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PostPosted: 1 Jul 2012, 13:59 
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Haruhi wrote:
Haruhi wrote:
Well i made my first target improvement in ages:

Hangman: Professional -> World Class

3 world class times
26 professional times
25 good times


Steep Corner: Good -> Professional
Bumpy Journey: Good -> Professional

3 WC
28 Pro
23 Good


3 WC
29 Pro
22 Good

Spiral: Good -> Professional

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TT: 39:59:02 | AvgTT: 42:02:00 | Targets: 5 WC, 33 Pro, 16 Good | 20 Australian Records | Cyberscore! |
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PostPosted: 25 Jul 2012, 12:05 
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45wc/9pro

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2012, 00:09 
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lots of times ok ---> good
so no more ok targets:>


3 world class times
8 professional times
43 good times

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2012, 19:05 
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3 WC
31 Pro
20 Good

Downhill -> Pro
Quick Round -> Pro

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TT: 39:59:02 | AvgTT: 42:02:00 | Targets: 5 WC, 33 Pro, 16 Good | 20 Australian Records | Cyberscore! |
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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012, 18:11 
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4 WC
30 Pro
20 Good

Slalom Pro -> WC

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TT: 39:59:02 | AvgTT: 42:02:00 | Targets: 5 WC, 33 Pro, 16 Good | 20 Australian Records | Cyberscore! |
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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012, 00:54 
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fun fact: John is missing only 8 wc times in flat track in order to be the first one ever with all top 10 wc times (he was missing also one time in zig-zag, but already improved teh) 8)

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012, 13:10 
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john orka flat track, he hates teh.

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012, 22:46 
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youdontsay.jpg

i don't know why are you making posts like this. you don't have to post in every thread, to comment every little thing. it's very annoying.

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PostPosted: 5 Dec 2012, 12:30 
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CuLiNo wrote:
youdontsay.jpg

i don't know why are you making posts like this. you don't have to post in every thread, to comment every little thing. it's very annoying.


Whom do you seem to be addressing with this addition? The prompted information was not accessible at the time of the creation of this addition.

Was it due to some obstacle that hampered your forethought?

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PostPosted: 5 Dec 2012, 14:46 
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goofu wrote:
CuLiNo wrote:
blahblah

blahblah
Was it due to some obstacle that hampered your forethought?

HERE
and pls stop writing with that administrative style, my brain is tired of reading that.

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PostPosted: 10 Dec 2012, 17:35 
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5 WC
31 Pro
18 Good

Expert System: Good -> World Class

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TT: 39:59:02 | AvgTT: 42:02:00 | Targets: 5 WC, 33 Pro, 16 Good | 20 Australian Records | Cyberscore! |
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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2013, 04:33 
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Here you go Sunl. Add the program to your elma folder.


Attachments:
STATS Target 1.3 Final.zip [165.99 KiB]
Downloaded 65 times

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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2014, 21:27 
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I think it would be nice to base the targets on EOL database stats. It's way funnier to know how you compare to the rest of the world than some arbitrary, out-dated theoretical times.

top10 = WC, top 20 = pro, top35 = good, top60 = beginner, <60 = nab or something like that? Could then have ashiivment list on eol site where says how many pro good wc nab times etc..

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2014, 22:37 
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Labs wrote:
Labs wrote:

11 wc
27 pro
16 good



12 world class times
29 professional times
13 good times


14 world class times
28 professional times
12 good times

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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2014, 22:47 
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Lukazz wrote:
1 pro

still that

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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2014, 01:01 
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I disagree igge. Target times are largely based on known styles and exists to tell you what a good time in a certain level is. Where as actual top X times to a large degree also is based on how many people have hoyled it a lot. Top 10 will always be harder and harder to achieve, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a time that was top10 two years ago is any worse now. Of course with new styles discovered certain times becomes easier, which is the never ending problem. Basing target times on top X has been suggested before, but I don't see the point, might as well simply have achievements for how many top 10, top 50, etc. you have.

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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2014, 03:05 
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watever your decision is about the target time times plz more achievment kind of stuf on eol profiles)

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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2014, 16:20 
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Hosp wrote:
watever your decision is about the target time times plz more achievment kind of stuf on eol profiles)


Achievements sounds very motivating :D

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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 15:28 
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Kopaka wrote:
I disagree igge. Target times are largely based on known styles and exists to tell you what a good time in a certain level is. Where as actual top X times to a large degree also is based on how many people have hoyled it a lot. Top 10 will always be harder and harder to achieve, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a time that was top10 two years ago is any worse now. Of course with new styles discovered certain times becomes easier, which is the never ending problem. Basing target times on top X has been suggested before, but I don't see the point, might as well simply have achievements for how many top 10, top 50, etc. you have.
Sorry, I meant to respond to this earlier, but here goes.

While what you say is true, that the top lists will always be more and more refined, it doesn't take away from the fact that static times get "worse" by age.. When someone first invents a new style that time is amazing, but after several people have hoyled this new style, the first finish might actually not be that good anymore. Just like top 10s get improved all the times, styles and ability to perform those times get refined too; there are constantly tiny new tricks being discovered here and there, not only to improve times but also to simplify the driving

I honestly think basing your skill depending on how good you are compared to other players makes more sense than comparing it to static targets. Of course there could be separate achievements also, that are more loosely based on raw skill but rather different objectives, but when it comes to target times I think we should always motivate people to try to do what's "required" in elma these days, and this "requirement" always changes.

e.g.
Zweq invents ramp brutal and it's by far the sickest time ever made in the level. He then chooses not to improve that time, and in 10 years he will be passed by many others. Perhaps he's not even in the top20 anymore, because elma is like that; what was once just a dream can over-night become basic and "default" (isn't it amazing?). But when his time is the 22nd best in the world, can it still be considered world-class..? And even moreso, are the times based on the static target - which was set before the ramp brutal was invented - still world class?

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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 16:59 
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While I agree that static targets have their problems, I can't see the idea of being compared to other players being the better solution. The example with Zweq's Ramp Frenzy is kinda bad, because ofc everyone knows that in 10 years things change. I'd say that maybe update the targets once in a while so they keep up with the newest styles. Updating them every time a new style or trick is invented would be silly though, so maybe something like once a year or two would be good.

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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 20:05 
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Well, I haven't read anything above this particular post of mine, but I have to say that I fully agree with all of you who say that these targets are a load of rubbish.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 09:07 
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Madness wrote:
Well, I haven't read anything above this particular post of mine, but I have to say that I fully agree with all of you who say that these targets are a load of rubbish.

Well, maybe it applies, to you (lucky you), but for me, target times were something that kept me hoyling one particular lev for hours (even tho I sucked at elma), just to cut down that 0.02 from Warm Up. I knew that the time was still worse than WR#001, but it made me feel I achieved something. I knew what styles were pro and are not that pro anymore, but still I tried 5 different Steppes styles, just for the sake of trying and it yielded some fruits, even I knew that brutal is by far the fastest. So maybe if these target times get a minor update on several levels, and I find them still viable for rookies etc.
Maybe it would be oke to make somethink like 2 target tables, one for pros and one for casual hoylers / rookies. Pros will start somewhere at "Professional" column, ending with "WR" column, and will have their times more spread in the interval than rookies. Just for the sake of having an achievement target in front of them.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 11:57 
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Actually.... you guys are right.

All my times can be either amazing, okay or shit based on who you compare them to. In my eyes the second-best time (after WR) in any int is world-class, while the person who holds that time might consider his own run flawed, and only the WR to be world-class.. There will always be some subjectivity and bias as to who makes the judgement, and who you are comparing to.

But that doesn't mean all my times suck, just because I compare myself with zweq or kazan or bene or spef.. the fact still remains that some of my times are good, in the sense that it does take some understanding of the game, and studying of styles to get that time. So targets should maybe be set up as some "universal" limits that show your progress;

"good, you understand how to do the headbanger pipe. now you have a good time"
"good, now you understand how to do longjump on bottom floow, how you have a professional time"
"good, now you grasp the new gas-in-roof start, and have a really fluent run. this time is world class"

AND!

it makes so much more sense to have the achievemtents actually be based on topX times; for instance; have a time in every world top20, or have 10 times in world top10 etc.

You guys convinced me! But better refine those targets at least, and keep them up to date when new styles arise.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 13:41 
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were the targets updated or are mans still using the ones from 2004 (anyone using those old ones is simply stupid and playing for GAK reasons :P)

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 14:24 
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Best kind of target times are Moposite records. They're updated automatically when new styles are found and they have more precise grading. 25th for now, improve 0.02 and you're 24th etc. Although I've been wanting an updated target times list in the past (simply because people using the old one pissed me off) Moposite records is the one thing that made me want to improve in the past, not some shitty .txt.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 15:11 
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world class target times
http://www.moposite.com/records_elma_wrs.php

good target time
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/levelpack/Int#0/top10

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PostPosted: 7 Apr 2015, 00:40 
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Mats wrote:
Mats wrote:
3 Professional
31 Good
20 Ok


2 WC
10 Pro
30 Good
12 OK


5 WC
22 Pro
25 Good
2 OK

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PostPosted: 1 Jul 2016, 05:00 
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Dont know were to post so i write here: When was the last update for these targets? Using elmastats of jonsykel I noticed for example on Ramp Frenzy that 54.xx is World Class, wich is really wrong since there is a faster style nowdays. Hi Flyer is another example, where 33.xx with old style is World Class. Didnt look for others levels yet. Shouldnt be this list updated? (If itsnt already)

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PostPosted: 1 Jul 2016, 07:36 
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Was last updated by Luther and some others in about 2005-2007 or so probably. Yes needs update, but IIRC most current pros think your targets should just be top 20, top 10, top 5 EOL rankings etc.

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2016, 12:10 
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I wonder how realistic it would actually to make new target times. There was some discussion before but can't remember much of it. Anyway my personal thoughts: 35 TT = world class total time. I don't believe that new insane hard target times would anymore motivate 35 TT men. However fixed 35:59,99 TT might be interesting for some pro internalists and getting wc target times would be really hard but actually possible for almost anyone in few levels. Not sure about professional target tt, I was thinking some 37:30 but it could be even 36. About 20 players made it so far. Maybe could also fix good TT for 39:59. About OK and beginner times...I have no idea. Maybe should also avoid too big gaps. Times based on elmastats top lists might give good rough estimates (or is there better list somewhere).

Target total times are now: 38:09,32 39:48,08 43:16,76 49:27,28 1:04:04,10

New could be maybe something like 35:59,99 37:3x 39:59,99 ...??

Anyway total times might vary quite much debending shortcuts. For example I might suggest sth like this:

09: 52:xx? 57:50
15: 52:00 56:50 1:02,00 (no idea)
24: 42:00 47:50 55:50
31: 1:12,00 1:17,00 1:24,00
54: 1:16,00 1:24,00 1:37,50

Tunnel terror wc target could be anything between 51-55 I guess. For me even 55:00 would be max hard time. Same with animal farm, could be 1:11,00-1:14,00. I'd probably adjust them at the end so that total time will be 35:59,99.

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2016, 15:28 
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after reading the topic backlog a bit I got a few thoughts:

Sure, top10 / top50 / top100 are valid targets, but they work totally differently, because they are dynamic. Static targets have a different goal, they're something that you can never lose after achieving them once. I can imagine this being quite important for new(er) players. For example even Madness asked for new targets in 2010 after getting 54WC, surely he enjoyed beating WC targets.... in 2002 I had an old wr table printed (like a table from 2000 maybe) and I beat them one by one, was nice when I had beaten them all.

Something like 32.50 target in hi flyer would be enough to ensure mans are required to do the most advanced style. Indeed, if you can handle 32.50 or better in hi flyer you are good at elma. I would imagine no new player would manage it even if play 24/7 for 6 months (would be an interesting experiment actually). Wouldn't hurt anyone if a badge of approval was granted for achieving it. But any better time than that, do you really need further targets? Extreme target maybe? 29:00? (requires a good slide brutal, not just get-up-brutal)

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2016, 16:22 
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Zweq wrote:
... do you really need further targets? Extreme target maybe? 29:00? (requires a good slide brutal, not just get-up-brutal)
imo the target should be where everyone knows, that u did THE trick. Pushing the targets close to perfect rides is not really what they are here for.

Imo easiest method to determine these targets is to look at old WR without the trick and set it close to that number. Int32 comes to mind: Axxu did 32:97 with old style (which is an amazing time, imo) and then Zweq beat it at Table #284 with 32:69 new style, after which it got hoyled to current 32:20. So a reasonable World Class target would be probably 32:90 in this case. Or even 33:00 - no one would go for <33:00 with the old style.
zamppe wrote:
Static targets have a different goal, they're something that you can never lose after achieving them once.
Well, in this case, u would lose your targets, if there's new Target List.
So I suggest to leave old targets as they are, "just" downgrade them. In this case, u would not "lose" your target. WC would become Professional, Professional would become Good and so on. Ez to remove those old beginner's target times anyways.
Would be maybe counterproductive to make all new times.

Also some internals are not needed to upgrade, imo (like int02).
adi wrote:
New TT could be maybe something like 35:59,99 37:3x 39:59,99 ...??
35:xx TT have 6 players in the whole world. I don't really think it should be that hard to be "World Class". 36:xx seems World Class enough to me (17 players atm, if I am not mistaken). Also it is impossible to determinate World Class TT as of now - the individual Target times are much more important, imo. So the new WC TT would be just sum of all the newly determined times.

And with my previous logic (leaving old targets as they are, just downgrade them), Pro TT would be 38:09,32 ; Good 39:48,08 ; OK 43:16,76 ; Beginner 49:27,28.

Seems reasonable to my :)

EDIT: This means, there would be just one new Target time per internal. Yes. Or zero in few cases.

Also a bigger group of internalists should meet on IRC or somewhere and talk about EACH internal separately, if this is hapenning.

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PostPosted: 5 Sep 2016, 16:28 
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When Haruhi and others wrote that last updated targets could be EOL top10 or Moposite list, i really didnt like or understand it, Zweq gave a good reason on last post and also, in 10y for example, players will do much better times, then for beginers it will be harder and harder to reach an "Ok" or "Good" time, wich is wrong imo, cuz those goals should work with the level style/difficulty and not with the amount of super pros who made it.
Overall Targets Lits is really well done and I enjoyed getting all WC and almost all were very real indeed. Ofc several levs needs an update (54, 24, 31, 07, 09, 35...ant only those obvious levels, also 01 for example) and also TT targets.

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PostPosted: 6 Sep 2016, 00:37 
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Zweq wrote:
For example even Madness asked for new targets in 2010 after getting 54WC, surely he enjoyed beating WC targets....

You have a good memory.

I also said:
viewtopic.php?p=176210#p176210
viewtopic.php?p=212506#p212506
viewtopic.php?p=209634#p209634

tl;dr
Targets are stupid and pointless.

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PostPosted: 6 Sep 2016, 06:25 
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Madness wrote:
Targets are stupid and pointless.


I'm convinced.

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PostPosted: 6 Sep 2016, 09:14 
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I made wc and pro targets for fun: http://kopasite.net/up/34cwc36jusblzj6/ ... argets.txt

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PostPosted: 7 Sep 2016, 18:04 
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instead of changing targets add something above wc called insane or some shit?

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PostPosted: 7 Sep 2016, 18:21 
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Ecchi wrote:
instead of changing targets add something above wc called insane or some shit?

I don't know about that, maybe I'd go for a full rehaul. Some of the titles for current targets just don't represent the times very well, since there has been so many new styles invented and the overall skill level has risen (I think?). For example, you don't need to be a world class player at all to get some of the world class times etc.

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PostPosted: 7 Sep 2016, 18:31 
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roope wrote:
Ecchi wrote:
instead of changing targets add something above wc called insane or some shit?

I don't know about that, maybe I'd go for a full rehaul. Some of the titles for current targets just don't represent the times very well, since there has been so many new styles invented and the overall skill level has risen (I think?). For example, you don't need to be a world class player at all to get some of the world class times etc.


Ye I got world class time in 44 in one day or so, and that's not exactly representative of my skill...

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2016, 21:41 
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Location: Southampton, UK
Pawq in Feb 2011 wrote:
wc - 1
pr0 - 15
good - 38
wc - 6
pro - 20
good - 28

long time no see, target stats thread :)

Adding to the discussion on the targets: sure they're out of date as fuck. But so what? For me (and I'm sure for many others) reaching these targets is an achievement. Losing this achievement as targets get updated at a whim of some people would ruin their whole purpose. Why hoyl for an achievement if you're gonna lose it any time? Imo it's not so much the names that count, but the boundaries which we try to achieve, and achieving them is rewarding!

If anything, I think another target could be added on top of WC with another name like impsy. Then all people's target stats remain (e.g. Raven's first-ever 54 WC), but imbapros can hoyl for something else (fairly smooth current wr style?)

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