, totally flat graphics. now, imagine that instead of the usual way the game graphics are rendered, the 3D chip should do the job, still totally flat graphics. no depth at all. when it's done this way, you can apply something called antialiasing and anisotrophic filtering. never mind just what those terms mean exactly. you don't need to know. all you need to know is that the graphics will be smoother, without all those edgy/jagged lines that are in the game today.

the graphics in today's elma are a result of the way your computer displays graphics on the screen. to fully understand this you need to know that EVERYTHING you ever see on a monitor are made out of small squares or "boxes" of different color. if you have windows, open up the drawing program "Paint", zoom in and draw a diagonal line. diagonal means from the lower left corner to the upper right corner, or vice versa. then you will see those edges i'm talking about. now, if you have that kind of graphics in a game and you add those filters i talked about, they will fade the edges into eachother to make the image smoother. sort of like bluring them together.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 21 Jun 2005, 07:46

So, what's your suggestion? That we all should use anti-aliasing?

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 21 Jun 2005, 12:09

what's the point? would that change the playability? does someone seriously care about having anti-aliasing and pixel shading in water textures in a fucking 2d game like elma? hell no. anyway, how are you going to influence the development of elma 2 with your intellectual masturbation if you won't even contact balazs?

dz · Post by dz » 21 Jun 2005, 12:53

So as far as I understood your point all you want (in the end) is better looking graphics?

zworqy · Post by **zworqy** » 21 Jun 2005, 13:07

If I understood correctly, the point is you get smoother and faster rendered graphis, which is good in a game like Elma.

dz · Post by dz » 21 Jun 2005, 13:13

But he also stated that it would reduce FPS by alot. Well I don't say elma has problems with FPS in general, it's just that the game itself is too easily affected by external things. This will hopefully be fixed in the future releases.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 21 Jun 2005, 13:20

graphics rendering is not the part of the prog, that takes much time
so there would be no difference

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 21 Jun 2005, 16:44

so sweetest graphics would make the game more good-looking, which would, in general, be a good thing, now, would it affect the gameplay in some way? like vsync on/off

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 21 Jun 2005, 17:56

8-ball wrote:you forgot to mention that sugar prices in sudan are rising

nice job editing your reply afterwards. 12 year olds have been known to do that.

8-ball wrote:what's the point? would that change the playability? does someone seriously care about having anti-aliasing and pixel shading in water textures in a fucking 2d game like elma? hell no.

just because you don't see the point doesn't mean there isn't a good reason to change something. in general, all gamers like the idea that the next game in line will have better graphics than the previous, why shouldn't a "fucking 2D game like elma" get better graphics? because you don't see the point?

yeah, i'd like better graphics in the next elma, and that is all this post is about.

8-ball wrote: how are you going to influence the development of elma 2 with your intellectual masturbation if you won't even contact balazs?

as elma2 apparently is already in the works, making this suggestion could cause a number of negative situations, like the game being postponed. i'm not even sure balazs would be able to do it. anyway, it was just an idea. if it doesn't come with elma2 then maybe in elma3, who knows? i presented the idea, and someone close to balazs might like it and suggest it to him, which would weigh more than a simple e-mail from me. but i won't be angry or disappointed or anything if it doesn't become a reality, because, it was just an idea.

if you have the slightest idea of the meaning of what masturbation is, you would know it means to please onself by stroking ones penis. since we are talking about intellectual masturbation, the penis is removed and replaced with text. alas, i'm pleasing myself by writing. and someone seems to dislike that alot. if you are so smart that you can identify, in your words, intellectual masturbation, surely you possess to come up with a more thought through reply than "wtf"?

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 21 Jun 2005, 20:01

I'd like to point out here that Albert Einstein's quote:

Code: Select all

Great spirits have always encountered violent
oppostion from mediocre minds.

Maybe you can email Balazs to tell him to take a look at this topic, if he didn't already do.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 21 Jun 2005, 23:03

do the masses play elma cause it has kickass graphics?? why would that change in elma 2.. if you take a slight look at the regular to-do list for elma 2 then nobody cares about better graphics, how about concentrate on something like new internals, statistics and online mode? imho, all that should be changed with graphics is adding a couple more colours possible in LGR pictures and a few more textures and default pics.. sure you can have your own opinion about how important graphics are to kuskis but lemme guess, you've played too much half life 2.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 21 Jun 2005, 23:22

as stated earlier, it is indeed my personal opinion. i also stated that better graphics, if implemented, maybe should be optional. nobody would be forced to use it, but those like me, who enjoy beautiful visuals, could have the option.

and no, half life never appealed to me. never played it. but i have seen the graphics in that game, and if you compare it to Doom 1 you see where i'm going with this.

anyway, if not a single soul in the elma community ever wanted better graphics, that doesn't stop me from hoping for it.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 22 Jun 2005, 00:48

got teh at first time but used word 'engine' in wrong place instead of 'chip'. I have another question on this: How much 'heavier' the game will become? I mean, I want the new elma still be running smoothly on my P2 400mhz 128mb ram with Matrox G200 graphics card.

Also, I guess elma could be coaler to be implemented in stuff like mobile game stationz or phones or smth coal instead of going hardcore. But if it could still run on my 400mhz, I guess I would like to see it.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 00:55

onlainari wrote:got teh at first time but used word 'engine' in wrong place instead of 'chip'. I have another question on this: How much 'heavier' the game will become? I mean, I want the new elma still be running smoothly on my P2 400mhz 128mb ram with Matrox G200 graphics card.

Also, I guess elma could be coaler to be implemented in stuff like mobile game stationz or phones or smth coal instead of going hardcore. But if it could still run on my 400mhz, I guess I would like to see it.

how much "heavier" the game would be depends on a lot of things, like how detailed the creator of the game/graphics makes them. regarding the filters i talked about, you can set the level of those accroding to you hardware specs. you could for example try with antialiasing at 4x and anisotrophic at 4x. if that made the game stutter, you could reduce one or both to 2x. remember that those filters are not controlled by the game (although they can be), so if you only had enough power to run the game in default mode, you could do so.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 22 Jun 2005, 01:22

but it is going to be heavier than elastomania is ? it could create some problems :X Well, that pc can run vp3 game quite ok which uses direct 3d and all teh fakcs tho

..only thing that matters to everyone yes.... is that it works on onlainaris old pc ok

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 22 Jun 2005, 15:00

doom1 is better than half life2 =)

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 15:24

Zweq wrote:doom1 is better than half life2 =)

this is surely a matter of personal opinion, and i guess you reffer to playability on this one :)

what really interresting about games is that graphics often isn't really a factor when it comes to how much each person likes a game or not. speaking for myself, i admit that old games on c64, amiga and early pc games were much more addictive than today's modern games. take Max Payne for example, i only played a few levels before i got bored, but i wanted to see the whole story of the game so i applied cheats just to run quickly through it. a high budget game doesn't neccessarily guarantee playability, and a good storyline is often more important than nice graphics.

in my opinion elma has all the playability it will ever need, so adding nice graphics won't ruin the game.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » 22 Jun 2005, 16:24

Jesus such jidderish about blahblahblah, personally, isn't it enough just telling us you'd like to see a more powerful engine used in another version of elma, than to try and teach us how to create one? Seriously, keep the facking Carmack-wannabe behaviour outta this. I play elma

infected · Post by **infected** » 22 Jun 2005, 18:27

yesh you ONLY play elma and ALYAWS complain on everybody else opinion about something

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 22 Jun 2005, 19:12

Ooh, I thought you were trying to convince us to set our cards to higher times anti-aliasing and anisotrophic, which I had as default for quite some time. That itself doesn't improve the game so much, I think. I haven't tried elma with 2Ã— yet, it was always on 8Ã—. Does it matter?
I did turn it lower for GTA, and honestly, that game is much more enjoyable with everything running exactly good, with no lags and stuff.
I guess that there will be a higher FPS for elma too now, I'll try in a week.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 20:23

Luther wrote:Jesus such jidderish about blahblahblah, personally, isn't it enough just telling us you'd like to see a more powerful engine used in another version of elma, than to try and teach us how to create one? Seriously, keep the facking Carmack-wannabe behaviour outta this. I play elma

where exactly did i try to teach you anything? and nobody is forcing you to read anything, let alone commenting on it. and it's not the engine i'm talking about, it's the graphics. learn the difference before flaming.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 20:24

tijsjoris wrote:Ooh, I thought you were trying to convince us to set our cards to higher times anti-aliasing and anisotrophic, which I had as default for quite some time. That itself doesn't improve the game so much, I think. I haven't tried elma with 2Ã— yet, it was always on 8Ã—. Does it matter?
I did turn it lower for GTA, and honestly, that game is much more enjoyable with everything running exactly good, with no lags and stuff.
I guess that there will be a higher FPS for elma too now, I'll try in a week.

as far as i know those filters doesn't do anything to the present elma.

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 20:26

stANGer wrote:yesh you ONLY play elma and ALYAWS complain on everybody else opinion about something

do i complain about anybodys opinion? where? besides, learn the meaning of the word OPTIONAL.

Post by **SveinR** » 22 Jun 2005, 22:00

AusDerReihe wrote:
stANGer wrote:yesh you ONLY play elma and ALYAWS complain on everybody else opinion about something
do i complain about anybodys opinion? where? besides, learn the meaning of the word OPTIONAL.

stANGer might have made a comment to Luther. Again shows the importance of quoting the text one is replying too

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 22 Jun 2005, 22:04

i'm sorry, i was sure it was directed at me.

infected · Post by **infected** » 23 Jun 2005, 00:12

nah was to luther, only to lazy to quote it =)

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 23 Jun 2005, 13:03

AusDerReihe wrote:as far as i know those filters doesn't do anything to the present elma.

Now I finally got your point. How do you get it so, that it becomes applyable to elma?

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 23 Jun 2005, 13:20

tijsjoris wrote:
AusDerReihe wrote:as far as i know those filters doesn't do anything to the present elma.
Now I finally got your point. How do you get it so, that it becomes applyable to elma?

that's the whole idea about this post. make the 3D chip do the job so that the filters can be applied. i'm starting to think that i might have been a bit to complex in my explanation, which ironically, was meant to prevent confusion.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 23 Jun 2005, 13:59

I understand. When you can pick your own choice, it wouldn't do any harm for people who wouldn't want it. But I wonder how easy it is to let the graphics rendered by certain parts of a gfx card, I really have no knowledge whatsoever about that stuff.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 23 Jun 2005, 14:04

Playing elma with modern 3d graphics whatsoever could be rather nice I think.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 23 Jun 2005, 14:15

Kopaka wrote:Playing elma with modern 3d graphics whatsoever could be rather nice I think.

Eh? I think you're missing some screws in your interpretation machine.

ribot · Post by **ribot** » 23 Jun 2005, 15:08

good point about the 3d chip doing the job. at least working with modern direct3d like hge for example. but it's balazs who makes the game and he doesnt listen to his audience.

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 23 Jun 2005, 17:30

tijsjoris wrote:
Kopaka wrote:Playing elma with modern 3d graphics whatsoever could be rather nice I think. :P
Eh? I think you're missing some screws in your interpretation machine.

Tijs when your making jokes i think you should add smileys or noone will get that it is irony :P

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 23 Jun 2005, 18:02

ribot wrote:but it's balazs who makes the game and he doesnt listen to his audience.

doesn't he?

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 23 Jun 2005, 20:14

Juski wrote:Tijs when your making jokes i think you should add smileys or noone will get that it is irony

I was bloody serious there, [cry].

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 26 Sep 2005, 08:29

AusDerReihe, I don"t know if you're still in the scene but you defenitely should talk of that to Balazs about your idea : thumbs up

AusDerReihe · Post by **AusDerReihe** » 26 Sep 2005, 23:10

twipley wrote:AusDerReihe, I don"t know if you're still in the scene but you defenitely should talk of that to Balazs about your idea : thumbs up

i'm still here, just having some time off from elma.

i stillt hink it would be nice if the game had an option to be rendered by the 3D chip, but i realise that if Balazs really wanted suggestions for the next version of the game i think he would either have replied to some of the suggestions made on this site, or started a new thread where he asked for input. there might be one such thread on these forums, but i have never seen it.

Balazs might already be developing the next version, if we believe the roumours, and if that is the case i think a suggestion like this might be a little late.

twipley · Post by **twipley** » 27 Sep 2005, 00:01

I just think you have nothing to lose: do what you want.

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 27 Sep 2005, 10:14

I sent balazs a mail. he told me that it would soon be finish.. 4 months ago he said it would take around 3-4 months... so maybe. hopefully soon finished.

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 27 Sep 2005, 10:19

seeing how low wr total time can go would be almost more interesting, assuming there will be new internals