Mopolauta

Elasto Mania board
It is currently 27 Jun 2017, 06:30

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Shown 30%  30%  [ 11 ]
Hidden 43%  43%  [ 16 ]
Some of both 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 37
Author Message
PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 23:31 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Posts: 2724
Location: expensive land of dads
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 00:05 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 13 Aug 2010, 20:31
Posts: 995
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 00:24 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Posts: 2724
Location: expensive land of dads
kuchitsu wrote:
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 00:52 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 18:07
Posts: 670
Location: Oslo, Norway
Lousku wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)


I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 03:43 
Offline
38mins club
User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2008, 23:46
Posts: 885
Ruben wrote:
Lousku wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)


I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDmwR-u-Bwk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 12:54 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 14:16
Posts: 362
Before WBC1 we decided to go with hidden times for a few reasons:

1. To get a cup feeling. Waiting for the results is always very exciting!

2. So that styles don't get spoiled. If you manage to find a style that is 2s faster and you finish with it other people will most likely know that their style is worse. I think it's better in a competitive sense if you get full advantage from finding such a style. In normal battles I don't care as much about this but if WBC was shown I would play majority of the battle in editor.

3. To make it feel different from Mopobattles. It's a bit lame if the two are identical.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 13:49 
Offline
35mins club
User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Posts: 2047
Location: London, UK
Zero said it all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 15:58 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 7 Jun 2007, 20:35
Posts: 962
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Just build new battle cup brands that have their own specifications, i'd say.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 May 2016, 20:19 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Posts: 2724
Location: expensive land of dads
Ruben wrote:
Lousku wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)
I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?
My reasoning is that WBC is easily the "highest" name you can choose for a balle cup. The name says it's the top level balle competition. The higher esteem, the more players and better contest it will be. So if the majority thinks rules should be changed, they should be changed. Also, there were many differences between WBC1 and 2 so it doesn't seem to be set in stone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 07:07 
Offline
38mins club
User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2005, 14:20
Posts: 895
Location: Hungary
Zero wrote:
Before WBC1 we decided to go with hidden times for a few reasons:

1. To get a cup feeling. Waiting for the results is always very exciting!

2. So that styles don't get spoiled. If you manage to find a style that is 2s faster and you finish with it other people will most likely know that their style is worse. I think it's better in a competitive sense if you get full advantage from finding such a style. In normal battles I don't care as much about this but if WBC was shown I would play majority of the battle in editor.

3. To make it feel different from Mopobattles. It's a bit lame if the two are identical.


1. cup feeling is about more than one battle with a winner of the serie

2. battle is about that too, dont be pussy to lose because of others find out style, its part of normal battles too, also there is no "last sec steal" with hidden times, which is norm in battles also

3. mopobattles are not cup

All in all, it should be named not world battle cup 1 and 2 it should been "1hour time/event to get good time instead of one week/event cup."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 11:57 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2007, 08:47
Posts: 897
I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown. My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well. I also agree you can't patent a name like this. While I commend Zero and Ramone for starting it, them handing over the reigns to nin solidifies the idea that it is similar to the World Cup, which is also not run by any one member. Ultimately it's up to the organizer, and if the organizer wanted to do what the overall community hopes for, the poll clearly shows that the majority would at least prefer some shown battles.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 13:59 
Offline
35mins club
User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Posts: 2047
Location: London, UK
gimp wrote:
I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown.

It's not about what you are favouring, it's about what is fair. If the times had been shown, I would have never ended up 31st in WBCII04 and could get much better results in general, so for me personally it would even be advantageous. But would that be fair? Wouldn't it be selfish to vote based on what's good for myself? Would it be fun for other players some of whom would choose to play most of the battle in editor so that others couldn't see their time and guess their style?

gimp wrote:
My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well.

WBC is not meant to be the same as most of the battles you play. Regular battles are barely 60 minutes long and played that competitively.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 23:02 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2007, 08:47
Posts: 897
Madness wrote:
gimp wrote:
I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown.

It's not about what you are favouring, it's about what is fair. If the times had been shown, I would have never ended up 31st in WBCII04 and could get much better results in general, so for me personally it would even be advantageous.

gimp wrote:
My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well.

WBC is not meant to be the same as most of the battles you play. Regular battles are barely 60 minutes long and played that competitively.



You are probably right. If the times were shown, you probably wouldnt have ended up 31st in that battle. But then again, if all times were shown there is a chance that you wouldnt have ended up doing as well in other battles, frankly we will never know. We can argue our whole lifetimes on what the definition of "fair" is and neither of us would ever get it right. Are you going to tell me a game of monopoly isnt fair if you are the best player in the world, roll snake eyes every turn, and nobody will ever trade with you because you are the best? you probably wouldnt, but who knows, you might? the point is is that arguing because it isn't "fair" in this scenario is not a black and white argument, but is grayer than your grandpa's pubes. in black and white instances i prefer something objective such as this poll, that clearly tells us people prefer at least some shown battles in WBC. but, since you opened pandoras box:

my definition of fair is that any game is "fair" as long as all players go into it willingly, play by the same rules, dont cheat, and all understand how the game is won. simpler terms is that before the battle starts, outside of talent, we all have the same chance of winning, seems fair to me. if someone wants to play in editor the whole time, that will also be a disadvantage to them, i suspect people probably would use saveload though :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 May 2016, 23:50 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 11:14
Posts: 1857
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
I am pretty sure Madness along with the most of the pros would do better in normal battles as well as wbc battles in general with hidden times.

What comes to the topic, hidden battles definitely are the more competitive way to go, along with the 60 min battles, as a lot of the people also have pointed out. Just like casual levels and level packs often have shown times and aren't taken as seriously and as competitively, whereas cups which I'd see as the "competitive form of level packs" as mostly people don't use a full week to a single level in a pack and someone can just play one level for the whole 6 months of HALF1A (hi Luthers) etc etc.

Similarly in internals, whenever a new wr with seemingly impossible time shows up, people quickly catch up with the styles in a lot of the cases because you KNOW that "0,4 faster style exists" or "this guy was able to do it that fast, so can i" or so.

So yeah, let's have a ton of more non-serious battle cups and battle evenings and whatever we can imagine, I surely will (try to) attend and for sure enjoy them. This could be the dad of all those with all the seriousness, competitiveness and all that shit, oke?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 May 2016, 13:46 
Offline
Kuski

Joined: 5 Dec 2013, 19:46
Posts: 52
i prefer shown times for a few reasons:

1. it can create very hype moment & is more interesting to follow if you decide to not play the whole balle time yourself. there might be stealing & counter-stealing attemps easily followed be everyone.

2. the win rec (and also other recs) will most likely be better because more ppl will find the "correct" style within balle time. this makes the times more optimal & fun.

3. you can make some micro-balles & find some target kuski within your skill level. like: "i can't beat x but i might have a shot on y, let's see if i can improve .35 to beat him".



but of course there are good arguments for hidden standings also, so i dunno


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 5 Sep 2016, 17:39 
Offline
Kuski
User avatar

Joined: 5 Feb 2010, 00:25
Posts: 2724
Location: expensive land of dads
This post is maby long overdue but Ruben's Elma Grand Prix has proven that we can simply hev multiple big balle contests with different settings and having the name "World Battle Cup" doesn't automatically absorb players and hev them skip other contests. That was a silly argument.

Anyway, at the very least, this poll is a reference point in case an organizer wants to make the cup according to a majority's preference. But ultimately the main thing for a cup's success is having it organized properly in the first place, so whatever an organizer deems good is probably good. My "public service" argument was pretty idiotic. Sorry about that.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group