Online battles & endless number of pipe levels

dz · Post by dz » 28 Aug 2008, 16:30

I wish it did not have come to this, but it is. No longer creative and fun levels to battle, but an endless number of pipe type levels, which for many are just not fun at all.

What do you think is the reason for this? Personally I think it's the low number of active experienced level makers - old guys doens't get inspiration any more to create levels. This leads to the new players making most of the levels, and unfortunately new guys makes a lot of pipes.

Its very sad to so many times join an online battle, and see another pipe level, try a two or three times, and then quit. This has been true for me for too many times lately.

The_BoneLESS · Post by **The_BoneLESS** » 28 Aug 2008, 16:42

I have to agree on this, pipe levels are really a big part of the battles on belma.

Even i, as a pipe lover, do not design that many pipe battles (i might have done around 5).
Maybe the cause for this rise of the pipes is that it is way more simple to design a good casual pipe level than a good normal level.

I guess i will try to make more levels, ...more normal levels from now on.

PS: barryP, don't stop to make those HazPi levels, those pies are fucking tasty!

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 28 Aug 2008, 17:43

yeh i try nat to make too many pipes. since i started playing teh belma a month ago, ive made some 70 levels, 4-5 of which were pipes. I have to say I agree that there are too many pipes atm, and yes, i do believe that this is a result of pipes being max easy to make.

Anyway I'll try to make even less pipes in the future, and ill try to only balle the good ones (to me, the only good snaaab pipe sofar is snaaab69)

But yeh, making a good 'normal level' usually takes longer time than making a pipe, cause well, pipes are max straight forward. no alternative styles to be tested, no styles need to be balanced, and no tricks need to be considered.

ah well, I'll just try to make more 'normal' levels from now on.

Sla · Post by **Sla** » 28 Aug 2008, 18:44

Yes god, thx for this topic dz. Totally agree. I think that the high number of pipe levels is because there are much beginner players, when i started making levels 5 years ago i loved to drive through a reduced space (pipe nowdays) and when i download a new lev and i see its a pipe, i do some tryes and then i go to try the serp tale bounce.
I try to make good levs but those are not good lately

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 28 Aug 2008, 19:22

yeah! another pipe atm! hurry or you'll miss it! Ive never seen anything like this before! it's a pipe-uphill! omg hurry!

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 28 Aug 2008, 19:28

i luv pipe balles =)

Mawane · Post by **Mawane** » 28 Aug 2008, 19:57

i loev them too

Orcc · Post by **Orcc** » 29 Aug 2008, 06:52

Pipes always kill my battle-mood. Even if I don't like pipes I can still play one or two every now and then, but it just feels like whenever I go play belma there's a pipe battle running.

Big hand to those who make great normal levs, I know it's frustrating to make a good lev and in exchange get crappy levs from others.

Juble · Post by **Juble** » 29 Aug 2008, 07:10

dz wrote:I wish it did not have come to this, but it is. No longer creative and fun levels to battle, but an endless number of pipe type levels, which for many are just not fun at all.

What do you think is the reason for this? Personally I think it's the low number of active experienced level makers - old guys doens't get inspiration any more to create levels. This leads to the new players making most of the levels, and unfortunately new guys makes a lot of pipes.

Its very sad to so many times join an online battle, and see another pipe level, try a two or three times, and then quit. This has been true for me for too many times lately.

poor dz
:*

insane guy · Post by **insane guy** » 29 Aug 2008, 10:02

The_BoneLESS wrote:Maybe the cause for this rise of the pipes is that it is way more simple to design a good casual pipe level than a good normal level.

true.

I am deliberately not playing elma at the moment, I think for the first time since I started playing at all, but this pipe flood was already there when I was still playing and it annoys me very much. ItÂ´s just like Orcc said, it ruins battle mood when you have to play pipe levs all the time. I think a pipe now and then is ok but for me elma is about style finding and doing crazy tricks which usually isnÂ´t part of a pipe lev.

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 29 Aug 2008, 12:57

when seeing pipe lev in belma makes me go "YES!" since if the guy had made a normal lev it would be some megashit one. only if the regular levs were better, wouldn't mind less pipes at all.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 29 Aug 2008, 15:16

care.com, and kind of agree with zamppe. what happened with jappe, bjorn, zebra and ramone making 10 regular battles a day? o7

Ali · Post by **Ali** » 29 Aug 2008, 17:28

nothing kills my ballemood more than another 15+ min pipe from koen/koopa/random nab. but maybe that's good thing, as i play too much belma anyway =)

Xarthok wrote:what happened with jappe, bjorn, zebra and ramone making 10 regular battles a day?

Orcc wrote:it's frustrating to make a good lev and in exchange get crappy levs from others.

QFT!

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 30 Aug 2008, 15:37

implement pipe mode which has a few hour cooldown and if upload pipe level as normal balle ez bane

Kale · Post by **Kale** » 31 Aug 2008, 12:09

Bane for all pipes is teh solution.

I usually don't make pipes, made maybe 10 pipe levels in belma and some of my levels may contain small pipes but only as a part of teh lev.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 31 Aug 2008, 20:38

Pipes are boring. and as said, it spoils my battle mood. I most often quit belma when pipes come on. its just no styles. Also, I suck at them, maybe if I could drive them they woudlnt be so horribly boring... I dont know.

But they spoil belma.

If I understood zweqs post correct, add 2 modes in belma, one for normal levs and one for pipes? That would be just awesome.

And I dont agree with dz that rather pipe than crappy normal ones... most levs are playable. And how should these levelmakers make better normal levs if they only keep making pipes???

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 31 Aug 2008, 20:38

Pipes are boring. and as said, it spoils my battle mood. I most often quit belma when pipes come on. its just no styles. Also, I suck at them, maybe if I could drive them they woudlnt be so horribly boring... I dont know.

But they spoil belma.

If I understood zweqs post correct, add 2 modes in belma, one for normal levs and one for pipes? That would be just awesome.

And I dont agree with dz that rather pipe than crappy normal ones... most levs are playable. And how should these levelmakers make better normal levs if they only keep making pipes???

kaunaoti · Post by **kaunaoti** » 31 Aug 2008, 20:51

i dont like pipes usually i take 2 or 3 appels whrn 5 im happy

J-sim · Post by **J-sim** » 1 Sep 2008, 02:13

BEST TOPIC EVER!!!111

<3<3<3 dz

YES, it had to come to this. let's make this a bloody revolution. from now on no pipes whatsoever or die.

nony · Post by **nony** » 1 Sep 2008, 07:56

i don't like pipes either, but i think that this 'flood' comes especially from beginners. i remember when discovering recs that i used to watch pipe recs like crazy over and over and didn't understand how can someone drive like that. i used to think it's a bot or something... i guess this is why many nabs start them, as they want to see them finished.

Orcc wrote:Big hand to those who make great normal levs, I know it's frustrating to make a good lev and in exchange get crappy levs from others.

perfectly well said! i get that feeling too, but i'll try to make some more soon.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 1 Sep 2008, 11:47

I've got another idea, in new belma levelmakers with a high average battle level rating can start battles before a queue with lower rated levelmakers..

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 1 Sep 2008, 12:59

haha that's cool!

CMc · Post by **CMc** » 1 Sep 2008, 20:40

I haven't been around in belma for a while now. But I was just curious...is it that ppl are just making crappy pipes or what? Cause back in the day (like 2 yrs ago), thats all everyone wanting. I made 4 pipes to every 1 normal level. When I started making more normal levels, everyone would beg for pipes. Funny how everything changed.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 2 Sep 2008, 15:21

CMc I think there's still many begging for pipes, those people are just not so active here on mopolauta. For the same reason complaining here about too many pipes probably won't change anything. One can only hope that new version and designer stats and lev ratings will attrach some of the good designers aswell as make people realise that many doesn't like pipes.

dz · Post by dz » 2 Sep 2008, 20:47

ramone wrote: And I dont agree with dz that rather pipe than crappy normal ones.

I did not said that, you must have confused me with someone else. I prefer a crappy non-pipe over a regular pipe.

The idea that pipe battles would be seperated sounds very exciting! This would require either:

1) Developement work from milagros, to have the possibility to play in different "battle rooms". One would be pipe levels.
2) Just setup two belma server instances, very easy. This would only require changing ports that are used, and setup a bit on the server.

CMc · Post by **CMc** » 3 Sep 2008, 00:34

dz, thats actually not a bad idea. I personally love pipe levels for some reason...I always have. But every real designer or real player knows that they are completely different. It would be nice to have two different servers for that reason. Hopefully some day milagros can set belma up like that.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 3 Sep 2008, 09:31

I don't think dividing it into two servers would be a good idea either. It's not like there's that many players, and this would cause even less players in each battle. And if you like both, not that I do, you have to change port and check both and such much work.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 3 Sep 2008, 11:47

Today i broke my promise and balled a pie anyway. but i did tend to the necessary precautions.

first i made sure the level was good.
then i asked whether anyone ahd queued a new lev, no one answered
then i asked if anyone was against it, no one said yes.
then i asked whether it was ok, and if anyone actually wanted a pie, people said like 'yes' and 'put'
then balled

think most people enjoyed teh. nat sure about everyone though.

zebra · Post by **zebra** » 3 Sep 2008, 13:22

The thing why noobs make lots of pipes is that an ok pipe is easier to make than an ok level. When you are making an ok pipe (not excellent but not bad either), you don't really have to think of anything - just to make sure that the pipe doesn't go so thin that it can't be driven anymore. As long as the pipe is finishable the pipe players will like it. But making an ok level (non-pipe) is a bit harder because you have to think of the styles how it can be driven.

But I think pipes are not the biggest problem. I think the bigger problem is that the levels are too hard. Nobody likes levels which can be only barely finished by some pros, while all the other players get bored when trying to get the first or second apple. A battle level should be finishable for 90% of the battlers. Then it's easy enough.

Then there is the point of view that pipe level doesn't require any style finding skills. I guess most of the ppl like style finding, as long as it's not a random giant apple harvest. That's why I prefer normal levels.

About making separate pipe server/mode: there are always levels which have pipe shortcuts etc but which are 90% normal levels. Would they be allowed in the normal level server?

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 3 Sep 2008, 13:53

zebra wrote:
About making separate pipe server/mode: there are always levels which have pipe shortcuts etc but which are 90% normal levels. Would they be allowed in the normal level server?

I bet nobody would be online on a separate pipe server, I swear to god I wouldn't at least. I like pipes but regular battles are still better. One pipe a day is enough for me at least when I'm playing belma.''

Maybe if you have ircbots on 2 different channels and there's nothing going on on the other server you could just switch for some piping. Then it could be quite nice.

Pipe mode sounds good to me, I'm not sure did you mean like 24hour tt is atm on beta server, running on background. That'd be the best case since you wouldn't lose any stats. But that's only fancy talk, we know that any changes are in one guys hands and probably none of us even know how much work it would be to make everything work properly.

it's just funny, we can't do shit anyway, just whine, mila will do the rest anyway. he probably doesn't even care what kind of levs are being battled. what we could do however is educate people to make better levs.

Also! this might be smaller problem in nxt version because of different user rights so nabs cant even start a battle and if there will be level rating system and proper reward for having high rating on your battle levels (and no fuckface fucks the db up) the problem might get fixed automatically. At least I can see about 10 people instantly voting 1 star on all pipe levels

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 3 Sep 2008, 17:35

zebra wrote: But I think pipes are not the biggest problem. I think the bigger problem is that the levels are too hard. Nobody likes levels which can be only barely finished by some pros, while all the other players get bored when trying to get the first or second apple. A battle level should be finishable for 90% of the battlers. Then it's easy enough.

Then there is the point of view that pipe level doesn't require any style finding skills. I guess most of the ppl like style finding, as long as it's not a random giant apple harvest. That's why I prefer normal levels.

my pipe was multistyled, and had 1 ez style and 1 hard. like perfect ;D

but jeu, by now we have like 5 or 6 posts saying that making normal levs are harder than making pipes. we all know that, but just repeating it won't change a thing. we have to figure out how to make people stop just producing pipes, but the annoying thing is teh:

they make pies cause theyre ez, and they like it ez because they dont want to/can't make hard (=normal) levels. so if we do tell them to stop making pies, maybe what we'll end up with is crappy 'normal' levs, because the nabs who make pies, can't make good normal ones.

it's like, we tell them not to make pies, we end up with crap levs, but if we dont say anything, they will keep making pies = crap

Tis like an impsy scenario. either we get crap or we get crap. the only solution i can see would be to get teh pr0s making more normal levels, but yeh, like previously mentioned: sax when making nice levs, watching others play it, then youre left with playing teh nabcrap, cause no oneelse can be bothered to make nice levs.

zebra · Post by **zebra** » 4 Sep 2008, 06:14

Igge wrote: Tis like an impsy scenario. either we get crap or we get crap. the only solution i can see would be to get teh pr0s making more normal levels, but yeh, like previously mentioned: sax when making nice levs, watching others play it, then youre left with playing teh nabcrap, cause no oneelse can be bothered to make nice levs.

The solution which Xarthok suggested could work: the designers with higher designer rank could get past noobs in the battle queue. But again, that suggestion has some downsides as well: new good designers could get irritated if they had to wait their battle for the whole day.

We have also that problem that the noobs we would like to stop making crap pipe levels are not reading this thread.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 4 Sep 2008, 14:59

zebra wrote: We have also that problem that the noobs we would like to stop making crap pipe levels are not reading this thread.

sooo true it's scary. Can't tell you how many times I've asked myself the question 'Do tehse people even know what lauta is?'

the designers with higher designer rank could get past noobs in the battle queue.

[/quote]

so what happens when the good designer(s) leave? then all of the previously, by the nabs, added levs will come at once = yeah! 8 pipes in a row!

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 4 Sep 2008, 15:04

Igge wrote:they make pies cause theyre ez, and they like it ez because they dont want to/can't make hard (=normal) levels. so if we do tell them to stop making pies, maybe what we'll end up with is crappy 'normal' levs, because the nabs who make pies, can't make good normal ones.

it's like, we tell them not to make pies, we end up with crap levs, but if we dont say anything, they will keep making pies = crap

I don't see this as a big issue, I'd prefer an awful normal level over an excellent pipe level any day. Personally I don't really care if a battle level isn't that good, as long as there is levels to be played, I rarely use more than five minutes myself when making one. (Ofcourse I would prefer good levels, but you know what I mean (I hope))

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 4 Sep 2008, 15:14

yeu i know. but i dunno why, but i cant balle bad levels. I can easily make a good lev in 5 mins, but sometimes it just wont happen, and i end up with some crap. and i just can't balle crap - even if there's no other level queued or sach.

but maybe ill start doing teh, to even out the number of pipes?

niN · Post by **niN** » 6 Sep 2008, 12:04

I'll say what I've always said about pipes: I don't like pipes.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 7 Sep 2008, 04:01

I always try to make decent levs and now im doing only pipes, i dont get inspiration to make normals (but i have good normal levs

)

One problem, i think, is that there are many new players coming and they see a PIPE and say waaaa how the hell is this, "something new and very interesting" .Then they make quick crap annoying levs with the most simple desing, very boring. but always the replays are pros so they keep making.

Many ppl that make pipes are good making normal levels, come on!

Sorry for bad eng.

______________________________________________________________________
Chek adverstings for my pipes

had alredy made 90 but only uploaded 60.

Sla's Avatar Rules

P.D.: i see now that dz said the same xD damn ill stop reading fast in English

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 10 Sep 2008, 17:52

HI!

THIS IS HOW TO GET PPL TO STOP UPPING PIPES:

*LEAVE BELMA AND DONT COME BACK EVERYTIME A PIPE STARTS!
*MAKE SURE YOU SAY WHY YOU LEAVE SO PPL UNDERSTAND!
*IF ENOUGH PPL LEAVE BELMA WHEN PIPES COMES UP PPL WHO START THEM WILL BE BORED CAUSE HALF BUNCH LEAVE CAUSE OF THEIR LEVEL!
*FROM NOW ON I WILL LEAVE BELMA EVERY TIME A PIPE START!

(As some one above asked. is pipeshortcut in normal lev a pipe? Of course its not! The levels were are talking about is (for most) pipes with apples)

Post by **SveinR** » 10 Sep 2008, 18:34

I don't believe this is a problem. The popularity of pipe battles vary; I remember a few years ago there was also an abundance of pipes, but it changes. And my guess is that the dynamics of battle lev types will change when the new version of belma is released. Maybe people will complain about there only being stupid speed levs made by naabs. Anyway, the new site and stats and whatnot will probably encourage players as well as good lev makers to be more active.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 10 Sep 2008, 19:47

SveinR wrote:Maybe people will complain about there only being stupid speed levs made by naabs.

'maybe'..

I'm almost certain we'll see about 500% more speedloops. and these speedloops will prolly be bad aswell, since only nabs will make them (because the good levelmakers will have to make even more good, 'normal', levels, to balance out the crap). These speedloops will be the kind in which you die cause you get too much speed after 2 loops and/or where they add gravity so that the loop can be even bigger (COal!!!3)

anyway, think we should to teh: only pr0 deigners can use the new speed function.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 10 Sep 2008, 23:41

speed loops by noobs can be fun

these levels often offer great playability

they dont know whats doable or not so you can do the most funny unintended trick

I like

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 11 Sep 2008, 05:39

I agree with Ramone but only half-ways.

Like internals, made by not-so-good players, they have nice styles here, but usuaÃ¶Ã¶y so smooth loops etc. there, makes shit playability.

J-sim · Post by **J-sim** » 12 Sep 2008, 17:02

i don't think that you actually have to leave elma. i just don't play battle levs when they come.
either way the 'problem' actually hasn't been that big the last few weeks. and the general quality of levels has been really amazing the last few days. almost feels like 2005 era or sach. cheers to all the good lev makers

Xratio · Post by **Xratio** » 13 Sep 2008, 17:11

guess whos back

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 13 Sep 2008, 19:35

berh?

Post by **SveinR** » 13 Sep 2008, 21:23

Xiphias wrote:berh?

No, Xratio is just Xratio I'm afraid.

Xratio · Post by **Xratio** » 14 Sep 2008, 19:29

or Xratione (akb)

[AMG YAYAYAYAYAY SVEINR SED MA NAME YAYAYYAAYA]

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 14 Sep 2008, 19:33

ok. enjoy your ban.

devin · Post by **devin** » 17 Sep 2008, 22:16

oK, i agree that creative levs should be the standard.

But what im really posting for is for the simple purpose of a question: Does Xratio even play in belma? Or am I so oblivious to the belma world around me to not notice. Or probability no.3 I don't spend enough time there!

HAHA useless post, thx for your time!

devin · Post by **devin** » 17 Sep 2008, 22:16

oK, i agree that creative levs should be the standard.

But what im really posting for is for the simple purpose of a question: Does Xratio even play in belma? Or am I so oblivious to the belma world around me to not notice. Or probability no.3 I don't spend enough time there!

HAHA useless post, thx for your time!