Greater Possibility?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 14 Jul 2010, 16:36

Sorry guys I hate making new topics but I couldn't think about anywhere else to put this.

In your opinion or from expereince what is a harder to do, the bounce on lvl 48 as done in the cheated 300 avr movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EryrDPBd4oY very end or John's Animal farm replay and doing the somewhat of a bounce up to octopus in the air?

Feedback would be appreciated and if you have pulled off either of them, how you did it.

jblaze · Post by **jblaze** » 14 Jul 2010, 17:24

Memphis wrote:doing the somewhat of a bounce up to octopus in the air?

Can i see rec of it?

Why are times in this video fake?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 14 Jul 2010, 17:52

the video of downhill has a link up there and the time is 42:xx. The animal farm rec is 1:10:xx by John.

jblaze · Post by **jblaze** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:03

OK, but why these times are fake?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:24

John's 1:10 animal farm time is real and the downhill one is cheated (using save load program). I am saying if "one" were to go for a wr basically what one should they go for.

The_BoneLESS · Post by **The_BoneLESS** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:55

Seeing that only one of those two was actually made by a human being without cheating, i'd go for Animal Farm.

And i also strongly hate Downhill so i might be biased.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:15

True bone, but I think the reason may be, no one has tried the downhill bounce until yesterday. Pab, Kiiwi and myself were tearing it up on a practice level yesterday and variations of the bounce seem quite possible. Now I gotta find out how much time that actually saves.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:25

go to the 2:54 mark in this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdoUGbjo-Tc

and the 6:52 mark in this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EryrDPBd4oY

and try to hit play at the same time. Seems like the bounce saves you a fair bit of time if done correctly.

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:03

About bounces in downhill - the one in the middle ("shortcut" place) normally saves around 1.5 second, can save more. The one in the very end saves surprisingly alot of time either, if done properly. But it's freaking risky and requires huge portion of luck though, especially considering the general annoyingness of the level itself. It's just a big luckbox!
So on itself the very end of downhill is much easier than octopusjump, but with all the parts that precede it... it becomes hell hard. Ez for zweq tho i guess

And there is no bounce in Animal Farm, or did i miss something? Simply a jump or smth.
I have lots of these infamous cheated recs archived, so i decided to upload 48 and 31 to check out and merge. In 31 some sick start-style is used (which i suggested just for lulz, and he realized it), and also an easier but slower octopusjump-style is shown (i believe Cap suggested this variant of getting the needed speed).

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:38

I'll have to check those out when I get home Anpdad.

The jump that I was more refering too in downhill is the mid one. The tricks leading up to that bounce are ez so you can get there 9 times out of 10. It's afterwards like you say that gets tough. I wouldn't try for end of level bounce if I had a solid run going with mid bounce as it would be way to risky. But even after you do mid bounce on this lvl still many dangerous parts after.

On Animal farm, right before John leaves the dinasour tail he gets a spring/boost/bounce that helps him reach the octopus. As it stands now, it seems to me that downhill would be easier to get wr because I find too many animal farm tricks way to hard.

Kiiwi · Post by **Kiiwi** » 15 Jul 2010, 18:11

Both have their good and bad sides ofc. I agree with memphis in that Downhill seems WAY ezier at least when it comes to completing the style in question.
Wr could be very hard tho' when u consider all the parts that follow, even to make a decent (sum 46-48.xx) poses a great challenge even for a pro player (i'd say), not to mention to make a wr-run...hard and scary volts and stuff o.O.

Then again Animal farm seems already after seeing and trying to replicate John's wr run an INHUMANE, uncomprehensible task...But, if u could get the hang of it (dunno if possible for most ppl) one can ezily see that making a speedy brutal mouse part could cut a second or two (even more?) thus making the idea of animal farm wr much more ezier then downhill.

In my opinion it's hard o determaine which would be ezier (realistically) wr, but i'd still go with downhill , like memphis

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 15 Jul 2010, 23:51

siick to see those tricks in recs anpdad, too bad theyre cheated

1.09 in anal niceeee

trew · Post by **trew** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:12

With that sick start in AF, 1.07 is possible.

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 17 Jul 2010, 08:57

Pawq wrote:siick to see those tricks in recs anpdad, too bad theyre cheated 1.09 in anal nice

You can always drive an uncheated one, that's why uploaded this shit in the first place:) 1:07 in AF is so outrageously hard it's not funny. If someone makes it in the nearest future, i'll build that guy an idol in my backyard to worship teh every morning.
Downhill in 44:xx looks like a child's play comparing to this stuff. Speaking of the midbounce...i believe you can find a sequence of volts that gives you right angle on landing 9 times out of 10, but i couldnt find it, so the bounce was quite random (like 0.1% of success). Getting rid of that randomness will really make level hoylable. Hopefully Memphis tries for a wr here)

trew · Post by **trew** » 17 Jul 2010, 10:23

It's funny merging the AF rec with Johns. John is a second ahead at the bird, and then he looses 2 seconds in the end. Means 1.08 is atcually possible with Johns style.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:15

wtf these cheated recs
it does not motivate ppl to do teh without cheat, it actually demotivates them

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:17

ya anpdad, I think ur right though. downhill seems way more doable. 1:07:xx in animal farm would be mad tricks and frankly not sure if you can do it without saveload.

As for the downhill. been playing quite a bit of it and the mid bounce is very hard to pull off. after watching that replay a bunch of times it seems like the angle going into the mid bounce is key so that when you hit the brake, it spins u right around to bounce on tire. So far only completed a handful of times but nothing as good as the replay version. If you could tell me how to do 9 times out of 10 mid bounce, would be greatly appreciated.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:22

milagros wrote:it does not motivate ppl to do teh without cheat, it actually demotivates them

WTF?

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:48

Pawq wrote:WTF?

what is that hard to understand?
pro players cant be bothered to try too hard trick if someone did teh with xiit before
spreading impsy xiited recs would kinda kill the game

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:52

milagros wrote:wtf these cheated recs
it does not motivate ppl to do teh without cheat, it actually demotivates them

O&U, New Wave, Turnaround, Quick Round, Shelf Life, What the Heck etc... I don't think it demotivates them.

Just shows it's possible, so there is a little chance to succeed.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 17 Jul 2010, 17:55

i don't think ppl actually aimed to beat cheated wrs and also all those were just hoyled old styles except o&u which was thought to be slower

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 17 Jul 2010, 23:07

what is that hard to understand?
pro players cant be bothered to try too hard trick if someone did teh with xiit before
spreading impsy xiited recs would kinda kill the game

In most cases, yes. Not in these ones i think. AF rec shows just a different start (which no one would even try. Well, maybe just for teh lulz), and merges nicely with John's rec. And serves simply like a reminder of possible "ez" 2sec improvement. DH rec was uploaded for more comfortable watching/merging/studying. At least for Memphis it was helpful as i see

except o&u which was thought to be slower

*was thought by zweq. Hence you too. Hence tons of random guys who didn't bother to test it out and simply believe the "general" opinion. Which isn't a good thing imo.

i don't think ppl actually aimed to beat cheated wrs and also all those were just hoyled old styles except o&u which was thought to be slower

I'm quite positive that they didn't specifically go for beating these cheated times mostly. Still, cheated recs, which didn't look any impressive, but still being 0.3-0.5s ahead of current wr, have made some impact imo (e.g. Quick Round. Correct me if i'm wrong). Which was the only purpose of sharing lots of them (well, ~50%) on youtube back then (btw, i was against sharing at first, but after some conversations with Coc0k (who wasn't sure too) i've changed my mind, and don't regret it).

SHORT: i don't think it's any bad.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 18 Jul 2010, 02:03

Anpdad, I thank you for showing the downhill replay. I was getting sick and tired of watching that movie trying to analyze the pre mid bounce to downhill. So much easier watching the replay. I think mila u got a bit of a point as well but in this day and age, wrs are so hard to beat then ever before and without viewing cheated recs to show it's possible to shave some serious time then no one would try. Right now we got atleast myself, talli and pab working on Downhill mid bounce and maybe a few others. Would have never tried to beat zweq's crazy time on that lvl unless I saw it was possible. Even when I went for my original New Wave and Animal farm wr, ANpdad showed me replays (I don't think they were cheated) of guys doing certain tricks fast and it gave me motivation to hoyla 2 wrs. Maybe one last one in my old age!

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 18 Jul 2010, 03:00

it's just bullshit
do you think if i saveloaded some let's say pipe brutal, anyone would be motivated to try it? no that noone knows whether it is possible, so ppl actually try now and then, after seeing some rec, noone would
knowing that lets say "ez bowling 48.xx" does not mean anyone will actually do anything close to it without cheat?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 18 Jul 2010, 05:03

doesn't make much sense to me man. I mean if someone shows u pipe brutal can be done even if it is a cheated rec, I'd be like shit I will try to replicate it and get the wr. Your saying that if someone is shown how it is done with a cheated replay they won't want to get the wr?

Kiiwi · Post by **Kiiwi** » 18 Jul 2010, 09:15

Can't say what anyone else thinks but few of them saveloaded times gave me a very positive vibe (e.g. Downhill) and had me thinking/wanting to hoyl (were i skillled enough) few of them, since they show what a simply clean run can do, not to mention if u manage to pull off few sik tricks

But as said, these things clearly are matters of taste and character so there's no point in arguing whether it's a good or a bad thing (clearly xiiting should always be a bad thing, but then again if it has no "purpose" or isn't used to gain anything....). Well the recs and vids are there and that's it, ppl think of what they will of them, end of story

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 18 Jul 2010, 10:09

My 2 cents:

"Found and pulled off a new WR style" sounds like a bigger achievement than "replicated a cheated rec."

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 18 Jul 2010, 12:11

"beat a wr with no cheats using a style from cheated recs" sounds good enough, i disagree with mila

Bismuth · Post by **Bismuth** » 19 Jul 2010, 02:04

In any video games, tool-assisted speedrunning always helped non-TASers to find ways to shave off time. Always. Point made.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 19 Jul 2010, 17:19

Elma is not any video game

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