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There will be 15 events. Skips?
1 forced skip 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
2 forced skips 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
1 worst result discarded 25%  25%  [ 11 ]
2 worst results discarded 34%  34%  [ 15 ]
no skips - all events count 27%  27%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 44
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 Post subject: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 02:25 
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Let's talk about skips specifically since everyone seems to have a different opinion on this.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 02:31 
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Sorry, I'm tired, but what's the definition of a forced skip? What if a player submits to all events, isn't the 2 worst times discarded anyway then?

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 02:33 
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in my opinion the skip with the worst result(s) discarded has no sense, because it still gives slight edge for those who play all. what we want to do is to make chances equal even for those, who haven't got that much time, or need devote that one week for studying only, let's say. so if skips - only forced, don't make this another cheap cup, where some Zero wins, just because he has most time. i voted 1 skip to make this as close to a serious thing as possible, but if 2 skips are needed, let it be. many people have various duties, others - families, let's not scare them off

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 02:34 
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Forced skips would mean that if the player played all 13 or 14 (depending on the case chosen) first events they wouldn't be able to participate in the last event(s). Some people support this option but I don't see why, it calls for an anticlimactic cup finish.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 04:04 
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Heh, all options hev 1 vote.

I also don't understand forced skips. It'll be quiteh luck-based, getting biggest advantage if you manage to guess correctly that all upcoming events are more suitable for your skillz than teh current one. Someone mentioned that scores are somehow confusing with free skips, but can't it be fixed by different visualisations of standings? And even if it's confusing, free skips are more likely to give results where teh most consistently skilled man wins, or?

edit: Oh, now read berh post. Dame, I keep forgetting people have lives. =)

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 10:13 
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abruzzi wrote:
in my opinion the skip with the worst result(s) discarded has no sense, because it still gives slight edge for those who play all. what we want to do is to make chances equal even for those, who haven't got that much time, or need devote that one week for studying only, let's say. so if skips - only forced, don't make this another cheap cup, where some Zero wins, just because he has most time. i voted 1 skip to make this as close to a serious thing as possible, but if 2 skips are needed, let it be. many people have various duties, others - families, let's not scare them off

You don't understand. For example best 13 out of 15 results means that you don't need to worry about participating in any event in case something unexpected happens. Surely you cannot plan when you will have little time or worst results. Let people submit as many times as they want. It's better to decide after the cup ends which times should count and the best way is to discard worst results. Otherwise it will be guess game, because you don't know how good is your time, until you see full results. Also people like Zero will still have edge as they can play more during each week.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 10:22 
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Chris wrote:
You don't understand. For example best 13 out of 15 results means that you don't need to worry about participating in any event in case something unexpected happens. Surely you cannot plan when you will have little time or worst results. Let people submit as many times as they want. It's better to decide after the cup ends which times should count and the best way is to discard worst results. Otherwise it will be guess game, because you don't know how good is your time, until you see full results. Also people like Zero will still have edge as they can play more during each week.



Thanks, now I think I understood

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 12:08 
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I have always preferred forced skips. In that way you will have a real break, not having to participate on each event. Anyway, picking 13 best results out of 15 is still better than no skips at all.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 12:38 
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I prefer 2 worst records discarded. But you can do it in two ways. If someone is discarded from 10th place, you may or may not raise the classification of people from 11th onwards. I think you should rise them, like was done in MiE Pipe Cup.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 13:11 
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nick-o-matic wrote:
I prefer 2 worst records discarded. But you can do it in two ways. If someone is discarded from 10th place, you may or may not raise the classification of people from 11th onwards. I think you should rise them, like was done in MiE Pipe Cup.



But what if after the rising, you affect someone else's worst result and it happens to stop being the worst anymore, therefore creating much mess and confusion?

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 13:25 
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nick-o-matic wrote:
I prefer 2 worst records discarded. But you can do it in two ways. If someone is discarded from 10th place, you may or may not raise the classification of people from 11th onwards. I think you should rise them, like was done in MiE Pipe Cup.

It shouldn't rise anything. Just 13 (or any other number) best results should count towards general classification. Results from individual events should stay as they were.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 13:33 
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abruzzi wrote:
nick-o-matic wrote:
I prefer 2 worst records discarded. But you can do it in two ways. If someone is discarded from 10th place, you may or may not raise the classification of people from 11th onwards. I think you should rise them, like was done in MiE Pipe Cup.



But what if after the rising, you affect someone else's worst result and it happens to stop being the worst anymore, therefore creating much mess and confusion?

That's true. Also if for example someone has 10th place in every event you should raise people's positions from 2 events and there is not a sensible way to decide those two levels. And now that I think about it more, I knew this back then and there actually weren't any classification manipulations in MiEPC.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 15:20 
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Any skips "call for anticlimactic cup end". Voted for no skips to give my honest opinion but skips don't cause any pain in my ass either.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 17:06 
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0 skips like it has always been. You need to find the 5 mins on Sunday morning for every lev. If you break your car in rally you get 0 points, simpel. Also if you have little time on some week that's where teams kick in to get help with stylefinding. Skipping the worst result(s) isn't really good, you shouldn't get handicap for being sucky in some lev.

Second option would be one forced skip. Some people might go on a vacation and have no computer accesss.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 19:06 
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Moved to Polls section.

I seriously hope there won't be forced skips. That to me is the stupidest rule in any cup, especially a cup where you have little to no idea about future levs versus the current one. It all becomes luck-based then. I too would prefer no skips, like Orcc, since the World Cup is as much about dedication as anything else. However, I think 1-2 discarded results would be acceptable. And abruzzi: This certainly doesn't give an advantage to those who play much, quite the contrary in fact! Those who play, and score points, in all 15 events will actually get points discarded, while those who only get points in 13 events will get to keep all their points. So it doesn't matter if you play 15 or 13 in that sense. Of course if you play all you will increase the probability of scoring higher points since you have two more events to get them, but that's just at it should be.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 19:08 
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Chris wrote:
nick-o-matic wrote:
I prefer 2 worst records discarded. But you can do it in two ways. If someone is discarded from 10th place, you may or may not raise the classification of people from 11th onwards. I think you should rise them, like was done in MiE Pipe Cup.

It shouldn't rise anything. Just 13 (or any other number) best results should count towards general classification. Results from individual events should stay as they were.

Agreed. No need to complicate matters. Discarded points would only affect the total standings.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 19:24 
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SveinR wrote:
Moved to Polls section.

Yes.

SveinR wrote:
This certainly doesn't give an advantage to those who play much, quite the contrary in fact!

But what about lowering others' standings in 2 additional events? Still it can be a decisive blow.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 19:29 
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abruzzi wrote:
SveinR wrote:
This certainly doesn't give an advantage to those who play much, quite the contrary in fact!

But what about lowering others' standings in 2 additional events? Still it can be a decisive blow.

Not a bigger blow than the removal of those points for the higher-placed player at least.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 20:24 
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abruzzi wrote:
[...] if skips - only forced, don't make this another cheap cup, where some Zero wins, just because he has most time.

That's how it goes - if you play more, your chance to win is higher, there's nothing unfair about it. Common sense, huh?


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 20:43 
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Madness wrote:
abruzzi wrote:
[...] if skips - only forced, don't make this another cheap cup, where some Zero wins, just because he has most time.

That's how it goes - if you play more, your chance to win is higher, there's nothing unfair about it. Common sense, huh?


My common sense states that we should downplay the influence of free time on the result, that's why I thought there should be only forced skips. But Orcc and SveinR proved me wrong.

abruzzi wrote:
what we want to do is to make chances equal even for those, who haven't got that much time, or need devote that one week for studying only, let's say.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 21:47 
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Xarthok wrote:
Some people support this option but I don't see why, it calls for an anticlimactic cup finish.


Discarding worst results can make for an anticlimatic finish aswell, if someone makes pretty stable good results and plays all he won't be able make many points in last event, and won't be able to change his position much, if at all. In kopasite cup which had that system whole top4 was decided before last event, would hate to see that. But I see your point aswell. Both ways has their downfalls.

I would still prefer forced skips though (I think but starting to be really unsure), it seems more transparent. As someone mentioned in irc though it might be possible to visualize discarding worst system better in standings. Could for example remove worst from total score already from beginning, and highlight it in overview. Meh, in the end maybe best with no skips. But I would also hate to see someone really good lose just because he was forced to be away for a week for whatever reason.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 22:11 
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Kopaka wrote:
Discarding worst results can make for an anticlimatic finish aswell, if someone makes pretty stable good results and plays all he won't be able make many points in last event, and won't be able to change his position much, if at all. In kopasite cup which had that system whole top4 was decided before last event, would hate to see that. But I see your point aswell. Both ways has their downfalls.

You could also get (by having 1 forced skip) a problem that most people wouldn't dare to skip any events before the last one, and then those that have made a skip earlier get very easy high points in the last event. There would be no such problem with the discarding worst result system. Also, the top 4 would probably be decided before the last event anyway (even with no skips), but there should be ample room to change their positions inside the top 4. In WCup 5 both the top 2 and the top 5 was already decided before the last round. This was the standing before the last round (worst result in parantheses):

axxu: 1046 (43)
MP: 1041 (35)
Jalli: 900 (43)
Luther: 869 (0)
Karlis: 832 (15)

All the places could here be changed after the last round even with the discarding of worst result system.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 22:31 
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SveinR wrote:
You could also get (by having 1 forced skip) a problem that most people wouldn't dare to skip any events before the last one, and then those that have made a skip earlier get very easy high points in the last event.


Yeah that's true, something like that happened in last world cup, with the choose one of 2 levels event, where 2nd had more players, if I remember correctly, so it was easier to get points for those lucky enough to choose the first. Kopasite cup might have been bad frame of reference with much less players than last world cup. I might prefer no skips, since with discard worst it's also an advantage to play all, so question is wether it will really make a difference for anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 22:34 
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It will make a difference to people who know beforehand that they will have very little time to play at certain dates so they could choose to focus on their other stuff in that time with no worry. But so far it seems like no such people have come forward so I don't know if we need to make organisational sacrifices for hypothetical people.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 3 Jul 2013, 22:36 
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Kopaka wrote:
I might prefer no skips, since with discard worst it's also an advantage to play all, so question is wether it will really make a difference for anyone.

I wouldn't say it's much of an advantage to play all with the discarding worst system, other than the obvious that you get another chance to do better than your currently worst result. The advantage is just as much on the not-playing-all side.

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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 4 Jul 2013, 10:33 
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Hello I made this vote: 1 worst result discarded
But I want to change to the last one: No skips - all events count
Please? how


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 4 Jul 2013, 11:14 
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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 4 Jul 2013, 16:46 
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Bjenn wrote:
Hello I made this vote: 1 worst result discarded
But I want to change to the last one: No skips - all events count
Please? how

There's a small cross on the right side, click it to cancel your vote and vote again.


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 Post subject: Re: World Cup 6 skips
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:45 
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It is likely that there will be a pipe level, and I will do extremely poorly at it. Probably need a skip for that... ^^;


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