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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 21:36 
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Constructive feedback to improve future WBCs
My estimation is that a lot of people have strong opinions about the WBC2, so I thought we should write them ALL down here so that future cup organizers can read and make it better when it's their turn to keep the flame burning.

A few thoughts:
Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
2 battles per week seemed good?
bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
pipe and FF, bad idea?
Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
designers allower to play their own levels, opinions?
Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
More?

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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 22:59 
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Shown times.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 23:03 
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Nice topic!

Battle length

- I really like it always having 60 minutes, and was quite surprised there was so much opposition to this (I don't remember the first WBC having such a strong reaction?). I wouldn't oppose a special event that has less time, if it's a fitting lev. I'm sure the organizers would get a lot of flack for that too, and what is a fitting lev?

2 battles per week seemed good?
- I guess for some/most yes? I happened to be busy for most of the last events, while in the first WBC, where if I remember correctly there was a event for every weekday for 2 weeks, I don't remember missing any. IMO we need at least one skip!

Bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
- Meh, the idea is sweet (to give non-Euro mans to have a shot at it) but it probably doesn't really work. From what I understand, most of the people this event was aimed for weren't even able to play. I'd desert this idea, unless we get many skips.

Pipe and FF, bad idea?
- I only played the pipe so can't comment on the FF, and haven't even read the chat reactions to that. The pipe event however was nice and I would welcome those in the next incarnations of WBC too, albeit they should be much easier and/or shorter.

Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
- This is something that you simply would have known if you had played the first WBC or done some research. It became quite generally agreed that easier/less complex levs work better in the WBC concept, at least that's what the majority of the people who expressed their feelings out loud felt. These cup-like multiroute tricky levs just demand too much for a 60 minute battle and it's just frustrating that if you barely find the right style, you don't have time to finish it because it's hard too. Yes, there is the argument that "battles are all about doing your best in the given time", but I prefer contests being actually fun.

This is not to say that there shouldn't be multiroute levs or hard levs in the cup at all, but there should be a good balance of all kinds of levs: easy to hard, short to long. It's up to the organizer to get the balance right; one way would be to say at some point during the levsending phase lajk "hey, we'd appreciate if you send X and Y kind of levs now, we've got enough of A, B and C". The other option is for the organizer to "make a sacrifice" and make those needed lev types themselves.

nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
- Would prefer a website solely dedicated to WBC, which would be used every year and contain all the previous cups' stats.

Designers allower to play their own levels, opinions?
- No-brainer for me, of course. Disallowing this would mean everyone who would want to play competitively (especially competitively enough to be in the top of the standings) wouldn't send a lev, and that's a big loss for a cup that already somewhat suffers from lack choices regarding levs.

Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup
- I'm not sure if anything can be done about this. There's the same risk in battles and pretty much every competition ever. I really don't think anyone actually does this though; MiE for sure didn't. I didn't even give adi the correct route in my level when the battle started, even though we always think about routes and styles together for the whole balle.

Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
- That's kind of objective I guess. For a max active life where you have many responsibilities and need to do stuff all the time? Probably. For the average guy/elma man? It's shouldn't be that bad.

Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
- This is related to the point above. If you are a really active lifer, there's a higher chance that something unpredictable comes up. There's nothing you can do about it, but it's pretty lame for the players, since some people really do plan their schedule for the day around the event, was it seeing a movie or meeting girlfriend or whatnot.


Labs wrote:
Shown times.

This is something I probably don't have a good argument against, other than I just really like it having hidden times because it's more exciting. Shown times would feel more like a glorified normal battle instead of a cup?

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Last edited by roope on 18 May 2016, 23:06, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 23:05 
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The bonus event sounded very original and fun. But now i think that after all, one event for different timezoners will not make any difference for them. I missed two events coz battles were at 15:00 for me and i was in work or uni. I was very lucky to be home for the rest coz i didn't work for the first weeks and uni was quiet. So i kinda got a benefit from bonus event but it was a very particular case.

There were no canadians or gimps playing the cup seriously, so it was no surprise non showed up. Only i could take a bit of advantage and some russians joined too. Actually, i was really tired at 23:00 on Sunday, i wanted to go bed (imagine the euromans :D), so it was fun to play coz elma is fun :D but also painful coz 60 mins battle at Sunday night. The result times were not really nice for a 60 mins battle, everyone played like zombie.

So in my conclusion, it was fun experience but i wouldn't recommend planning the same bonus event under this conditions.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 23:50 
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roope wrote:
Labs wrote:
Shown times.
This is something I probably don't have a good argument against, other than I just really like it having hidden times because it's more exciting. Shown times would feel more like a glorified normal battle instead of a cup?
Yes please, glorified normal battles in future WBC's. These cups should measure the same skills as normal battles, but in carefully picked levels with pro players gathered, a point system and stokedness. I don't understand why it shouldn't be like normal battles. The "cup" part of the name just means it's a longer contest that consists of battles, right?

I guess this is different for me because I wasn't in the scene before belma and never liked or succeeded in contests other than balles. They're the main thing nowadays, shown times are integral to them and have a huge effect in the gameplay. So I was excited about a big contest around balles, and then very disappointed to find out that it's actually clinging to the idea of a traditional cup and there is no interaction between players other than lies in chat.

Anyway, here's a poll about shown times in WBC:
Should World Battle Cup have shown times?

Battletime is a similar issue. Battles require the skill to find and execute styles fast, and also to compromise and choose styles you can do within given time. But at the same time, the less time there is, the more likely it is that someone wins accidentally and someone else loses accidentally. It can be hard to find a balance.

I didn't think the levs were too hard. Or maybe the pipe was too hard for those who were actually capable of finishing. Not only did they have to survive, but also go fast, so it was probably a pretty different beast.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 23:59 
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Battle length
I have mixed feelings. When I really like the lev then yes, 60 minutes is nice and it feels like the time passes very fast. But when the lev seems less interesting, after 35-40 minutes I can start thinking "eh, this is taking forever, I wouldn't mind if this ended right now". So I think maybe 40 min events would be better for me since there is no way I will like all levels.
2 battles per week
Dunno, I kind of lost interest towards the end of the cup... For me it can be kinda hard to stay excited about something for an extended period of time, and here one month felt like too long maybe.
Bonus event
I think only one event like that is kinda pointless. So an American will be able to play one event out of eleven comfortably, does that really change much? Maybe it's kind of an amusing life experience for an European to wake up very early just to play Elma, but that sounds like something more suitable for a comedy cup like Banana Cup.
Pipe and FF
For me the pipe event was quite demoralizing. :( I really enjoyed the first four events, tried to do my best and got somewhat decent results for my skills, I was kinda happy about my performance... Then this monster of a level appeared and told me "Getting cocky, huh kid? No, you are still a total noob.". After that I never managed to fully regain interest in the cup. FF event - dunno, a bit fun but just seems totally out of place.
Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
Some were definitely too difficult, like the Bludek\Finman ones imo... It's hard to say how to make easier levels, but I feel like levels with less vertices often seem much easier, even if it's just an optical illusion, so to speak. Like, in most internals for example there are barely any "superfluous" vertices. Almost all of them serve a clear purpose and it's easy to quickly observe a level and understand what it's about. On the other hand, when you see a level where every hill is made of like 15 vertices with bumps and all that stuff, it looks more complicated and kinda intimidating in comparison. Your event (#02) was a great example of an "easy to process" level: simple clean shapes, lots of flat surfaces, etc. Maybe that's what wbc designers should strive for? Just my theory. And I would say that this also concerns the visuals. Sometimes the playable area is simple but there are also hundreds of vertices that exist solely for the visuals, and they have an unfortunate side-effect of making the level appear more complicated than it really is.
So basically my vision is: we need levels closer to niN's event and as far away from J2's events as possible. Kind of a controversial opinion perhaps...
Separate website dedicated for the cup
Good, but late updates kinda ruined the impact unfortunately. :P
Designers allower to play their own levels
Of course this is perfectly okay. Just don't select more than 1-2 levels from the same author. 5 Zero events would feel unfair for sure.
Team members can share submitted levels
I hope nobody does this... Not cool imo. Sharing the style after event already started is maybe OK.
Free-time/delayed events
I honestly didn't mind when it happened, I guess I'm just an understanding guy...
Shown times
IMO there should be a different cup with a different name for that. For me World Battle Cup is already a brand and I expect a certain style from it.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 14:52 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
- Very good.
2 battles per week seemed good?
- Good if you don't have to work at that time. It would be safer to hold each event on a Sunday evening when most people don't work.
bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
- Worst idea ever, unless your intention was to have as few players as possible.
pipe and FF, bad idea?
- I liked the pipe event, but it should have been easier so that everyone could enjoy it. FF is too random, you can be the fastest & die at the end & end up last, press F2 and die (happened to me except I was lucky enough to survive), lose Internet connection (happens to me all the time) etc. Leave these for a FF cup.
Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
- They were okay (except for WBCII08 because of the stupid fucking jellyfish. NEVER DO THIS AGAIN, FINMAN!!!!!). I was happy to see some medium sized ones too.
nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
- Good.
designers allower to play their own levels, opinions?
- When you design a level, you often see styles that you would normally miss or not see immediately, so obviously this is unfair. What you could do is let them skip their own level and give them their average score (if they scored 900 points in the other 9 levels, you would give them 100 points for that level).
Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
- I don't think anyone here is such a douchebag to do that.
Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
- I believe so. If you don't have enough free time, it would always be better to let someone else organise it or at least have someone to cover for you.
Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
- It's never good. People who have too little free time and/or have to reschedule their stuff can miss it. Again, you can have someone to cover for you to avoid this.
More?
Let's do this!

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PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 16:21 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
60 minutes is generally really good, but it wouldn't hurt to have some shorter battle(s) in there either. 60 minutes seemed to be really short for some of the harder levels in this cup.

2 battles per week seemed good?
Agreed, 2 battles per week is good, doesn't feel too packed and doesn't stretch the cup too long. Something I'd like to suggest to this is though that it would be way nicer if the schedule wasn't a set "wednesday + sunday" or similar but for example every 3 days. This would spread the events throughout the weekdays, as in first event is Monday, third event is Tuesday, etc, resulting in at least one event per day. Why is this good? People have stuff like scheduled activities, for example I had my sauna planned at 9pm on wednesdays which happened to be when the wbc also took place. If we rotated the events, none of us would need to struggle EVERY week for this kinda stuff.

bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
Interesting definitely but would be a bad idea to have that compulsory.

pipe and FF, bad idea?
Pipe is a good idea, FF is a bad idea. One mistake can decide so much in an FF, especially easy one where most of the mans are finishing anyway. That makes fast play not very rewarding when compared to the risks you have to take to do well in FFs. FF cups are great for that reason. They just don't fit the more serious competitive manner of world battle cups. I did get my second place in the FF event, and that wasn't because I played well but because I just took it safer than anyone ever has, leaving the fun out of it.

Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
First of all, I think that a cup organizer should discuss with the designers to together improve the weak points of the levels. Secondly, a cup organizer can ask for certain kind of levels if they lack for example höyläs, easier levels, whatever they wish to get. How to know if a level is easy? Play it.

nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
It's good as long as it does its job, which nindex did.

designers allower to play their own levels, opinions?
Can't really limit this without skips. I would never send a level if I couldn't. It's complicated though, anyone could just make a nice feeling level and play it for weeks in saveload and offline and get a huge advantage.

Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
Who would do this anyway, there's nothing on the line really. You need to be really desperate for attention if you try to cheat in a cup like this. No respect for this kinda stuff.

Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
Yeah, that's the price you need to pay for stuff like this. It's amazing that some people want to use so much of their free time to make others enjoy their elma experience more.

Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
Really bad, this should be avoided as much as possible.

More?
This really refreshes the scene up, we really need more of this kinda stuff, maybe not huge WBC kinda things but smaller events.

ugh

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PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 18:10 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
Good. Could be mixed up by having very easy very höyl events with shorter time maybe, many of the levels seemed hard for shorter this time I didn't play all.
2 battles per week seemed good?
It's oke. More would be bad.
bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
What is bonus event I am sleeping
pipe and FF, bad idea?
Pipe is a bad idea, special event (that might be a pipe) is a good idea. Special event can be (but is not limited to): Pipe, FF, Climb, Uphill, Speed, Cool recent concepts, osv.
Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
Some levels seemed very difficult, hard to finish with tricks, frustrate to play 30 minutes without finish osv.
nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
Didn't look at results or nindex or website or anything no idea where it is located, played for funsies and chance to win bananas. I hope there is a chance to win a banana for just participating in events????
designers allower to play their own levels, opinions?
Very unfair but hard to disallow for many reasons.
Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
Nej jag lovar jag har aldrig gjort detta, eller? I have never heard of this happening and I have tried to get mans to send me stuff, because I am a douche. Everyone refuses if there is a slim chance their level will be used.
Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
Ok, good for you.
Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
Very bad.
More?
Hidden times please, special event could be shown visibly and/or time because it is special depending on type ofc.

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PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 19:51 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
Good. None of the 21 WBC levels so far had too much time.

2 battles per week seemed good?
Good. However, I liked more previous WBC with 5 events per week (more intensive).

bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
Pointless.

pipe and FF, bad idea?
FF obviously bad idea. Any special level should be fine. Though I would stick to normal battle settings.

Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
Doesn't matter but surely it'd be nice to have more variety, therefore co-operation with designers is really important. Actually I think that organizers could make even 75-100% of levels, why not? Also now it might be hard to reject levels with very nice visuals (and playability), which is unavoidable if want to have good balance with levels.

Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
I dunno. When everything is done carefully, there should also be much less problems to solve. Anyway I think that everything should be kept as simple as possible. It's good to have detailed rules written down but normal elma man doesn't even bother to read rules - he only wants to know when events are hold and the number of skips. So that info should be highlighted somewhere.

More?
2 skips is a must (with 10 events).

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PostPosted: 20 May 2016, 10:35 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
Good.
2 battles per week seemed good?
Good.
bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
Normal Euro evening, then Good
pipe and FF, bad idea?
Easy pipe good. FF not good (see madness post).
Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
Levels was fine.
nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
Dedicated WBC webpage please.
designers allowed to play their own levels, opinions?
Designer allowed to play own level, yes.
Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
I don't care
Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
Use ville's new automated battle stats synchronizer, everything will be automated, very little work.
Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
Annoying and bad.
Shown or hidden?
Hidden is fine, maybe mix it up?

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PostPosted: 20 May 2016, 11:16 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
This has been very oke, in the context of the two first WBCs.

2 battles per week seemed good?
This was oke too, I didn't really have problems with the schedule because I am able to schedule my own life very well. Could be even more per week, if less then it might take too long for this cup to finish and it might get boring.

Bonus event mixed feelings but interesting to have an event in the middle of the night?
This was also totally fine by me, again because I can just schedule my life to suit it. Made it feel like need to take this thing seriously in order to participate, which is kinda good thing. But if thinking from other people's point of view, then maybe not the best idea.

Pipe and FF, bad idea?
Pipe is oke, but it should be a lot easier than this one was. It required too much speed and totally unnecessary tricks. What's the point making a pipe event, which is challenging by its own, even more harder and including tricks that have nothing to do with piping? There was this one bouncy place in the lev too, luckily I didn't make it to this part during the battle because if I did I would have probably said many things that would've resulted in me getting at least a chat ban =) Can't see why anyone thought it would be an appropriate thing to include in the level. FF - not my cup of tea in this kind of contest.

Levels too difficult? how do we make them easier? How do we know how to pick easy levels?
Difficulty is of course a bit subjective, but many levels included some kind of small tricks, like bounces, stretch, a bit spin.. these combined with longer levels build up the difficulty. It's quite annoying to play a level for 20 minutes and not being able to finish even once because you just try to do that bounce right at the end of the level because you know that's what you gotta do. So, maybe shorter levels and without such planned tricks. Kuchitsu had a really nice point about the number of the vertices in the level. When the surfaces are clear you can more easily see the possibilities. Internals are quite good example with nice surfaces, but I personally dislike levels like bumpy journey where there aren't flat surfaces.

Nindex - separate website dedicated for the cup: good?
It's good, but I would like to see more stats and tables and of course instant updates.

Designers allowed to play their own levels, opinions?
I don't like it, because as a designer you can have a huge advantage even if you don't feel like that yourself. But without skips it is inevitable to let designers play their own level, but the correct solution in my opinion is to allow skip(s), and not let designer play their own level. I don't see it as a problem if someone doesn't send in a lev because of this. Just use some other level or make more yourself, I don't really care who made the levels in what contest as long as the levels are suitable.

Team members can share submitted levels amongst themselves and practice/scan for styles together. Resulting in giving them an advantage if that level is used in the cup.
I don't think this is happening.

Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
To be honest, I don't think it requires that much free-time, but maybe I am biased because I don't mind spending my free-time in elma related things. If it feels like it takes too much time and you are short on free-time and there are other important schedules in your life, then maybe it is not good idea to start organizing this kind of a cup. But of course I do appreciate that this WBC happened in the first place, but giving it a smoother ride would've definitely made it a better experience. We can improve the systems and EOL API, develop tools to make things like generating stats and sites more simple and faster, so in the future it might take even less time to handle all that stuff. What is left is "marketing" the cup and starting the battles, and I think it's also important that the arrangers are online during the competitions and are active and gz the winners. The bar is already set to some level and if you go below that there will be complaints. So people should just aim higher and higher to make the experience better and better.

Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
Not very good. Can happen, but should be announced early enough. Good idea to have some backup persons to handle these things.

More?
Well, I just want to say because some people think that the WBC rules and concept are already kind of set in stone. I don't think it should be. I think each year (or how often there are going to be these things) there could be some variations in the rules. There could be some kind of a theme, like if the times are visible it could be WBC3: Exposed and that kind of stuff. I can already see the tv ads featuring a blindfolded man acting uneasy and then the blindfold is taken off and he is enlightened and "WBC3: Exposed" text splashes on the screen.. oke. I'm just comparing it to the beloved reality tv show Big Brother, where every year, while the main rules being the same, there are always some new things and twists introduced. I think there is definitely room for some variations between the each WBC seasons.

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PostPosted: 20 May 2016, 12:44 
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Battle length: 60 minutes not good?
Not a fan of 60 mins myself, but I'm fine with this being what it is, and something else can be something else.

2 battles per week seemed good?
I like Finmans idea for this, spread it out on various days. A bit harder to remember when it is, but more fair for the various schedules people have. I have something else on sunday nights for example, so I knew I couldn't compete for total standings, which meant I didn't make an effort to play as many of the wednesdays ones as I could, and ended up not playing any. With finman's way each day will at most be used twice, so if there's two skips you should still have a chance even if you have a conflict some day.

Organizers need a lot of free-time to arrange this cup, time consuming.
Practical stuff like results can be done really easily if you use systems in place on eol site or set something up yourself with API. Of course then there's still things like making/picking levels and PR. Both very important for a successfull cup, and takes time, but it's a shame if you spend time on good results system and good levels and then no one plays. Even if you don't care yourself, there's not a whole lot of contests happening so we need to get the word out about those we do have. It may seem like putting out a schedule should be enough and people can figure things out for themselves, but I find it best to assume people are lazy and forgetful (I know I am), and keep reminding them of events, making sure they have the required info etc.

Delayed/postponed events, how bad is this?
Bad. Very anticlimatic to play a last event and then not get results right away. Makes people care less about results and in turn less likely to play I think.

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PostPosted: 20 May 2016, 20:47 
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Another point about the switching around the weekdays is this: you can even add having all the same-day events on different times, like one event on a Tuesday at 6pm, the next Tuesday event at 9pm to make a real difference!

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PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 12:28 
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If you start each event on a different day and at a different time, there's a good chance that many people won't be able to play an event or two, which is stupid as long as you can't skip any without losing points. Each event being held on Sunday would be best for most people. Of course, someone who has something planned on every Sunday might not be able to play at all, but it's still better if a few people can't play at all rather than if everyone can play but everyone misses some events.

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PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 23:40 
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Kuski
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 11:14
Posts: 1857
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
As some people pointed out, I also think that at least one, preferably two skips would really do wonders in these. I agree that without skips consistent every-sunday-at-9oclock is the best. Just need to find the balance.

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