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 Post subject: Free Will does not exist
PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 08:21 
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Did you know that you are only as stupid or smart as your genetics allow you to be? That your religion, race, and parent's income are all not within your control, but still shape your entire life?

You are who you are not by your personal choices, but simply because your brain is like a robot, from the time you were born to the present the connections and synapses in your brain could theortetically all be determined by a super computer, your every thought and move is predictable. Even my post here is a result of the stimuli I have experienced. Even now it has affected your thought patterns and will make you a different person after reading it, it is all theoretically predicatable.

I can never blame murderers or rapists for this reason, they are all simply a product of the environment they grew up in. realizing the truth that there is no Free will allows me to understand problems in people for what they are, I do not hate anybody amymore; I can solve things much more objectively. When somebody says, "fuck that guy, he deserves to burn in hell", I realize the one who said that is stupid, despite the crime of the individual he is talking about. The flaw within the murder or morally corupt can be figured out, fixed, and prevented if we simply relaxed and realize it's not the morally corupt's fault ultimatley.

humans can live peacefully if we realize we don't make our own choices. What do you think?

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 09:26 
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I disagree mostly but there are some agreeable points. Free will does exist in my opinion; I can either decide to have a cofe now, or 5 minutes later, or not at all (like maybe in 3 hours whatever). Claiming that what I decide is somehow predictable by someone/something is nothing more than just a theory of this logic you are suggesting, it doesn't really exist. What I can relate with is this:
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allows me to understand problems in people for what they are, I do not hate anybody amymore

I won't judge you by your looks or personality and I do not really hate anybody, I also don't have a problem being friends with people who disagree even greatly about things with me. But there are people who I do not prefer to be around with of course. Those are that kind of people who think they are above and better than others, and/or think their way of living is the right one and criticise other people's life. This is a bit contradicting, because I don't respect murderers or rapers, but those people fall in the negative category because they think they have a right to affect someone else's life and integrity. Still everybody has their reasons for being what they are and not everything is as simple as just deciding to do something or having a change. But I do think it's possible, to change things. That there are several directions where you might end up going, not just one defined by your past and genetics, and you can affect things with your actions.

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 09:56 
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I've struggled with this but maybe it's not so complicated...

The concept of free will only seems to become relevant in discussing religion. God creates all things and circumstances which lead to humans sinning, and then god points a finger at humans and condemns them to eternal suffering. That's clearly unjust. We can't have free will in the face of an omnipotent god.

But there are no gods, so we talk about free will in human relations. We're all in the same boat of determinism and our ways of affecting each other are limited. We can't simply change everything (as god could), so sometimes the best way to affect our circumstances is treating people as autonomous, and therefore holding them responsible for their actions.

Technically you can say a murder happened as a direct consequence of circumstances that were in place before the murderer was even born, but in practice we can make murders less frequent by promising to take freedom away from murderers.

Therefore the concept of free will in human interaction is necessary and purely functional. For all intents and purposes within society, we all have free will. And this view is far more functional than the alternative.
ville_j wrote:
But there are people who I do not prefer to be around with of course. Those are that kind of people who think they are above and better than others, and/or think their way of living is the right one and criticise other people's life. This is a bit contradicting, because I don't respect murderers or rapers, but those people fall in the negative category because they think they have a right to affect someone else's life and integrity.
In this text I see myself and couch arrangements among other bigotry. Sorry. :(

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 10:07 
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How could we live in peace if we realize we have no free will? It sounds pretty much like you think we have free will to live in peace, gimp, but at the same time for there being no free will no one is responsible for anything.

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 13:29 
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I realised this too a few years ago. If you had all the information in the universe, precise knowledge of every particle, you would be able to calculate what would happen in the future. Thus no free will.

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 17:26 
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Ruben wrote:
I realised this too a few years ago. If you had all the information in the universe, precise knowledge of every particle, you would be able to calculate what would happen in the future. Thus no free will.
universe is not deterministic, its probabilistic so you wouldnt be able to do that. ofc universe "throwing dice" instead of being fully deterministic doesnt change anything, you still have no free will but like lousk said its not really important question because in either case we have to act like we do

btw topic already exists http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6358

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 17:40 
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The reason why we will be better off realizing there is no free will is because we will not hold people responsible. One big step in the right direction is when courts decided to use the insanity plea as a defense for someone's actions. I also saw a documentary where the mans defense was that he had an IQ of 70, and he didn't know what he was doing(to make a murderer on Netflix I think). We already recognize flaws in these peoples brains that they did not choose to have.

Is it too hard then to look at even an intelligent "sane" man, but re trace every part of his life and realize his murder was not really his choice either? I know this kind of technology is not in place, but I'm saying that being open to the idea would allow us to find the root of the problem with Hitlers and psychopaths and people unfit for human society. I know we don't have the resources yet to figure out and fix peoples brains, prison is still the best option right now, but realizing we don't have free will is the first step to having a more peaceful world.

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 21:05 
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Vermin Supreme wrote:
Ruben wrote:
I realised this too a few years ago. If you had all the information in the universe, precise knowledge of every particle, you would be able to calculate what would happen in the future. Thus no free will.
universe is not deterministic, its probabilistic so you wouldnt be able to do that. ofc universe "throwing dice" instead of being fully deterministic doesnt change anything, you still have no free will but like lousk said its not really important question because in either case we have to act like we do

btw topic already exists http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6358


How do you know the universe is not deterministic?

Also throwing dice is a very bad example, because that is a specific case where you'll be able to predict the result with certainty if you know all the variables.

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 21:35 
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All the subconscious movements of rolling dice can be determined. the way you pick them up, the way the last person rolled them, their position when you pick them up, the way you throw them, things like the environment you are in can be predicted too like air flow and shit; you could know the roll by knowing all the variables like Ruben said

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PostPosted: 2 May 2017, 22:06 
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Where is the proof that you can 100% accurately predict what a human mind does? I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 00:28 
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Vermin Supreme wrote:
universe is not deterministic, its probabilistic so you wouldnt be able to do that.

im asume u talking about those quantum things, im not gona pretent to unterstant any of it bat there are at least some ways to describe how quantum mekaniks cud b deterministic, for example ve just not seeing whole picture and theres some underlying thing that would explain how its not realy random https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory
of cours just spekulation but at least to me sach seams more likely just based on the fact that its a simpler explanation (even though it dosent explain anything)

as for vether have free will or un: its obvious that mans not have cuntrol over most things happening in brain and body, why would decisionmaking be any diferent
im think just vatching movie and brian constantly convincing you that youre in the drivers seat (just like brian can decide to convince you of anything, delusional beliefs in psychosis, thinking what you see is real while dreamink etc)

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 03:05 
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ville_j wrote:
Where is the proof that you can 100% accurately predict what a human mind does? I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?
What's the alternative? True RNG within brane? At least I'm okay with thinking all of my decisions are based on something.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 03:59 
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Ruben wrote:
How do you know the universe is not deterministic?
no one knows it for sure but quantum mechanics seems to indicate so.
Ruben wrote:
if you know all the variables.
its not possible due to uncertainty principle. knowing the outcome of a diceroll is ofc possible to predict with VERY high probability even using classical mechanics but it was just an analogue so no need to latch on to that

jonsykkel wrote:
for example ve just not seeing whole picture and theres some underlying thing that would explain how its not realy random https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory
of cours just spekulation but at least to me sach seams more likely just based on the fact that its a simpler explanation
yes just like you said hidden variable thing is just speculation. go find it, very easy nobel if you do

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 04:27 
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Vermin Supreme wrote:
yes just like you said hidden variable thing is just speculation. go find it, very easy nobel if you do

yes, and my point was that so is any quantum gak interpretation, there isent some huge consensus on vhether its deterministic or nat and its probably not even posible to find out 4 sure

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 06:51 
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You cunt know electron exact position. I refreshed my memory a bit with https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/General_C ... ntum_Model

"The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the exact position and momentum of an electron cannot be simultaneously determined."

"If we can never know exactly where an electron is, then how do we keep track of them as they orbit atoms? Erwin Schrödinger made the concept of the Schrödinger Wave Function. It tells the probability of an electron being found at a given position. You don't know where the electron is, but you know where it is most likely and least likely to be found."

I think the link I posted is an easy read on the subjekt. What I don't know is that how accurate is it

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 07:22 
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Lousku wrote:
ville_j wrote:
Where is the proof that you can 100% accurately predict what a human mind does? I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?
What's the alternative? True RNG within brane? At least I'm okay with thinking all of my decisions are based on something.

Well yes based on something, but does that mean there is always exactly one possible outcome of things. I understand this theory, but many theories have proven to be wrong. Can you really count and measure human thoughts and actions with right formulas and input parameters, just like physics? And you are all talking like yup it is like that and I'm not buying it and I would like to have something else than your opinions about this topic!

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 07:40 
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ville_j wrote:
Lousku wrote:
ville_j wrote:
Where is the proof that you can 100% accurately predict what a human mind does? I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?
What's the alternative? True RNG within brane? At least I'm okay with thinking all of my decisions are based on something.

Well yes based on something, but does that mean there is always exactly one possible outcome of things. I understand this theory, but many theories have proven to be wrong. Can you really count and measure human thoughts and actions with right formulas and input parameters, just like physics? And you are all talking like yup it is like that and I'm not buying it and I would like to have something else than your opinions about this topic!
So are you essentially questioning the claim that human brain is completely physical? Just whange clarify, dunno if understand what you mean.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 08:01 
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Lousku wrote:
ville_j wrote:
Lousku wrote:
ville_j wrote:
Where is the proof that you can 100% accurately predict what a human mind does? I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?
What's the alternative? True RNG within brane? At least I'm okay with thinking all of my decisions are based on something.

Well yes based on something, but does that mean there is always exactly one possible outcome of things. I understand this theory, but many theories have proven to be wrong. Can you really count and measure human thoughts and actions with right formulas and input parameters, just like physics? And you are all talking like yup it is like that and I'm not buying it and I would like to have something else than your opinions about this topic!
So are you essentially questioning the claim that human brain is completely physical? Just whange clarify, dunno if understand what you mean.

I'm not sure, I guess I might? Or then something like that the state of our brain can't be measured relying on current rules of physics and theories, whatever that would then mean.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 08:31 
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If you believe free will does not exist, then I cannot argue anything with you, because it would be arguing with a robot.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 08:47 
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A.K.B. wrote:
If you believe free will does not exist, then I cannot argue anything with you, because it would be arguing with a robot.


A brain is basically just an incredibly complex (and flawed) computer, but you can still argue with people. If nobody had argued with me I wouldn't have been convinced that there's no free will.

That being said, I don't let it impact my life beyond these little arguments. Whether the world is deterministic, probabalistic, or some other model, ultimately makes no difference to me and the desicions I make.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 08:57 
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There is an interesting article by The Atlantic where a philosopher argues that he does not believe in free will, but that it would be better if everyone did. He conducted studies that show people who believe in free will are happier and even more likely to show up to work on time. Apparently believing you are a robot is not good for your mental health, and believing all your choices are truly your own is good for your mental health. I must admit it is not a jolly way to go about life and I'm glad Ruben doesn't let it bother him. I can become very apathetic and I struggle with this. Would you rather be happy or be right is the question I guess

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 09:31 
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jonsykkel wrote:
there isent some huge consensus on vhether its deterministic or nat and its probably not even posible to find out 4 sure
all those interpretations are based on same math, doesnt matter which one you believe is correct nothing changes when you do your calculations. hidden variable would require you to introduce something new that has not been found yet

AKB wrote:
If you believe free will does not exist, then I cannot argue anything with you, because it would be arguing with a robot.
nice logics, "if you believe there is no free-will, you are a robot and i don't argue with robots" so you will not argue with anyone who holds an opposing view? always a good starting position for discussion! i dont see anything wrong with arguing with robots tho, except that current ones suck at it

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 14:51 
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gimp wrote:
humans can live peacefully if we realize we don't make our own choices. What do you think?

Wouldn't that realization count as making a choice?


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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 18:48 
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No, it would just be a part of the big scheme of things that are already supposed to happen. Not believing in free will is like believing in destiny, everyone has a set path before them that is already figured out. My path is that I was meant to write this post, yours can be to agree with it or not, though you may feel like you are making the choice to agree or not agree remember it was already determined from the start what exchange of words we would have. You may wonder then, "well what's the point?" That I can't answer, I think we probably do things to stimulate our brains and not be bored, for me i like to think it helps me survive, my past has shaped me to be interested in these kinds of topics. The fun part is we don't have machines that can predict everything so the path before you and I is still a mystery, for this reason choice appears to be real and is an illusion. I've heard theories that time is an illusion as well and it would kind of fit in with determinism, definitely something to explore more for me though as I don't know much about it.

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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 20:42 
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PostPosted: 3 May 2017, 21:43 
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It's okay I'm not mad at you that you said that it wasn't your fault

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PostPosted: 4 May 2017, 08:22 
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to comment on zweqs post: the probability cloud actually extends to infinity, so in theory you could find electron orbiting on the other side of the universe. probability for that is ofc so low that it will never happen, fun fact!

gimp: why do you think it would be good for society to collectively conclude there is no free will? i think it would probably have negative effect. lots of times when arguing with religious people about morals etc you hear "if there is no hell or blablabla what keeps you just raping and killing people?" ie. the only thing keeping these people from committing crimes is the fear of hell. if you convinced these same people they arent responsible for their actions they might come to similar conclusion "im not responsible for anything so i can just commit all the crimes i want"

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PostPosted: 4 May 2017, 10:09 
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Vermin Supreme wrote:
to comment on zweqs post: the probability cloud actually extends to infinity, so in theory you could find electron orbiting on the other side of the universe. probability for that is ofc so low that it will never happen, fun fact!

gimp: why do you think it would be good for society to collectively conclude there is no free will? i think it would probably have negative effect. lots of times when arguing with religious people about morals etc you hear "if there is no hell or blablabla what keeps you just raping and killing people?" ie. the only thing keeping these people from committing crimes is the fear of hell. if you convinced these same people they arent responsible for their actions they might come to similar conclusion "im not responsible for anything so i can just commit all the crimes i want"


The fact that some people have to have a fear of hell in order not to be dickwads makes me think they're terrible people.

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PostPosted: 4 May 2017, 16:20 
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Jappe: pretty much same thing I have been saying. I will never be a proponent of believing in an illusion, even if it has good intentions. Not believing in free will will allow us to be more rational when evaluating heinous acts of others. You should still act in the face of say something like a rape or murder or even a bombing, but why does everyone act out of hatred and revenge? People hate because they believe in some kind of "evil" and it is toxic to civilization. But acts like terrorism are forces of nature the same way a tornado is, the scenarios of them need to be treated and seen as a natural occurence because of the way the terrorist was brought up or the way their brain works. Only then can we dispassionately evaluate the real reason behind the act and fix it. A world without illusion is a better world in the long run, people will not go around raping if we can still recognize the importance of being kind to one another, I give humans enough credit for that. Unfortunately we are still not completely rid of dumb myths and things like "hell", we are getting closer though and we will be better off for it for a wide variety of reasons, it is a limiting thought to innovation and even ethics. Be ethical for the survival of humankind, not because of an illusion.

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PostPosted: 5 May 2017, 01:23 
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gimp wrote:
Free Will does not exist

remember that the next time you get angry.

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PostPosted: 7 May 2017, 06:24 
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Extreme actions are very often done by pure feelings in my opinion with no braining included, I would call it free will, because the outcome is usually randomised.

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PostPosted: 7 May 2017, 12:54 
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Mats wrote:
Extreme actions are very often done by pure feelings in my opinion with no braining included, I would call it free will, because the outcome is usually randomised.


Feelings are 100% brain tho.

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PostPosted: 8 May 2017, 15:27 
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I thought about this a long time ago and I came to the same conclusion.

Imagine you drop a cup on the floor. You can predict what will happen to the cup. If you have a good physics simulation program, you can even calculate/simulate what will happen to the cup and the way it will break based on a few basic things like the material of the cup, the weight, the shape, the position, the height from which you drop it, the surrounding environment, the air pressure, the temperature, the nature of the surface it will land on etc etc. The more things you take into account, the more accurate it will be obviously. We can't calculate what a human will do, because a human brain is too complex and our actions depend on so many other things we are not even aware of. If you had two identical copies of a human, their brain would evolve differently as they would be in different places. If you wanted to simulate what a human will do, you would have to take into account everything around them, possibly the whole universe.

Now imagine you have a super-program that literally knows how everything in the whole universe works and you upload the whole universe into it, everything that exists. If it has all the data and you didn't fail to upload one single quark somewhere on the other side of the universe, the program will work the exact same way the universe does and will be able to calculate everything that will happen in the future with infinite accuracy. Or in the past. Or anything else. It would be able to calculate long before I was even born that on 08/05/2017 at 15:20 I would be sitting in my room and writing this post here.

You think you have free will because you can decide whether you will do something or not, but this is just an illusion. It's already been decided whether you will do it just as it was decided that you will be thinking about it. It's all based on everything else you have no control over. You don't have any control over yourself. You didn't decide to be born and to be the person you are. You are just an outcome of so many complex things that you have no control over just like your actions and your thoughts.

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PostPosted: 9 May 2017, 07:11 
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AKB wrote:
If you believe free will does not exist, then I cannot argue anything with you, because it would be arguing with a robot.
nice logics, "if you believe there is no free-will, you are a robot and i don't argue with robots" so you will not argue with anyone who holds an opposing view? always a good starting position for discussion! i dont see anything wrong with arguing with robots tho, except that current ones suck at it[/quote]

Not a full grasp on the suggestion. It is a little deeper. Rather than to dismiss an alternative point of view or argument, we are dealing with a topic that really delves into meta land: to what end are we achieving a productive conclusion if one side of the argument has already concluded that the other is arguing against their will? If I am arguing beyond my will, why should I not simply cease to argue? For what conclusion could I come to that furthers my ability to comprehend the subject matter in a productive way?

A little different than refusing to argue scrunched vs. folded tp just because I would have to encounter an opposing view.

Do love this tropic a bit and think that on the physical side, we have proven that we cannot react fast enough to make "rational" decisions, leaving us with some quandries...

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PostPosted: 9 May 2017, 15:35 
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Are you now arguing about why you should or shouldn't argue?

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PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 00:03 
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gimp wrote:
Are you now arguing about why you should or shouldn't argue?


It is an issue inherent in this topic specifically. :D Ye.

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PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 16:41 
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imo free will exists. Conclusion based on using Occam's razor.

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PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 22:23 
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Tigro wrote:
imo free will exists. Conclusion based on using Occam's razor.


You have to make just as many assumptions in proving there is free will.

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PostPosted: 11 May 2017, 12:11 
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Ruben wrote:
Tigro wrote:
imo free will exists. Conclusion based on using Occam's razor.

You have to make just as many assumptions in proving there is free will.

I don't say it's a proof. I just observe. And I make just one assumption.

If humans concluded that there is no free will, it would be devastating to the society. Lack of responsibility would kill us all.

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PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 12:03 
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Tigro wrote:
Ruben wrote:
Tigro wrote:
imo free will exists. Conclusion based on using Occam's razor.

You have to make just as many assumptions in proving there is free will.

I don't say it's a proof. I just observe. And I make just one assumption.

If humans concluded that there is no free will, it would be devastating to the society. Lack of responsibility would kill us all.


You can't use "there's no free will" as an excuse. That's like giving in to the dark side just because it's easier (Star Wars analogy woop woop). You don't take responsibility because you have free will, or because you fear hellfire. You take responsibility because you want to feel good, and that comes from having a clear conscience. Free will or not.

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PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 15:18 
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Saying that we should believe in free will regardless of if it exists or not means you don't trust humanity. Can people not handle the truth? The truth is more valuable to me than anything else, you can easily accept it and carry on peacefully. Also if you are arguing that, you are basically saying you acknowledge that free will might not exist, and that you would rather believe in an illusion anyways, is this how people stick with religion for so long as well?

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PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 01:18 
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It's not like the absence of free will was proven, so you just accepted that. You had to conclude it from some pointers or assumptions. And that requires some kind of belief. So what is the probability that FW doesn't exist? Imo it's way too far from 100%. So you have to have a pretty strong belief. And if you are willing to give in to such belief, then you may as well believe in God.

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PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 11:06 
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it's weird i'm with tigro on this, i aksed for some scientific paper or research and got totally neglected you all just somehow "realized" all this and were enlightened that's exactly like some religion bs ROFL

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PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 12:56 
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Before cane disprove free will, you could at least define what you're talking about by "free will". The simple view that can indead be "just realized" is that humans are physical things that act in a causal way through complex decisions based on logic and emotion and some faulty perception. If you're suggesting some additional factor to teh, what is it?

If your definition of free will is something like "human can decide to do what he wants", then yeah, I agree, but wanting things is a physical process too. It's a much bigger religious leap to say they're not entirely physical.

So what's the actual hidden factor you're suggesting someone should disprove? What reason is there to think that your decisions are not completely based on physical things?

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PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 14:36 
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Tigro wrote:
It's not like the absence of free will was proven, so you just accepted that. You had to conclude it from some pointers or assumptions. And that requires some kind of belief. So what is the probability that FW doesn't exist? Imo it's way too far from 100%. So you have to have a pretty strong belief. And if you are willing to give in to such belief, then you may as well believe in God.


It's perhaps a belief, but at the very least it's plausible and it his 100% grounded in reality. Religion on the other hand isn't grounded in reality.

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PostPosted: 14 May 2017, 16:43 
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let's say there's no free will.. but why would humans develop such strong surviving instintcs? why have anxiety and weird feelings if everything's determinated? seems a bit strange to me. imo i belive in free will and think we all can shape the future


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PostPosted: 14 May 2017, 18:17 
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ofta wrote:
let's say there's no free will.. but why would humans develop such strong surviving instintcs? why have anxiety and weird feelings if everything's determinated? seems a bit strange to me. imo i belive in free will and think we all can shape the future


Because we're determined to have anxiety and weird feelings. Strong survival insticts are just a matter of evolution. Those who work to survive don't get eaten, and they pass their genes on to the next generation.

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PostPosted: 14 May 2017, 21:04 
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Do you think animals have free will because they have a survival instinct?

You could make a robot that has a survival instinct and prevents itself from being damaged. You could make a robot that's more intelligent than most animals that can only reproduce themselves. You could make it able to process information and learn on the go (already possible). Maybe you could make it so complex that it would even have feelings/conscience/etc and it would make decisions based on this. You could make it able to reproduce itself one day... At what point will you say it has free will?

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PostPosted: 14 May 2017, 23:50 
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ville_j wrote:
I mean I don't believe any of this you are talking about so should I do some research?


Neglecting you? Should I get up and find you research whenever you ask for it? The answer to your question above is "yes". I googled a simple search and found plenty of articles and studies on this subject, the ones from neuroscientists are especially convincing.

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PostPosted: 15 May 2017, 06:55 
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i am afraid i do not possess the required knowledge to give you a definitive answer whether free will exists or not

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