Internal Feeling

[Sla]

Do you think you would never will feel that internal feeling again? I do and always wanted to try those kind of internal levels twice.
What if some day you find out you dont know how to finish a lev, how to reach an apple or which one is the fastest style?
It could be nice to notice whats your new Total Time, or even more! To have a WR!
Think about it: a new kind of internal levs, several styles/moves, you have 58.87 and the wr is 40.42...wtf! U dont know how to do such time. There are no replays to see, there are no clues...nothing.


Wouldnt be nice to have that internal feeling?

Ive drawn some pictures of my thoughts:

[Lousku]

So what's this tropic about? Teaser for your upcoming internal mimic pack? They can be nice packs but they never reach that internal feeling because the main thing that makes internals special is that they were the first levs we played and we paid so much attention to them when we started, as individual kuskis and as community. Impsy to mimic.

[kuchitsu]

Not sure what's going on) but on the prelast screenshot I think there's something wrong with the barrels on the left? Some of them are, like, floating. But very nice pics overall, feels like a lot of thought went into every vertex.

[skint0r]

i'm always feel problem with those internal inspired packs are they always tend to follow same format, like "o oke, first lev, i copy warm up", and most levels tends to hev very distinct look from internal it's based on, which it also looks like from these pictures, very easy to identify what levels they are based on. I think no one really managed to make internal level feel properly without copying something already in current internals. Either they make something that are too far away from them, or too close. Like some uncanny valley elma style where it never feels quite correct.

ALP = too far from internals
Gentle, one of better internal like packs imo, but not a huge fan of the actual levels in them
Found internals, maybe best internal like pack, but also that problem with very similar to originals and more copy of theme instead of new ones
II pack, also nise and very sik good level but same problem there with the theme being copied in each level
etc etc

still always enjoy new packs though. it's too bad external sites have become a rarity, and there's no longer quite the competition in external levels when have constant battle levels going all day long, and only way to make any competition if making a cup or some incentive where it's pack+cup kinda thing like half levels etc.

[Sla]

Thx kuchi, fixed.

Lous: Ye, i know internals are unique and prolly we wont see anything like them. But hey, we can try to do something like those levels anyways.

I agree with skint. So far, i havent seen an internal pack with totally different levs from originals. Thats perhaps cuz we tend to copy most vertices, apples or tricks. Maybe i can try to do a pack like that some day.

EDIT: skint: maybe if there would be a pack like the one u said, it woulndt be an "internal pack", just thinking.

[skint0r]

I think you could make one for sure. I just think it's super hard to emulate it, with the same feeling and without copying. Even if it might seem like a minor thing, something as simple as not making the first level a basic flat track with ground texture and some left to right style. As mentioned that seems to be the first copying all packs do. It can be an easy level, but instead of just looking at warm up and trying to emulate some kind of flat track from it, take some vertex blend from other internals and mix things up, I don't know how to explain it. Same with 9th level don't need to be some multistyle lev with stone1 texture and spikes etc.

I think the problem is anything that does not immediately remind you of one internal level, you are automatically biased against it in a way.

Going back, I think a very good internal like level is Gentle16, if you really can look beyond that it's not a copy in any way from a specific internal level. Which you might see is kind of hard to do. I think a lot of the other Gentle levels do this quite well too. So I think this is more of the problem with it. I think if you were to introduce a new player to Elma, edit the .res file and put this level somewhere randomly, they would probably assume it's made by the same guy or people (since they would be unaware who made anything in Elma) and not think twice about it. Dunno if I think wrang or agre.

[skint0r]

Adding to that, it's so different now with how long the game has been out. I don't remember if WR table was always updated once weekly in beginning or not, but look table #52 and TT is 40:50,65.
Imagine if you erased people's knowledge of the internals, but everyone still had the same skill as we do now, and you released the internals as pack/cup thing. I think TT would already be 38-39 within the first couple of weeks, instead of taking a year to barely get under 41. It's so hard to make a new internal, because people immediately see most obvious styles, they know tricks like brutal bounce and people can do a time in a 30 min battle that if it was an internal level in the beginning of Elma days it would take months to achieve maybe (pos exaggerating little bit but not too much i think). The reason internals are so etched in your mind as internals so to speak, is because they were the first level everyone played in 99% of cases. And you were bad. You grew up with them and got more skilled playing them. So it's like almost impossible task to get anything to feel the same.

[Sla]

It's so hard to make a new internal, because people immediately see most obvious styles

Exactly. I think Internals are "impsy". Look at this: http://kopasite.net/stuff/Balazs-interview.txt

"..::When making the levels in elma, was you thinking of all the shurtcuts
that have been made throw the time ?(Headbanger shortcut, Appel Harvest
with one pass, LAb pro bounce ec.)::..

Most of the shortcuts I have never even dreamed of being possible."

Thats just ridiculous! Think: lab pro bc, hi flyer, headbanger, ramp frenzy...and he just didnt think in the styles we know nowdays.
Every single apple on internals are so well/hard/bad placed...

[culinko]

I always wondered, if someone released current internals today (imagine if nobody played them before), is there a possibility to find a new style just because the levels are new? I mean, because the internals are played so much, is there a possibility that knowing all the current and past styles is holding us back, so no such style will ever be found?

[Sla]

Id say yes, every style/move/trick are obvious nowdays with sl. Though some styles are totally impsy, or not.

[AndrY]

It would very nice to play elma with new internal levs. But all versions which was made after (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2) were with old levs . I think it isn`t so hard to make levels in internal style. Somebody must organized creating elma with new levels, maybe it is possible to put new levels instead old.

imo levs must be
1) in Csaba`s style
2) but they mustn`t repeat ideas from old internals (as in Lost and Found)
3) Levels musn`t be monotonous, some (20%) may be "interesting" (like 31, 39, 34 or 45 in old)
4) Levels must be from easy to hard (and I think there must be really hard levs in end)
5) Quantity >60
6) there must be interesting, hiden styles

I would make elma2 myself but I cant programming(((
I began to make new ints (15 first levs made now ). But it is very hard to follow 1), 2) and 6) at the same time.
And there is problem with "interesting" levs, because they mustn be in any art style.

Although probably it is not good idea with new ints (because they may be like external LP). But maybe it would more romantic to play levs as internals (with skips, with thinking "what lev would be next", etc...)

[roope]

I came to wonder how skilled in playing and stylefinding were Balazs/Csaba when making the internals. Were they testing them a lot? Did they find and develop cool styles during testing?
One pretty big obstacle (if you can call it that) nowadays with level designing, especially when trying to make internal feeling levs, is that people are so skilled. They already pretty much know what's possible and what's not, what move or style is going to be used in different spots, what has been done before etc. That's what fascinates me with newbies that make levs, they haven't been "corrupted" yet, they just make whatever and it gives such a different gameplay that we're not used to. Sometimes it's just annoying nab shit, but sometimes there are really original fun ideas where I go like "wow, haven't seen anything like that in a while if ever". I think something like that is what we would need for new internals.

[kuchitsu]

I think on Balazs' YouTube channel there is a vid of him playing iOS Elma. Not quite the same thing but maybe you could gauge his skills from it somewhat.

[Sla]

I came to wonder how skilled in playing and stylefinding were Balazs/Csaba when making the internals. Were they testing them a lot? Did they find and develop cool styles during testing?

I always think that and i cant stop getting surprised about how internals were made/tested and how cool the still are.
Imo new internals are impsy, unless Balazs and Csaba make them with the same skill in playing and stylefinding they had back then.

EDIT:

6) there must be interesting, hiden styles

IMO there isnt anymore hiden styles/moves, simply pos and impsy runs.

[iltsu]

Levs should be made by some nab, who doesnt know any modern elmatricks. Imo internal feeling comes, when there is no planned shortcut styles.

[AndrY]

Is there any internal feeling?)
(perhaps stones is bad idea)

[Sla]

Imo all except first one. (too tiny polygons, two apples looks weird, stones not good looking)

Making new pack?

[kuchitsu]

Big hill on the 3rd screenshot is too hard by internal standards imo. I can imagine some noob with bad volting skill getting stuck there. I like the other screenshots.

[AndrY]

ok I will correct.
lev with stone is best now maybe. there might be lot of hiden styles I thing))

And I saw my old noob levs, some of them can be norm as internals maybe). After some corrects in design.

[Bjenn]

Is there any internal feeling?)
(perhaps stones is bad idea)

I love the second one, make a level of that please =)

[Polarix]

To get internal feel, some levs must have hard as fuck sc (like in pipe) ofc and hard distance-spin-jumps (like in flat track and turnaround for example). Very hard to design that.

[Ruben]

To get internal feel, some levs must have hard as fuck sc (like in pipe) ofc and hard distance-spin-jumps (like in flat track and turnaround for example). Very hard to design that.

Especially against the wind (left, so alo doesn't work).

[AndrY]

about 30 levs done now

Polarix:
To get internal feel, some levs must have hard as fuck sc (like in pipe) ofc and hard distance-spin-jumps (like in flat track and turnaround for example). Very hard to design that.

I thing its easy to make fast impsy style in lev.

Sla:
Imo all except first one. (too tiny polygons, two apples looks weird, stones not good looking)

1st pic: yes stones looking bad. I will make barells or plants here. But imo polygons are norm, in "internal ramp frenzy - enduro" style)).
Tree5 I thing would be bad too.

Sla:
Making new pack?[

No, I want to put this to internal file. but don't how to do it now.
And i will not upload them while not achieve it!)))

iltsu:
Levs should be made by some nab, who doesnt know any modern elmatricks. Imo internal feeling comes, when there is no planned shortcut styles.

I agree, nab levs are ideal for internals. I put here some my old (but with grass, pictures, and (a bit) polygon change).


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about

3) Levels musn`t be monotonous, some (20%) may be "interesting" (like 31, 39, 34 or 45 in old)

:








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ye levs in pics 5-7 are not for noobs. these levs will be maybe in 40-50 place in levlist.

[kuchitsu]

30 levs already?! You're a monster. I doubt that internal file thing is possible though...

[skint0r]

It's very possible. You would use ResEdit to edit the .res file. But the .leb files are a bit differently structured (no top10 list or level name, not sure about other things).

[AndrY]

I hope somebody help me). Balash? milagros? Who made 1.3 vers?

But this all will have meaning only if I will make over 60-70-80-100 levs and they would be suitable as ints.

I have one program (in other comp) which change levs in Internal File, but it works not so good and do not change levnames.

[Kopaka]

I doubt anyone would want their internal files changed, you probably couldn't even connect online in EOL then.

[AndrY]

I don't want to change 1.3 version, I only offer to make offline (ye online is bad idea) vers 2.0 with new ints.

it is my dream))

[FinMan]

I really like your work, keep it up! Especially the second and third sets looked simply amazing and also unique and still had the internalish feel. Also, the stones looked amazing. Don't hesitate to use anything you feel like even if ints don't use, doesn't really fit any point to not use those.

Don't bother too mcuh with those "impsy" short cuts, the line between impsy and ez is just so thin that it's really hard to get anything proper done. It doesn't hurt anyone if there are no obvious, super hard short cuts.

[AndrY]

I already delete stones .

Perhaps you are right, that its necessary to add something new here, because I began to notice that most part of my levs are repeating internals. For example lev with balls repeats 31, 29 (and 46) . But balls are good anyway, I will not change them. Here are more terrible situations. I have lev with loop like in 14, spiral, and so on (usualy one my lev repeat some features from 2-3 ints). It is very bad((. I don't want to make new Lost/Found

But on the other hand, if levs will be other at all, there will not be internal feeling((.

So hard to find middle between this.

Maybe mans have some simple ideas which can be used in new ints?

Other apples (number 2, not 1) is norm idea I think
Tree5... perhaps it is norm too.

[AndrY]

me make something like elma 2.0 with new levs and headband.

But...
1) imo this idea with elma2 is not very interesting. Because program for change levs appeared lot time ago, but nobody try to do this.
But anyway i will not make it as usual level-pack.
Ye, you could think "there are lots of good lev-packs. why elma-2 must be necessarily from these levs?".
Or "it is crap and nobody (or only 2-3 mans) will play in it". Perhaps it is true)) So, i must improve these levs to ideal form.

2) I don't like some of these levs (for example 25, 33, 54), they are not have int feeling imo and... perhaps I will put other levs instead them.
Some lev names are not good now. I will correct them later.
And some levels needs rework imo. And order of levels. Too later.

3) is it legally?)

4) there must be protection from cheaters (if they will send this state.dat instead state.dat of usual elma for example).

5) It needs special site for it (like elmastats)
And it would be good to change something else in game menu.
I cant programming so i cant make it all soon.

And, perhaps, somebody want to test this and criticize?)) But only if he will not upload game or levels in net. I dont want to show this version now, its not ready in 100%.

[roope]

http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746
http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9436

[AndrY]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9436

I mean elma with NEW internals.
Yes+Maybe = 58% imo)

Elma 2 without new ints is strnage I think, because there is normal (and ideal maybe) elma 1.3 .

[Hosp]

looks sik plz continue