are you a christian?

Discuss, argue, whine, talk but not about Elma.

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Post by enil »

Henkjan wrote:you do have to believe in god and his son and that he gave his life for your sin to get into heaven. if you don't believe in god,
you won't go to heaven. it is written in the bible.. can you show me where paules wrote that?
i will say again: if you are not with god, then you are with the devil.
it's allsow written and said by jezus: you can't get to heaven, then true me.
and if you are with the devil you won't go to heaven.
if your saying you don't need to believe to go to heaven, then everyone would go to heaven and no one to hell.
1: how good is god if he wont forgive you and let you in?
2: not beliving god doesnt make you satanic
3: and for fuck sake no he ddint gave his son, jesus was a blown cock that whanted to make historie. he did fine, he made a relligion, great
4 close topic pls ;s
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Post by Juzam »

Nat, Im juzam ;(
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Post by SveinR »

enil wrote: 4 close topic pls ;s
Don't dig up an 8 months old topic for no other reason than to bash someone plz?
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Post by The_BoneLESS »

been over 7 years since i last went in a church, but i am christian and i believe in God.

Long live the holy One

EDIT: Won't edit my post but yeah, i can say that i did change in all these years. Is interesting to be able to look at your past self.
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Post by Grace »

if you guys all belive god made the earth, where the fuck did god come from?
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Post by Juski »

Nothing bad comes from beliving in a god/some gods (except religous wars and that stuff but that's just because religous ppl are ignorant and can't accept that not everyone belives in the same god). Because believing in god can give you hope etc etc, but beliving in a 2000 year old book that has been proven wrong countless of times is just ignorant. Some people belive Science is just another form of religion, maybe it is but it differs on a very important point, if a scientist is proven wrong he will most often admit that he was wrong and change his mind, thus letting us develop more and more exact knowledge.

People should also realise that even if the bible is inspired by god the ignorance and unknowing of the people who wrote it down made them interpret it in a very human way and also from "god"'s point of view wrongly. For example God maybe said he made the big bang (let there be light) and continued to tell about how life was developped in 7 steps, and he who listened to him thought he made the universe in 7 days. What we would need is some more prophets to listen to god and "update" or make a new bible which doesn't contradict with all the science we have today.

And then in 2000 years when we know even more about the universe we may have proved wrong everything he said today, and then we would need another update, because i doubt god speaks the same language as us (considering on this planet alone we have thousands of different languages and then think of all his billions and billions of other galaxies and planets, i doubt we speak same language as them too.) and therefor we can only decode what he says about things we already understand.
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Post by A.K.B. »

smaxa, you are thinking literally, think about this:

there is not only 3 dimensions (length height breath/width) because time is a dimension as well, and the 3 dimensions are affecte by time.

TIME was made by god, god was always there, never there BEFORE time.
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Post by Ky.Jelly »

juski almost made sense (wtf omfg) :P

i have been lucky enough to read numorous text relating to and/or invovling the bible, i read the bible as i would any other fiction book and it is a fairly decent story, now to believe it as fact, is something else entirely, i wonder if most people read it know that 3/4 gospels were written some 80+ years after the events they write about. its has about as much scientific fact as a book i could write about my great grandmother popping back out of her coffin. yet, hey the world is pretty fucked up, and as i have said before, if people believing in something makes the world a slightly better place, then why not let them do it
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Post by devin »

This conversation comes up frequently on other boards too...I was reading on Soundclick and they had quite the discussion about existence and meaning of life and God's existence or lack thereof. Some interesting perspectives on the world as we know it.

http://board.soundclick.com/viewtopic.php?t=186807

http://board.soundclick.com/viewtopic.php?t=194717

Not many things interest me to a point to read extensively, but in this case I found some of the replies worthwhile. I still don't exactly understand the point in life but I feel more secure now.
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Post by The_BoneLESS »

Just wanted to clear things out:

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So, the big bang originated God... here we go, scientific and religious debate is over!
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Post by Memphis »

this reminds me of a passage from the good book,

"I shall not be in want he makes me lie down in green pastures he leads me becides quiet waters he restores my soul."
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Post by A.K.B. »

"Be still, and know that I am God." Psalm 46:10.

This verse is interesting, because it doesn't say "believe" it says "know". So if the Bible said that you can know that God is God, and was, and is real, there must be a way to know. Prophecy. 100% consistently fulfilled.

plz bury this thread again. Everyone hates it because presuppositions are incredibly overwhelming to the extent that it is not an argument of intelligence, no matter how smart you are, rather an emotional drama. I'm sure you'd all agree.
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Post by teajay »

GODDAME
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Post by axxu »

.:. TT 37:59:77 | Member of team AC .:.
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Post by Memphis »

haha akb emotional drama. Nah just peeps talking. It's all good.
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Post by A.K.B. »

lol axxu, all those questions are easily answered, just by thevinerhyme Jeff Mason himself.

Don't let pride get in the way of making the most important decision of your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY2WNMdJkh8
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Post by wjelo »

A.K.B. wrote:lol axxu, all those questions are easily answered, just by thevinerhyme Jeff Mason himself.

Don't let pride get in the way of making the most important decision of your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY2WNMdJkh8
aint gonna watch this video cuz the guy looks very very gay
prolly thats real AKB
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Post by umiz »

my name is christian thats all
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Post by berhabdul »

<<CHUJ>> na to kładę bo i tak damy radę! :D
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Post by jaytea »

yeah i think religion, on the whole, is declining. people are realizing it's just a story that was made up by us thousands of years ago and are now putting their faith in something that's actually productive. go world
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Post by Sick_Mambo »

Way to revive a completely dead topic..Jesus Christ
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Post by Harald Hasch »

if you're truly interested in the whole 'god', spirituality thingie, i'd recommend neale donald walsch's books, for example cwg 1-3
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Post by Igge »

have you read it yourself, or are you just recommending that book based on what other people say?
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Post by A.K.B. »

Jappe reads from his bible:

"Then the LORD says: , because this [is an atheistic viewpoint!] tradgedy..."

way to kill a dead hose with an "r" between the "o" and "s", I believe it is something that I can describe with "Xratio's mum"
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Post by Antz »

I skimmed through the thread and I think there's one important thing that has been ignored so far.

(As a background, I've had a Christian upbringing and considered myself a Christian for the first 20-21 years of my life, and I've only fairly recently given up the thought because I've simply come to realize there's no need for a god.)


The thing ignored is the efficacy of prayer. In several statistical studies it has been shown that unless the target of prayers is aware he's being prayed for, it has no effect. Logically thinking, if prayers had any effect, you'd see the people of a certain religion (the correct one) have people living healthier lives, dying less, and then there'd be the wrong religions where people died more frequently. Obviously every prayer targeted at sick people would be asking for that person to survive it, get healthy quicker and so forth, so if there was any effect at all, you'd see those people who have the right kind of prayers targeted at them survive more. Or if every religion was right, you'd see atheists die more since no-one's praying for them. But you don't, because there's no supernatural force at play there, everyone's got the same chances.

Think about it for a moment if you're a religious person. Every single time you've prayed for anything regarding the physical world, there has been no effect whatsoever. No matter how much you pray for the well-being of your loved ones, they get hurt just as often as anyone else.

I'm agnostic enough to not dispute the effect of prayers asking for sins to be forgiven, because the effect is immeasurable. However it's clear that no matter what sort of god there might be, he has absolutely no effect on the physical world.


One thing I've really come to dislike is how the people who win the Oscars or the gold medal or something such praise god for it. So god ignores the pleas for curing sick children of agonizing diseases, but comes push only you in the back so you beat other people who earn their living running around a track? It's incredibly egoistic and self-centered, and takes credit away from the ones who really deserve it.

There's one quote I want to add in this post, it's from the awesome David Attenborough!
David Attenborough wrote:"My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And , 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy".



As an end note, I'm well aware wikipedia takes a neutral stance on the subject and there will always be loopholes for blindly religious people to wiggle through, but for people with common sense it's quite clear any positive answers to prayers are coincidental.
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Post by A.K.B. »

Just note, Creationists do not believe of the separate Creation of each individual species, as that is not what it states in the Bible.

It stats that each kind of animal were made. And that is absolutely possible, as we observe micro-evolution (variation in species) everyday.

And maybe just a little something for people who believe that Creation (not even specifically Christian) is not feasible to anyone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

Atheist -> Deist

What happened in-between was his shift of views after being ultimately convinced of the teleological argument.

Just posting this to say that what you believe is the case, may not be the case.
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Post by Palme »

"Creationism is a religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity" - wiki

Thus, it denies evolution, and thus it is fucked up.

But i already know it s no use to talk to akb about such things.
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Post by Zweq »

it's all logical. A comforting tale had to be made to get through the loss of your loves. But please, there are much better theories about the origin of the universe nowadays.

To the religion people I can only say, unfortunately we are just chunks of energy created by extremely improbable events

move along.
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Post by Memphis »

haha that's a tough one to believe that somehow energy created a male and a female and made them both fertile. And as for evolution that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Why are there not still monkey's today standing up straighter and forming into humans if it happened before? People just can't believe in something greater then themselves because they believe everything has to make sense and if it doesn't then they come up with stupid suggestions like evolution or explosions of energy that create a male and a female.
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Post by Antz »

i think it's incredibly naive of you to dismiss evolution without any deeper understanding of the way it works. how about you actually check what evolution REALLY is about instead of dismissing what you THINK it's about?

instead of trying to find out how nature works you simply dismiss all the beauty of it as the direct work of some higher being.
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Post by teajay »

Jappe wrote:big bang theory is near to christian view where everything just popped into
existence. if space just expands and then collapses on itself forever, it still
doesnt explain where all the material came from and why is it there.
to understand all this human mind is still too simple
I was having the exact thought two weeks ago in the bus way home, when I was reading about galilei and his observations. I too felt that this whole big bang theory is just a weird rendition of the god-made-man story.
Newton was by the way fundamentalist religious.

Memphis, just for your understanding, evolution theory says that evolution of mankind didn't happen overnight. Why don't monkeys evolve into humans anymore, that's an interesting question. I can only say current manhood spread all over the world in a relatively small amount of time, murdering all indigenous species of humanoids (neanderthalers as common example). In order for monkeys to evolve into humans, you will be needing a lot of patience, luck and good ecology.

And it's indeed energy that mankind came from, as all derives from it. But maybe that's too materialistic for you to grasp. :wink:
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Post by sierra »

Memphis wrote:haha that's a tough one to believe that somehow energy created a male and a female and made them both fertile. And as for evolution that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Why are there not still monkey's today standing up straighter and forming into humans if it happened before? People just can't believe in something greater then themselves because they believe everything has to make sense and if it doesn't then they come up with stupid suggestions like evolution or explosions of energy that create a male and a female.
It's sad to see someone of my own generation be so misinformed about evolution. Let me start by saying evolution is not something to believed in or not believed in, it is to be understood or misunderstood. There is no question whatsoever that Darwinian natural selection is the explanation for the origin of life on our planet, and there isn't a single reputable biologist (or intelligent, well-educated, honest intellectual for that matter) on the planet who would dispute it. There are no doubt plenty of pseudo-scientific books popularizing fallacious "theories" written by non-scientists eager to push a Creationist agenda. The most popular of these myths at present is 'intelligent design', a load of nonsense which was debunked by scientists by as early as the 1970s (see 'The Selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins, 1976). All of these insipid non-theories are ultimately reducible to Creationism - a spontaneous origin of life. Darwinian natural selection, properly understood, is the only explanation of life which does not rely on a spontaneous, improbable event, but instead a very long series of gradual mutations, each in themselves not particularly improbable, from inorganic crystalline molecules billions of years ago, to the RNA and DNA molecules, through to all the wonderfully varied organisms we find on Earth today.

You asked 'why are monkeys not evolving into humans today?' Firstly, the process of evolution happens on a timescale which, to our human mind, is too slow to appreciate intuitively. Our evolution has left us with an intuitive sense of time ranging from tenths of seconds to about one century, but we know, mathematically, that that is a very narrow band in the entire possible ranges of time periods. Certain events in quantum physics last for picoseconds (0.000000000001 seconds); far too small a time period for us to imagine. Equally, events in evolutionary biology take place over billions of years. Trying to fathom how long a billion years lasts is a frankly pointless exercise for a human brain. So the answer to your questions is that humans have simply not been on the planet long enough to witness any significant evolution in monkeys.

Secondly, biologists have never suggested that humans evolved from the exact same species as would be called a monkey today. We simply share a common ancestor, as though we were cousins. We actually share the closest ancestor with apes, but of course we also share a common ancestor, much further away in evolutionary time, with kangaroos, blue whales, butterflies, bacteria, mushrooms and cactii.

From that ancestor, some offspring mutated to produce a variation within that species (known as a neutral mutation), whilst other offspring will have mutated to produce other variations, and over thousands and millions of years more and more offspring mutated ever so slightly along different family trees until the families became so distinct that scientists feel it convenient to label them as different 'species'. Much of these mutated offspring are to be found in fossils - 'intermediate species', if you like, between humans today and the common ancestor of the past. To reiterate, because I don't think the importance of understanding this point can be overstated, humans and monkeys are merely different families, descendants of a common ancestor from millions of years in the past. Humans have certainly evolved faster than monkeys, but there is no logical reason to suppose that monkeys will, given enough time, become humans. Indeed, some species of turtle have scarcely changed at all in billions of years. It is not for us to speculate as to what all the species of 2008 will have evolved into one million years from now.

I'd really like to develop this post further when I've got more time. Especially, I'd like to talk about illuminating imperfections in the human anatomy (and indeed in all sorts of other organisms), which belie the suggestion that humans were perfectly formed by a Creator. I'd also like to talk about the power of natural selection as an engineering force; for example, how bats have for millions of years used sonar whilst we humans only discovered it in the last century. And I'd also like to try my hand at a more comprehensive de-bunking of 'intelligent design'. But I suppose nobody can really take the time off #ranks and pornography to give it much attention anyway.
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Post by sierra »

Jappe wrote:big bang theory is near to christian view where everything just popped into
existence.
It fills me with genuine rage to read this. Firstly, may I ask why you chose the Christian view to represent Creationism, as opposed to the Islamic view, the Hindu view, the Quaker view? Zeus, Apollo and Thor, are they not all professed to have started the Universe too?

Suggesting that the big bang theory, as advocated by the mightiest brains in modern physics, is of equivalent validity to the mythological beliefs of humans from thousands of years ago, humans who knew nothing of electricity, DNA, the Internet, or even the ratio pi to more than two decimal places, is a truly scathing insult to human intelligence.

May I start by saying that it is not easy for a scientist's idea to earn the title of 'theory'. It is a genuine badge of honour. Gravity is technically a 'theory', but you won't find any sane person dispute it. Unlike the cowardly, cop-out of an explanation that is Creationism, the big bang theory is subjected to rigorous tests, as is the proper scientific method, and it passes those tests. The principle of science is that an idea is there to be attacked. And for an idea to become a theory, it has to stand up to those attacks, time and time again. The idea that the Universe was created by Yahweh (the Christian god of the Old Testament) in 6 days has never once stood up to scientific testing. The big bang theory has been scrutinised and roughed up by the brightest mathematicians of our time - by household names like Einstein and Hawking - and it works. The equations add up. What happens in the particle accelerators fits the predictions of the theory. One wonders why, if the Bible was written by an all-knowing, all-powerful god (who presumably had quite a lot of time on his hands, having lived for eternity) it doesn't include a little section on quantum mechanics. Or perhaps a cure for cancer?

I'm not saying physics holds all the answers. No reputable physicist would either. The fundamental answers to the origins of our Universe may not have all been answered yet, but unlike Creationists, physicists are working on it, and progressing every day. Piece by piece the puzzle is being solved by scientists (to get up to speed, read up on string theory, or the even more mind-boggling M theory), while piece by piece the explanations provided by religious doctrine appear increasingly, laughably untrue. Whatever your take is on the matter, do not ever in the company of an educated individual suggest that the big bang is of equal validity to the Christian Creation.
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Post by Palme »

In the end there will always be the question, why there were atoms forming to planets and such. Imo this will never be understood.

Coincidentally my uncle did research about the big bang very many years (like half his life) at the university of Heidelberg and i talked to him quite much. He s a christian and even with his insight on physics he, for himselfs, came to the solution that there has to be a god.
Even if Big Bang in the whole is untrue (some points are actually refuted) you can say that some parts of it stay true.
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Post by Antz »

I think the biggest issue with intelligent design is that it's too subjective. "I can't think of a way for this flagellum to have come to existence without a creator, ergo it must have been created." The fallacy in that deduction is obvious, your inability to perceive something doesn't make it impossible.

And as it happens, with further understanding, scientists have already come up with plausible explanations for the formation of said flagella, based on evolution.
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Post by teajay »

Palme wrote:In the end there will always be the question, why there were atoms forming to planets and such. Imo this will never be understood.
Eh, are you serious?
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Post by Igge »

ni like third grade we had mega religious teacher. she like took us on christmas and easter walks to the churches with propaganda guides. She invited propaganda people who came to our school and gave us like christianity booklets and taught us songs (religious songs, ofcourse).
Every class had a reading hour on their schedule where they read random books etc - Except for us, ofcourse - Our teacher used this hour to read from a "children's bible" or something.

Ofcourse, we were only taught about christianity, no other religion whatsoever. Also, she never said that this was not actual truth. (although atleast I was smart enough to by then have ditched religion) But I do think some might have been affected by this 24/7 propaganda.

Anyway in the fourth grade we got a new teacher, and everything turned out fine. The christian teacher came to visit us at the end of 5th grade, and when she asked for a hug, we simply said "No." (pwned!112)
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Post by John »

When come to think about it, we had a lot of christian propaganda shot at us throughout 1st-6th grade too, tho nat as extreme as Jappe describe it. Nowadays I think the majority of swedes dont believe in the bible at all, to me it seems like the majority either just believes in some possible almighty force (tho nat in the shape of God) or they are ateists. The community has changed, the school hasnt, I think its time to change the propaganda into education of what Jappe called general knowledge of christianity.

Speaking of teachers, I had awesome religionteachers from 7th-9th grade and 1st-3rd year of gymnasium. The 7-9-one was just a generally coal teacher, a former prisonguard which meant he didnt smile a lot ;o He always had a great way of teaching, with a few funny stories and sidetracks now and then.

The teacher I had in gymnasium came straight from uni where he had done like 2x speed so he wasnt much older than us. He had kinda gothappearance but enjoyed stuff like hare krishna techno-remixes and such. He invited people from a bunch of different religions and his classes was usually max fun. <3

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Post by John »

u guys are truly funny, i admire u <3
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Post by Palme »

tijsjoris wrote:
Palme wrote:In the end there will always be the question, why there were atoms forming to planets and such. Imo this will never be understood.
Eh, are you serious?
Well i guess u got me wrong, beacause of my lacking english sk!alzZz.

The question is, "what for" - so it s like why the hell are we here and such. And when there are atoms forming to planets, where do they come from, and where does the existance come from, where the atoms come from and so on and on....you always can ask for even deeper understanding.
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Post by teajay »

Oooh, okiz, yes I misunderstood you. :)

Consider this: the deeper understanding of white paper is white paper. Why is it that there has to be reason behind something?
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Post by Igge »

tijsjoris wrote:Oooh, okiz, yes I misunderstood you. :)

Consider this: the deeper understanding of white paper is white paper. Why is it that there has to be reason behind something?
Sach like my chemestry teacher. Don't remember exactly, but I'll try to quote as accuratley as possible:

"You ca't understand everything, cause somethimes there's nothing to understand. Here. (Puts a chair on the table) This is a chair. You can't say "I don't understand..." - Cause there's nothing to understand. It's a chair, there's nothing more to it."
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our sixth sense, knowing
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Post by Zweq »

dont see any problem with religion teaching in schoal. I stopped believing in god already around less than 10years old, but in highschool/gymnasium/lukio I took volitional courses on religion.

why the hell do I hate religious motherfuckers but took volitional courses? Well first of all, it supported my main subject, history. Secondly, there actually are lot of interesting and edifying(yes I checked dictionary for the coolest word to impress sierra and teajay) stories. christian shit is just part of the western culture.

but ok yes it is propaganda, they tell you to live like this: this so you get to heaven. that sucks. they tell you to nat himoita naapuria, that sucks too. however they tell you to nat kill anybody, that rocks

what do you actually think it would look like without any religion teaching in school? you are basically told on daily basis to not hurt anyone, it does have a great effect
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Post by teajay »

To explain my story, let me elaborate a bit on the school system in the netherlands first. Since the end of the 19th century, confessionalists took it as their aim to set up own schools in order to make sure their children were raised with bible lessons and religion. This was because the public schools were more and more distancing themselves from religion teaching.
In the end, all these kinds of schools got same government support as the public ones, as a compromise to the confessionalists by the liberals who wanted to have elections rights for all men instead of a select few.

And thus, I first went to a very awkward school, called the Vrije School, after the principles of anthroposophe Rudolph Steiner. In this school they educate in all major religions of this world, which in my opinion is a very good concept.
Unfortunately, the school itself couldn't handle the burden of 'theory meets practise', so when I was still very young, I changed schools. Now I went to a catholic elementary school. Besides the subsidy from the government, these schools can count on money from the Church, so these schools mainly serve better education than public schools.
At this school I learned some arbitrary stuff about the bible, I guess about as much as I would've learned on the other school had I stayed there. On top of that, they had special celebrations at christmas and easter and stuff, like advent. For a brief moment I believed in God, but I guess the way my parents raised me was unfit to keep this faith. I think without them, I still would've found out about the God's inexistence, but only a couple years later.

Anyway, soon afterwards I changed schools to a public one. Education was really sucky there compared to the former school, but I was a smart boy, so I didn't need much more to learn anyway [joke]. At this school they didn't teach anything about religion. There also were a lot more muslims at this school. Religion was something outside of that place.

On high school, I had a whole lot religions at history, but only judaism, christianity, islam and most prevalent the old faith of the greek and roman people, which is in my opinion the most fun kind of religion. Plural gods, animals, it all makes the whole thing of believing much more fun, when the gods themselves can be jealous, sexual active etc.


Most people of our time and area have similar experiences, more or less. We grow up in relatively secular societies, with a tradition of christianity and some judaism. Since a handful of decades we fought ourselves free from the burden of going to the church every sunday (at leats in europa, in the USA they're nuts), and education and TV inform us about the multiplicity of faith in the forms of above-called and even more religions. In harsh times (not really, but the press makes us believe we're in rough times), people still seek salvation and a save heaven, so they convert to the somethingtheism. They reckon there has to be some deeper understanding, like Palme stated.

Now I wonder, what is it that some people still seek deeper understanding, and others, like me, don't see any reason for deeper understanding? I like to believe that I replaced this empty feeling with the alternative called science. Could that be right, is that what divides both groups, that one group doesn't appreciate science as the sufficient omnipotent force, while the second group does, maybe likewise foolishly?

I understand I formulated this quite vaguely, somehow it translates very badly in english. :?
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Post by Antz »

Oh ye btw, i CHALLENGE all of you people who actually claim to strongly be christian and to believe in god, watch a document called 'zeitgeist'. watch through the documentary. well, the first 40 minutes anyway, then it goes off on a tangent with 911 conspiracy. but watch the first 40 minutes. feel free to check wikipedia while you're watching, i checked some 10 of the claims and they seemed accurate enough, the parallels between some of the stories.

if your god is the true God, then this small test of faith i put in front of you should be a simple thing to watch through and dismiss. i'd like to hear comments from you afterwards. (you can watch it at http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ )
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Post by Igge »

I'm a christian, and no internet site will ever change that. (ye0 april foalz)
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