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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 15:52 
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When I press "c" in menu where I change players controls it just closes the window :(

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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 16:17 
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Yeah same here, I think Smibu is already aware of this though:
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* If you're writing in a textbox and press a key that happens to be a shortcut for some button, the button gets clicked


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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 18:38 
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Ruben wrote:
Mac support coming? I'll gladly test.
Should be possible. Googling a bit, osxcross seems to be a good tool for it. No Mac support so far because you're the first to ask it, AFAIK :)

Anyone else got Mac?

Ruben wrote:
Remapping of controls is a pain, because you can't map an already used key, so you'll have to find where it's used and change it. Ez fix with simple dialouge box that asks "Do you want to override?"
Yep.

Chris & kuchitsu: Yea.


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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 19:06 
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Smibu wrote:
Should be possible. Googling a bit, osxcross seems to be a good tool for it. No Mac support so far because you're the first to ask it, AFAIK :)

Anyone else got Mac?


A few years ago I tried finding a Mac port, but all I could find was other people asking for the same. Some other people said "no, doesn't exist" and promply pointed them in the direction of Xmoto. And let's be honest, that's one shitty game. A native Mac version of Elma 2 (with support) would maybe bring back some superold players who were distraught by this. Steam distribution would help a lot too, but it doesn't seem to me like Balasz would allow that.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 17:27 
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I don't like the interface.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 18:08 
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I agree with Madness.
Please try to make as genuine elma feel as possible but with more options osv (menus i mean)

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 21:49 
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Of course these mans hev nothing practical to suggest, just the inevitable resistance to change.

New, better things are bad because they're new, and where are the bouncing balls in the background and what the hell, is that a cursor? Get rid of it! But make it so that it's still as functional without it!

It's inevitable, but impasibel to listen to. But nobody will stop playing the game because you made a functional interface instead of copying whatever Balazs made.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 22:02 
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Lousku wrote:
Of course these mans hev nothing practical to suggest, just the inevitable resistance to change.

New, better things are bad because they're new, and where are the bouncing balls in the background and what the hell, is that a cursor? Get rid of it! But make it so that it's still as functional without it!

It's inevitable, but impasibel to listen to. But nobody will stop playing the game because you made a functional interface instead of copying whatever Balazs made.

I agree that people shouldn't just whine about Do this/Do that to the developers, but from a design point of view the interface doesn't look very nice. But who's going to pay real designers for this project? :P


I tested the new version very quickly as most issues are already known/old. It runs super smooth on Windows 7, top notch!

I found one bug/issue with keyboard:
I can't hit Enter to restart run if I simultaneously hold down the following combinations (UP ARROW + SPACE BAR and UP ARROW+ RIGHT ARROW). On the other hand UP ARROW + LEFT VOLT works fine as well as (UP ARROW + B). Other combinations might work/not work of course.
This is a big issue for levels where you have to restart a level with certain movements from the start :(


One question: What does the Const FPS mean? What is the difference when this is enabled?

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 22:15 
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Xiphias wrote:
I agree that people shouldn't just whine about Do this/Do that to the developers, but from a design point of view the interface doesn't look very nice. But who's going to pay real designers for this project? :P
Do you mean purely the visuals (TaharezLook - discussed recently in this tropic) or something else about the design of the interface?
Xiphias wrote:
I found one bug/issue with keyboard:
I can't hit Enter to restart run if I simultaneously hold down the following combinations (UP ARROW + SPACE BAR and UP ARROW+ RIGHT ARROW). On the other hand UP ARROW + LEFT VOLT works fine as well as (UP ARROW + B). Other combinations might work/not work of course.
All of those work here. Do the same combos work for you in original Elma with that same setup (keyboard etc)?

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 23:44 
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It's not just the visuals, whatever design they make for that kinda interface is gonna be bad imo.
Also I was one of those wanting 'ghost rider' in the past but now I feel that it will only be huge advantage in making WRs and stuff and disrespectful to current WR holders

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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 01:46 
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Current wr holders can use it too so.. Also there is rec merge which is almost same. Maybe ghost bike will be a confusor since you cant fuck your brain not to check it and it can cause a fuckup on current run. Will be interesting at least.

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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 11:22 
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It's a valid concern, however I'm afraid it's about 15 years too late to express it. Just think about it: compared to the players from 2000 we have increased screen resolution, an easy alovolt button, save-load that allows much easier style testing, an option for using default ground\sky so your eyes don't bleed in Headbanger, FPS limiter, easy vsync on\off, etc, etc, etc. Playing Elma is becoming more and more convenient with years and I don't see why the progress should suddenly stop with this particular feature. Yes, it's a bit sad that modern players are in a such an advantageous position compared to the pioneers of the game but what can you do at this point? Obviously people prefer convenience over using outdated software just to show respect to the pioneers.

You can find similar debates in the Doom speedrunning scene. Somehow the "official" competition that only acknowledges the original doom2.exe from 1994 is still alive but only a few players participate in it. Most people use modified source ports that allow changing resolution, showing timer and other statistics on screen, more customization, etc. The "purists" are generally seen as freaky dinosaurs but they are respected I think.


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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 23:41 
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Well ye is true points kuchi, guess will only use ghost bikes when very höyl anyways not in regular balle (that much at least) osv

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PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 22:56 
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Lousku wrote:
Of course these mans hev nothing practical to suggest, just the inevitable resistance to change.

New, better things are bad because they're new, and where are the bouncing balls in the background and what the hell, is that a cursor? Get rid of it! But make it so that it's still as functional without it!

It's inevitable, but impasibel to listen to. But nobody will stop playing the game because you made a functional interface instead of copying whatever Balazs made.

New things are better, because they are new, yes. And those people who don't like something that's new, they are just fanatical pathological neophobes who resist any change whatsoever, yes. Let's torture and then hang these dangerous fanatics, shall we?

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 01:22 
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My point is you're not contributing anything at all by saying "I don't like this." At least say what you don't like about it. Bonus points for suggesting something better.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 10:33 
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Lousku wrote:
My point is you're not contributing anything at all by saying "I don't like this." At least say what you don't like about it. Bonus points for suggesting something better.

I believe something that has bigger fonts and use classic menus/screens rather than windows would be more welcome IMO. I know that making new menu style for Elma2 isn't easy, but the current one doesn't seem very good. Even thought you can browse some of Elma2 menus using kb, they still look like designed for mouse and elma is game played using kb (like vertical scrollbars etc in control menus looks out of place and I still don't know how to use options menu without mouse). My point is that Elma is game that is largely played using kb and it's menus should be also designed to be used without mouse. You know taking hands out of kb only to use menus isn't optimal design. In strategies or shooters where you use mouse, menus that are designed with mouse in mind aren't bad, but elma is game where you don't need kb to play. /end of rant

Obviously it's easier to say make new menu than make new menu. I would like to thank everyone who contribute to elma2. My post is just suggestion, nothing more. I can imagine making such a game isn't easy.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 10:41 
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Imo mouse controlled menu is uncomfortable. Classic menu is better. U can navigate faster and everybody is accustomed to kb menu.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 11:19 
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I'm not a designer, so obviously I can't suggest anything much better. What I can say though is that the design seems too simple and dull to me and on the other hand, the shapes and edges of everything are way too bitty and asymmetric, these could be made simpler and there should be some Elma theme. Also, if I'm supposed to stretch out my arm and use the mouse to save my WR rec, I'll rather not save it.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 14:37 
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Ghost bike would play a huge role in battling, no need to merge your previous pr rec to merge etc. Short höyläs don't really benefit of it that much imo. At least you should be able to hide the stupid ghost easily during the ride in levs where differences are small. What would make a huge benefit is additional "imaginary apples" (or make them oranges if you want) or even just polygons or lines you could place (and share with others maybe) and check the apple/touching times of, placing them well would get rid of some apple time inconsistencies, etc.

What comes to rec saving, of course we will have an auto pr-saver thingy there, right? Maybe even an buton for the following function: "save this rec automatically after i finish or fuck up the ride, i had a nice start/idea there" or something?

More ideas: assign auto-merge recs so that when you play and finish a ride which you wanna merge with your pr or other rec, you can have something (recs) set up and just click the menu buton called "merge with 01fm1396.rex" or sash. Another thingy would be to have "default levs" that are currently under progress, scuh as "alt+0 to go to battle lev", "alt+1 to go to HALF2G.lev", instead of always scrolling or searching for those, why the heck not?

oke? :blushes:

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 15:02 
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It seems that menus are being designed so that the essential functions from original Elma (watching, saving replays, navigating lev and rec folders...) are doable with just keyboard shortcuts, though it doesn't work properly yet (for example "save replay" field is not activated without mouse, and some hotkeys are active even though you are typing in the field). I agree that it's important to uninterrupted play flow that you don't need to lift your hands off the keyboard. Thank you for expressing that specifically.

But as the project is "Elma 2", I would assume there will be lots of new functionality, and cramming all of that into hotkeys just becomes stupid. Look at EOL already: there are so many function keys that I doubt anyone remembers all of them. Quite regularly players who have played EOL for years go "freelook? what's that?". It somewhat works in EOL, but don't you think it's better to include these new things in clear interface and menus instead of hiding everything behind key combinations in the name of "staying true to the genuine classic Elma feel"?

And the asymmetric edges and visual look (TaharezLook) is a separate issue that was discussed already. It would be great if someone tried to remake that to fit Elma visually somehow.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 15:11 
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The reason the hotkeys are not known I guess mainly is because it's very hard to find any kind of instructions for the usage. Also, not everything HAS to be known by everyone, imo is enough if those who spend a lot of time there get a lot of benefit and the stuff is available somehow better.

Also, that point was a really good one, didn't think of it that way at all myself.

What all this reminded me of suddenly: Maybe it could be nice to have availability to recognize lev packs etc directly in-game, i.e. download 0lp01, be there, somehow have the ability to dl all of them at once instead of going to like eolsite osv or dling all one at a time. Would also enhance externaling community in an ez way.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 18:41 
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Chris wrote:
I still don't know how to use options menu without mouse
Yeah, not possible yet. Need to add more kb mechanisms.

Xiphias wrote:
I can't hit Enter to restart run if I simultaneously hold down the following combinations (UP ARROW + SPACE BAR and UP ARROW+ RIGHT ARROW). On the other hand UP ARROW + LEFT VOLT works fine as well as (UP ARROW + B). Other combinations might work/not work of course.
I think it's about the keyboard. See for example https://superuser.com/questions/73685/k ... -same-time. I have the same problem with my laptop which is why I can't use arrow keys for playing (I use numpad /,7,8,9,+).

Xiphias wrote:
One question: What does the Const FPS mean? What is the difference when this is enabled?
Const FPS removes "randomness", so you'll always get the exact same ride with same keypresses. Const FPS also allows you to use higher FPS if you have a bad computer/gfx card.

Chris wrote:
I believe something that has bigger fonts and use classic menus/screens rather than windows would be more welcome IMO.
Yeah. Some ideas for getting more Elma look could be:

- All menus full screen size
- Put the green Elma texture as menu background
- Disable button frames, make their background transparent
- Use red helmet for the currently active element (and change with up/down)

FinMan wrote:
What comes to rec saving, of course we will have an auto pr-saver thingy there, right? Maybe even an buton for the following function: "save this rec automatically after i finish or fuck up the ride, i had a nice start/idea there" or something?

More ideas: assign auto-merge recs so that when you play and finish a ride which you wanna merge with your pr or other rec, you can have something (recs) set up and just click the menu buton called "merge with 01fm1396.rex" or sash. Another thingy would be to have "default levs" that are currently under progress, scuh as "alt+0 to go to battle lev", "alt+1 to go to HALF2G.lev", instead of always scrolling or searching for those, why the heck not?

Maybe it could be nice to have availability to recognize lev packs etc directly in-game, i.e. download 0lp01, be there, somehow have the ability to dl all of them at once instead of going to like eolsite osv or dling all one at a time. Would also enhance externaling community in an ez way.
Yeah, definitely good ideas.

FinMan wrote:
What would make a huge benefit is additional "imaginary apples" (or make them oranges if you want) or even just polygons or lines you could place (and share with others maybe) and check the apple/touching times of, placing them well would get rid of some apple time inconsistencies, etc.
Needs work of course, but yeah, would be nice.


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PostPosted: 5 Oct 2015, 22:18 
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OS X 64-bit - requires OS X Lion (10.7) or newer; tested on OS X Yosemite (10.10.5)

Unpack the archive and double-click elma2. When running for the first time, you probably need to bypass the security check with Ctrl+click -> Open.

Thanks to Ruben for testing the OS X version!


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PostPosted: 5 Oct 2015, 23:22 
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Smibu wrote:
OS X 64-bit - requires OS X Lion (10.7) or newer; tested on OS X Yosemite (10.10.5)

Unpack the archive and double-click elma2. When running for the first time, you probably need to bypass the security check with Ctrl+click -> Open.

Thanks to Ruben for testing the OS X version!


For Mavericks and Yosemite users, if the application bounces once and disappears:
1. Open System Preferences (in the Applications folder)
2. Go to Security & Privacy -> General
3. Under Allow apps downloaded from check the box that says "Anywhere"
4. Run Elma2.app and knock yourself out.

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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 12:33 
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Smibu wrote:
OS X 64-bit - requires OS X Lion (10.7) or newer; tested on OS X Yosemite (10.10.5)

Unpack the archive and double-click elma2. When running for the first time, you probably need to bypass the security check with Ctrl+click -> Open.

Thanks to Ruben for testing the OS X version!


HOLY MACARONI! Thanks man!

I have not been playing elma for many many years because of this and now i bumped in here for nostalgic reasons and found this! YEEEEY! :D :D :beer:

EDIT:
Here are some bugs i found:
1. When writing your name in the options S doesent write, it just closes the options.
2. The alovolt tends to get stuck. Press it once and you do it over and over, even after dying and restarting. Sometimes the button doesn't work at all.

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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 15:37 
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Nice that it works for you too, Daggy, and welcome back. :)

Bug #1 is known. It will be fixed in the next version.

Bug #2 I haven't heard of before. Sounds strange. Can you figure out in what exact situation it gets stuck, so that you can reliably reproduce the bug? Does it depend on which key you assign alovolt?


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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 16:57 
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First off, fantastic work on the game!

However, I do have an issue with it that I can't see anyone else has mentioned yet, and which makes the game rather unplayable for me. On all versions of Elma 2 I have tested, I experience input lag. It's not massive, but enough that I notice it and it hinders my playing. Elma has always been a game for me that requires extreme precision, and I may be more sensitive to this issue and notice input lag more than most people (so much that I still used a CRT until last summer...).

Anyone else experiences input lag with Elma 2?

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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 18:02 
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The input lag is most likely caused by vsync. Check out "Average FPS" after ride. If it is around 60, vsync is on. You might be able to disable it from your graphics card settings. I will see if it's possible to have an in-game setting for turning vsync off.


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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 22:38 
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That seemed to do the trick, thanks! I guess I never thought of it since I have it off in eol...

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PostPosted: 7 Oct 2015, 10:54 
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Smibu wrote:
Nice that it works for you too, Daggy, and welcome back. :)

Bug #1 is known. It will be fixed in the next version.

Bug #2 I haven't heard of before. Sounds strange. Can you figure out in what exact situation it gets stuck, so that you can reliably reproduce the bug? Does it depend on which key you assign alovolt?


I've been trying for a little while to figure out #2 for a while but i'm not fully able to... I tried with both l-alt and l-ctrl. Same thing with both.

When the button gets stuck is when you're about to do two or more in a row and are releasing the button between the two spins. It has to do with the inputs of the other keys aswell as timing to do. But reliably reproducing it im not able to.

When the button just doesn't work at all seems just random to me.

I have one wish aswell:
Would it be possible to keep record of the best times of each level, like in old elma? That would make it easier to compete with yourself :)


EDIT: Now the left button got stuck aswell... First time anything other than the avovolt gets stuck.

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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 19:51 
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Daggy wrote:
Would it be possible to keep record of the best times of each level, like in old elma?
Yep, this is of course not the final version... many features are still missing.

Daggy wrote:
EDIT: Now the left button got stuck aswell... First time anything other than the avovolt gets stuck.
The only thing I can guess is that this could have something to do with keyboard repeat rate - so if you hold some key down long enough, Elma receives many keypresses - which messes things up for some reason. But I've never got the same bug on Windows, and no one else has reported any similar bug. But I'll add this to the list of bugs anyway.


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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 20:28 
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Tested the Ubuntu-versions under Debian 8.2 64 bit:
The 32bit version doesn't start. When I click on it, the screen flickers for a second, as if a window would open, but nothing happens. The elma2_log.txt file stays empty.
The 64bit version does start, but there are the issues that you mentioned, therefore I wasn't able to test much.

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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 20:38 
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What if you run it from a terminal? Any error message?
Code:
cd /opt/elma2 && ./elma2


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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 20:47 
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Code:
*** Error in `./elma2': corrupted double-linked list: 0x09deb9d8 ***

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 10:59 
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Pretty obscure error... I'll have to debug that in Debian sometime.

Btw, the bug in the 64-bit Ubuntu version is a CEGUI bug which has been fixed for the next CEGUI version (not released yet).


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 11:06 
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How much do you have to change before compiling it for different linux distros? I thought especially Debian and Ubuntu are more or less the same, since Ubuntu is based on Debian.

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PostPosted: 2 Nov 2015, 19:09 
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I too thought they are very similar, but I guess there are differences: https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... ith-debian

I guess it's pretty easy to build for Debian - I just create a Dockerfile (based on the Ubuntu build) for it and change the first line to "from debian" from "from ubuntu".

Anyway, once the CEGUI bug gets fixed, there might be no need for separate Debian build since the 64-bit version starts up fine as you said.


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PostPosted: 6 Apr 2016, 04:13 
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Dunno if suggested before:

Polygon
0=norm
1=grass
2=head collides only
3=wheel collides only
4=no collide, just ornamental for drawings

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for level designing i would like support for all colors so in addition to using lgr resources you could just pick a color for polygon

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 02:56 
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Kuski

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lgr/images attached inside .lev

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 03:41 
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Kuski
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i dunno if having them inside level is good idea because then level files would be huge compared to current size, ofc not every level would use custom stuff but still if you start battle with 3mb size it would tax server bandwidth when 30 people at worst will be downloading it at the same time

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 12:51 
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Kuski
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Location: In a northern danish city beating YOUR record.
Better have stuff like LGR's all attached to online database, so it can detect you don't have the LGR and auto download it.

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 15:01 
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little bug. head is covered by damper.
http://kopasite.net/up/3/elma2.png

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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2016, 18:44 
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Kuski

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sunl wrote:
Polygon
0=norm
1=grass
2=head collides only
3=wheel collides only
4=no collide, just ornamental for drawings
I think it's been suggested in some form. Maybe hardest part would be to explain visually different types of polygons. Otherwise it's hard to know the type...

And yeah, LGRs inside levs feel too wasteful.

dawid wrote:
little bug. head is covered by damper.
Thanks, I'll add this to buglist.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2016, 12:45 
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Kuski
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Very serious bug!
The apple isn't collected when wheel/head covers the flower.
Image
EDIT: forgot: Linux Mint 17.3, 32bit elma version

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PostPosted: 16 Aug 2016, 22:12 
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Kuski

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dawid wrote:
So littel response :( everybody plays web elma (welma?) and has no tiem to discuss?
Imo the response was decent :)

dawid wrote:
Smibu, it has so little response that it looks like there is no reason to continue this project even if it is mega great and GAA project ofc. Is it now easier to convert ur every elma2 update to web version or u'll have many problems with each update? Dunno how do u develop elma2 and elmanager but imo u should focus on elma2.
The web version is not really any different now that it works. When I push a commit to GitLab, it fires up some VMs to build Elma 2 for all 6 platforms (win32, win64, linux32, linux64, osx, web) automatically. This takes about 10 mins. Then I can download the binaries if the builds passed. If something fails, it lets me read the console output of the VM and see what went wrong.

A minor annoyance is if I need to add new libraries. In that case I have to modify all 6 Dockerfiles to update the build environments.

Elmanager is a Windows app and I can't use Docker for building it automatically. It works only on Windows, so the benefit would be very small anyway.

dawid wrote:
The progress goes very slowly.
Time for a status update then :)

Maybe someone has already noticed something new in the web version, compared to the last desktop version:

1. The menus now have a lot better support for keyboard navigation - you can use arrows to navigate buttons, use tab key to switch tab, etc. It's a generic solution, so it will work in all future menus too. There's just a couple of rough edges to fix.

2. It uses tga versions of lgr images. And actually, it uses a new lgr format, which is called lgrzip!

In short, lgrzip is a zip file (with .lgrzip extension) which is obtained by extracting a regular lgr file (using ALE's extraction tool for example) and then zipping the files. So the lgrzip file contains all image files and the pictures.lst file. Subfolders are not allowed.

The image files don't have to be pcx files, but any files that are supported by FreeImage. So, Elma 2 finally has support for 32-bit graphics!

The zip format has the benefit that there is no need to make any special "lgr editor" because it is enough to have an image editor, a text editor (for the pictures.lst file) and a zip program.

Just a note for possible lgr makers: The dimensions of all textures (not pictures) must be powers of two - otherwise they will not work (they get rendered as black) in the web version. The power-of-two is a WebGL requirement for repeating textures. This doesn't mean they need to be squares - for example the size 32x128 is fine.


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PostPosted: 16 Aug 2016, 23:22 
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Kuski

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Cool updates!

Glad navigation is easier especially. Also lgr update is pretty sick

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 04:26 
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Kuski
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very nice to hear about lgr, been waiting long time for 32-bit support! time to experiment :)

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 14:14 
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Kuski
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oh one sick thing would be: give all images similar support as qfood so you can have animations for all images if you want

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2016, 17:54 
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i tried now to make .lgrzip file by just converting all the lgr files to gif and jpeg and neither of those files work with elma2, it just crashes on startup. log says "Error while loading LGR: Failed to open lgr file lgr/default.lgr for reading.". dunno if that freeimage thing requires some special retard-files exactly to some specs or what (used irfanview batch conversion to convert those files)

http://kopasite.net/up/ht4uo0t3ts83bg0/defaultzip.zip
http://kopasite.net/up/13r0lh0tkpyw8d5/defaultjpeg.zip

there are the files i used, tried naming both default_elma2.lgrzip and default.lgrzip and just default.lgr or default_elma2.lgr and get crash every time

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