Pab cheating online

Mawane · Post by **Mawane** » 6 Jul 2011, 03:04

sick new wr

http://beta.elmaonline.net/?s=stats&p=i ... 10[code]10. The Steppes Best Times
1. Pab [SV] 00:05,95
2. Zweq [WNO] 00:10,83
3. talli [EPO] 00:10,88
4. GRob [ngt] 00:10,98
5. adi [MiE] 00:11,16
6. Kiiwi [BAP] 00:11,38
7. Mika [27] 00:11,89
8. Mielz [EF] 00:12,38
9. mr [FM] 00:12,39
10. igge 00:12,39[/code]

Split this topic from New WRs //Orcc

Orcc · Post by **Orcc** » 6 Jul 2011, 08:16

Bjenn · Post by **Bjenn** » 6 Jul 2011, 14:18

Jappe wrote:he did get bane actually, one year

How did he do it? Was it on purpose by cheating, or just some bug?

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 6 Jul 2011, 14:41

i gave him patch where the head is reasonably heavier therefore it's possible to do backwards brutal easily

Hosp · Post by **Hosp** » 6 Jul 2011, 15:58

Pab, idiot!

Cya sometime

(Told him not to cheat online)

J-sim · Post by **J-sim** » 7 Jul 2011, 11:02

why would he get 1 year ban for this? that seriously seems rather silly. i mean he didn't try to send in his time to the wr table and he didn't cheat any battle wins, or what?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 7 Jul 2011, 16:24

damn berh is a bad influence on others! On aa side note, others may get a chance to win pipe battles now instead of pab cleaning house.

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 7 Jul 2011, 17:33

i wanted to be as friendly and helpful as possible, as usual, who knows me - knows i have rather minimal skill but whenever i can help by making a wanted level or keep battling alive at night or nicely talk with ppl

so we were talking, having fun, somehow the conversation went to sl and some tools, pab asked if i could share such or sth, then i thought hmm but i really love pab, admire his piping skills etc, so i gave it to him so he has some pleasant, nice time

i warned him not to do any better time than his best nor any impsy time cuz it's just simply lame and everybody will be angry about interfering the stats and top10

so we were having some funny time in warm up, doing sick tricks funny rides, but none time better than 16.00 or sach etc. etc. then i left for a while

when i came again i saw pab on the f5 list browsing one lev after another, he went mad or something, he didnt respond so i left to sleep

totally wouldn't have thought that this would get us a ban as it's widely known jon was showing also his tools several times and even he has cheated speed wrs in some internals and he was like applauded and appreciated

then i see it's a one year ban for me and for pab, i dont want to whine as i recently praised jappe2 for his healthy-for-scene attitude and i think that after all the experience he has been gaining through the years he should be a fair referee already

i just hope the whole issue will be sorted out and the bans will be taken down (just ask hosp, jblaze, or gimp who ere online then if we had any desire to cheat or do anything against the scene to earn such draconian nazi bans)

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 7 Jul 2011, 18:07

i didnt went that mad))))) just used for go the secret place at sink and that kind of things

and jappe, i didnt try to lie about it, i tryed to lie to you (now i see i shouldnt have to talk to you or anybody else than kopaka)
also said what i did in irc at the moment i did it but kopaka was sleepik

imo you cant treat me as a real cheater when i didnt make my own cheat and didnt try to prejudice any balle or cup or wathever
anyway i hope anything similar ever happen to you jappe

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 7 Jul 2011, 18:37

Ya a year ban is too long in my opinion for this too. Pab will play offline holyaing his jopi times even more and they will be even more unbeatable. Lets get this back on track.

Hosp · Post by **Hosp** » 7 Jul 2011, 18:53

Don't ban Paboo and Berher they're nice.

They just played a little! xD
But I told you Paboo not to drive times.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 7 Jul 2011, 19:06

I vote for giving the 1 year ban on Pab to Berh instead.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 7 Jul 2011, 20:35

berh is very good man in eol =)))

you know in belma i wanted him banned for 1 million years, i guess all wanted

but maybe im not the right person to judge him now xd

Kiiwi · Post by **Kiiwi** » 7 Jul 2011, 21:17

Memphis wrote: Pab will play offline holyaing his jopi times even more and they will be even more unbeatable.

Won't happen cuz any offline times are by default cheated and are not accounted for. All records (or times, whatever) must be driven online to be accepted.

This is how i understood the new rule intorduced after sl "incident" (correct me if i'm wrong)

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 7 Jul 2011, 21:37

i heard same thing, zamppe said he doesnt accept jopi time if its not at eol

but i wont ever want to make a sl rec to send for jopi o,o i appreciate jopis too much =)

Sla · Post by **Sla** » 7 Jul 2011, 23:49

Pab shouldnt have been used that tool online, but one year of ban by "trying" it for some minuts, in my opinion, is unfair because we know who is Pab, he isnt cheater/liar etc, come on. We must trust in good players like him.

jappe3:

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 8 Jul 2011, 06:56

you have to take into consideration: banning pab and berh from eol is equivalent to banning them from any internal times, external times, or cup times that could ever be "properly accepted". so if you want to be all high and mighty and ban them from eol for a year you might just possibly lose two players from our small loyal community as it is. go ahead and be a dick. really what they did is not a very big deal and everybody knows it but just doesnt have the balls to say it. and pab is a really good player and a good guy, tell me, would you do the same to zweq, markku? i highly doubt it.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 8 Jul 2011, 07:16

Jappe wrote:1. zero tolerance for cheating

It's simple. Pab gets ban because he cheated. There is a ZERO tolerance for cheating.

Berh was banned for supplying the tools, but i think berh is nice fellow to chat with recently and not need ban.

Bjenn · Post by **Bjenn** » 8 Jul 2011, 08:16

Haruhi wrote:
Jappe wrote:1. zero tolerance for cheating
It's simple. Pab gets ban because he cheated. There is a ZERO tolerance for cheating.

Berh was banned for supplying the tools, but i think berh is nice fellow to chat with recently and not need ban.

Yeah, berh never cheated at all. Not in belma and not in eol.

Bismuth · Post by **Bismuth** » 8 Jul 2011, 09:49

Then again how many times did we see people screw around a bit and many started crying for a permaban. The line is thin, either people will cry because he cheated and didn't get ban, either people will cry because he cheated just for a few minutes and didn't mean harm but still got a ban. Grow balls and stop cheating, I think that's the message you guys should understand.

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 8 Jul 2011, 10:01

Haruhi wrote:
Jappe wrote:1. zero tolerance for cheating
It's simple. Pab gets ban because he cheated. There is a ZERO tolerance for cheating.

Berh was banned for supplying the tools, but i think berh is nice fellow to chat with recently and not need ban.

wtf... seriously. Pab was a nice guy for years, never cheated or did anything bad to anyone. now he "cheated" some obvious internal time, because he wanted to try out cheat tools (who doesn't want to?) and you think he deserves a ban more than berh, who destroyed battles in belma multiple times, but is nice to talk to recently? everyone gone fucking crazy? ye, I think everyone deserves a second chance, and so does berh, but there is no fucking way that Pab deserves a one year ban and berh is the nice guy. and that Pab ban is totally crazy anyway, a warning or a one week ban would've totally done it, fuck your stupid zero tolerance policy. this isn't the south bronx it's fucking eol. and I'd rather see some cheated times every now and then than lose one of the coolest battlers in EOL! like gimp said, eol community is not that big anyway.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 8 Jul 2011, 12:19

Lukazz wrote:wtf... seriously. Pab was a nice guy for years, never cheated or did anything bad to anyone. now he "cheated" some obvious internal time, because he wanted to try out cheat tools (who doesn't want to?) and you think he deserves a ban more than berh, who destroyed battles in belma multiple times, but is nice to talk to recently? everyone gone fucking crazy?

Finally a reasonable post. Thank you luki.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 8 Jul 2011, 12:21

Just for comparison: Darmoed got 1 year ban for cheating 56 internal WRs and World Cup 4, Pab gets 1 year ban for one unintentional mistake.

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 8 Jul 2011, 12:21

Nicely said, Lukazz!

EDIT: by the way, this incident shows that eol doesn't provide enough defence against cheating. Anyone who has this tool could easily drive some time into eol db and then repeat it with smibu's s/l in offline mode. It would be pretty annoying to try to match times exactly, but possible nevertheless (it's very easy to do with hourglass btw, good for us it's detectable).

wipley · Post by **wipley** » 8 Jul 2011, 13:20

anpdad wrote:by the way, this incident shows that eol doesn't provide enough defence against cheating. Anyone who has this tool could easily drive some time into eol db and then repeat it with smibu's s/l in offline mode.

That, but in bold letters.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 8 Jul 2011, 16:31

well now I am not so sure my opinion on this. You said he had driven top 10 on several levels before this 5 second rec on steps? Like was he going to just keep driving great times and then producing recs after? Maybe 6 months is justified if this is the case but a year is too long.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 8 Jul 2011, 17:14

Lukazz wrote:
Haruhi wrote:
Jappe wrote:1. zero tolerance for cheating
It's simple. Pab gets ban because he cheated. There is a ZERO tolerance for cheating.

Berh was banned for supplying the tools, but i think berh is nice fellow to chat with recently and not need ban.
wtf... seriously. Pab was a nice guy for years, never cheated or did anything bad to anyone. now he "cheated" some obvious internal time, because he wanted to try out cheat tools (who doesn't want to?) and you think he deserves a ban more than berh, who destroyed battles in belma multiple times, but is nice to talk to recently? everyone gone fucking crazy? ye, I think everyone deserves a second chance, and so does berh, but there is no fucking way that Pab deserves a one year ban and berh is the nice guy. and that Pab ban is totally crazy anyway, a warning or a one week ban would've totally done it, fuck your stupid zero tolerance policy. this isn't the south bronx it's fucking eol. and I'd rather see some cheated times every now and then than lose one of the coolest battlers in EOL! like gimp said, eol community is not that big anyway.

in this instance, berh did nothing wrong, Pab broke the most core rule of elma. Keep in mind berh is permabanned anyway.

I think too big uproar over this. Pab cheated, got ban. Big deal, he'll do his ban and come back in one year. Just as Sla did back in the day, just as Darmoed did, just as Dx did.

Overpunishing comes way worse than this. People get death sentences for trying to smuggle $5 worth of weed into bali. Pab cheated in a game that clearly states "if you cheat, you will be banned" - So he gets ban. I don't see why we should change rules because Pab's one of the "coolest battlers in EOL."

The only post that makes a good argument in this whole debate is Madness'

wipley · Post by **wipley** » 8 Jul 2011, 17:19

The punishment should bear on the whole community instead of on Pab alone for arguing about close-minded things instead of constructively arguing for better ways to secure the records system. Face it -- anybody technical enough can cheat the system using the way anpdad in bold indicated.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 8 Jul 2011, 17:28

thx for support but seriously, i didnt make any top 10 and didnt save any replay memphis

just i feel i dont deserve to be treated as a cheater
i repeat i shouldnt have talk with jappe2 at irc, he has nothing to do with this, he is just a kuski with an opinion

i want to talk with kopaka but he doesnt seem interested on deciding something or has no time duno(
and yeah 1 year ban...im out.

This is not a big deal. You are making it a big deal, pls reason this situation and tell me something kopaka
its just a stupid time that gota be removed

5tr1k3r · Post by **5tr1k3r** » 9 Jul 2011, 05:05

Wtf people, are you serious? It's really wrong to ban Pab for this. Can't believe it.

gimp +1, Lukazz +1

EDIT: Also I should notice, elma core is players, ffs. And right now we're trying to make one of the friendliest, nicest and skillful persons out there quit? His only wrong decision was that he drove this time in online eol. I guess he didn't really think it over...

He never had wrong intentions, he never meant to drive a wr like this or something, isn't that fucking obvious?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 9 Jul 2011, 05:55

ya I fully agree it shouldn't be a year. I remember when I got banned on lauta for a month for posting too much which was stupid also. Anyway 3 months tops for pab. He is a good consistent player who is good for the scene.

analcactus · Post by **analcactus** » 9 Jul 2011, 12:58

lol, it's so fucking unpro!
Noobness is everywhere! Once AKB started his MEGAPRO bullets he's been banned, once i tried to change my nick, kopaka started to resist my requests, once sl has been shared, wrs would've been ridden online, once pab makes nice wr online, he's banned WHY?! Whut's wrong? What's nat legit? You suppose to change elma rules each time ANYTHING happens? Yesterday, lightning killed two people in St.Petersburg, we HAVE to change rules cuz of that

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 9 Jul 2011, 16:36

wipley wrote:The punishment should bear on the whole community instead of on Pab alone for arguing about close-minded things instead of constructively arguing for better ways to secure the records system. Face it -- anybody technical enough can cheat the system using the way anpdad in bold indicated.

simon has clever ideas.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 9 Jul 2011, 18:07

analcactus wrote:Noobness is everywhere!

ever seen teh mirror?

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 9 Jul 2011, 18:38

i want someone (not anyone ofc) tell me im banned im not how long whats up ???

haruhi im sorry i didnt have good talks with you like berh did, dont blame me for that o,o you have no sense

5tr1k3r · Post by **5tr1k3r** » 9 Jul 2011, 18:41

Let's just wait for Kopaka's response.

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 9 Jul 2011, 18:57

Igge wrote:I vote for giving the 1 year ban on Pab to Berh instead.

i'm in, if i can help, why not

btw sometimes i realize how the scene might be hilarious at times, now the funniest things are jappe lying just to lie (as always) that wrs are safe and nobody can cheat them (sometimes i think that even if there was a dead body behind him and police was just to search his house he would still lie there is nothing wrong there, he wouldn't escape, just trying to persuade)

second is super android mawane super mawane this nice mawane funny guy computer mawane reporting his own teammate from [SV], sick

http://www.moposite.com/news_comments.php?newsid=1821

http://up.k10x.net/giobdxctfwkoq/snp00023.png

bring on more hilariousness please

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 9 Jul 2011, 19:12

lol fu mawane wtf

anyway i would report my self if i knew how to do. also said i did this time in irc at the moment i did it

also want to know if jappe sent "my" 10 euros to eol donation after that ff...))

Sla · Post by **Sla** » 9 Jul 2011, 19:47

I find it funny how Mawane make posts and pics about his team mate.

About the ban, its totally unnecessary one year of ban because the mistake of Pab. One month or something should be correct.
Im sure this ban will not reach 1 year anyways.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 9 Jul 2011, 19:56

Just to make a few things clear :
Everybody takes eol for granted. But, .. this project is private and not-profitable (and illegal) and is not part of any official business. Our rules do not have to follow any kind official rules, we did not need to get any licence, we are not registered as an organisation anywhere and shit. Theoretically, I can just invite 5-6 friends and play with them without caring about anything like community. Or I can for example ban Mexico or niggers for no particular reason. You have to understand that if you play eol, you have to obbey the rules we (= me and Kopaka) have set. If you do not want to, you can code your own eol and play under your rules there. There is no democracy in here. Accept it. If I cared, I would easily ban all cheaters forever. They are simply not welcome. And these decisions do not have to be justified.

About cheating:
Elma wrs have never been safe from cheating. There were some cheated wr(s) which you can still find in the wr table history (not mine). But it is not as easy to cheat as anpdad (or who originally) proposed. Eol saves loads of information about each run (volts, turns, throttling time, ..), you can not simply do another run and drive the same time, it is not enough. If there was any suspicion, all this stuff can be checked. Eol knows when you started the run, when you finished, when you press which volt keys and shit. Even if hourglass or smibu's cheat worked there, all these statistics would be distorted. And it gets harder if you don't know what exactly is saved. Ofc, cheating is still possible, but not using any trivial method.

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 9 Jul 2011, 21:26

But it is not as easy to cheat as anpdad (or who originally) proposed. Eol saves loads of information about each run (volts, turns, throttling time, ..), you can not simply do another run and drive the same time, it is not enough.

Thanks for clarifying, this sounds encouraging. Looks like i jumped to conclusions too early here.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 10 Jul 2011, 01:00

I think enough has been said about the issue, surely all arguments have been mentioned already. I just wanted to add that I am against such a long ban for Pab, and quote myself:

Pawq wrote:A dark age for elma has begun.

I suppose this is yet another episode.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 10 Jul 2011, 09:22

Pab wrote: haruhi im sorry i didnt have good talks with you like berh did, dont blame me for that o,o you have no sense

Hey! ily Pab, you are for sure nice fellow, but you cheated and as far as i care, if you cheat you cop the ban for cheating. Like you knew that you would when you cheated.

I've spoken with you probably more than with berh, but berh did not cheat in this scenario. When berh DID cheat, he got his 1 year ban and he served it. In fact he got a permaban but that's not in place anymore.

It's like people trying to go into an exam with answers written on hand and then say "lolwhat i didn't write them there." they still get disqualified, no matter how nice person they are.

Serve ban, stay elma community and in one year return without cheats.

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 10 Jul 2011, 10:02

In that case ban Lousku and jon too for 1year for their 55int cheating

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 10 Jul 2011, 10:26

But Pab didn't actually lie to anybody!!! He drooove those times, but didn't pretend to be driving without tools! He wasn't trying to get any profits with it! Isn't that the main concern?

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 10 Jul 2011, 14:17

Since a lot has been said about this case, much of it untrue, I will try to make clear what happened (and since pab and berh is publicly talking about it I believe it's okay to do so too).

A user mentioned to me that he had seen them cheat online (head through walls) and that they talked about it in chat. So I read the chat, checked error logging aswell as the times they had driven during that time. berh made a 2 hour time in warm up with other times driven just about 1 minutes before and after which makes making a 2 hour time impossible ofcourse, and fitted with stuff he said in chat. Error log could tell me about the invulnerability and along with the impossible time in steppes (aswell as mawana's screenshot for that matter) proves that Pab was using cheat online aswell.

At first I didn't do anything but after a little chat about it in EOL mods channel it was clear all thought Pab should have some sort of ban atleast, so I gave it, 2 weeks felt like too little so gave 1 year which might be too much, but as Jappe said it isn't set it stone.
berh managed to get playing rights some time ago with some fake nick, I never wanted him in EOL in the first place, but as he was already in and seemed to be acting nicely I hadn't done anything yet about it, but after this(using cheats online and supplying others with it) I gave him 100 year ban. Some people talk about second chance, but he's already gotten a 300th chance..

Madness wrote:Just for comparison: Darmoed got 1 year ban for cheating 56 internal WRs and World Cup 4, Pab gets 1 year ban for one unintentional mistake.

It's not about the time(s) he made, so you can't really compare it like that. It's obvious the 5.xx time in steppes is not real ofcourse, so that's not a big deal no. It is about using cheats online and to some degree ruining the integrity of elma and especially EOL. Having curiosity is natural so I understand that people will try to use the different cheat tools if they get the chance, but as he said in #battle chat he didn't think he was using the cheated exe when the time in steppes was made. If you want to try cheat tools for fun you should be REALLY clear about what you're so there's absolutely no chance of making mistakes like that, so having it accidentally turned on and using it online at all shows no respect and a carelessness for elma and the community. THAT is what really is the crime here.

(for other that is using cheat tools for fun, I suggest that you make a new elma folder for that and remove your nick, pass, ip and check play offline in eolconf so there's no chance of making mistakes)

analcactus wrote:lol, it's so fucking unpro!
Noobness is everywhere! Once AKB started his MEGAPRO bullets he's been banned, once i tried to change my nick, kopaka started to resist my requests, once sl has been shared, wrs would've been ridden online, once pab makes nice wr online, he's banned WHY?! Whut's wrong? What's nat legit? You suppose to change elma rules each time ANYTHING happens? Yesterday, lightning killed two people in St.Petersburg, we HAVE to change rules cuz of that

I never directly resisted your nickchange, you didn't understand that you can change it without my help. We're not changing the rules, since day 1 of EOL rule 1.1 has been do not cheat. Ofcourse we can always discuss what defines cheating, but in rules it says nothing about "do not cheat in battles" or things like that, it's simply "do not cheat" and it should be pretty clear that invulnerability is a cheat.

So where to go from here? It's a diffucult case and hard to define the penalty, some says permanent ban and others say a warning. I will collect the different proofs and upload in eol mods channel and see what everyone thinks. The time will be removed ofcourse, along with some bug times we have, but it isn't as easy as just deleting a row in the db. I will try to find the best way to do it soon hopefully. Things like these can take a lot of time sometimes in elma scene, that's unfortunate ofcourse, especially for a guy like Pab that is unsure of his future in EOL, but there's not really anything to do about it. About other cases that people have mentioned, I haven't been aware of only heard loose rumours.

Let's end the post with this, I hope it's okay I quote it from eol mods channel

(zamppe) it's quite interesting that people that have played the game for several years do everything in their capability to destroy it. Does the addiction drive people mad or what?

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:00

ok i just read kopaka post and i think i should go and never come back even at lauta probably the best thing to do right

you know i have been playing for 4 years online and never cheated or had a xiit elma.exe and now i got hourglass slelma and mor xiit programs in 1 week and did this shit in eol, its obvioulsy i cant justify myself in any way, never meant to destroy elma, im so sorry to all .right now im very sad, seriously.

the best part is this can be fixed by deleting that time, and after that is very easy to go on

just want to tell i will be waiting a decision from kopaka and maybe you can pm me if is ok.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:02

With that clear up and the confirmation of berh cheating online too, i fully support both bans.

do ban, either quit or come back.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:07

Kopaka wrote:2 weeks felt like too little so gave 1 year

Not a very slight difference... :( Can't it be lowered to some 6 months? It's very long anyway and makes it certain that Pab (and others) will get a lesson, but decreases the time we'll be missing Pab, and as a matter of fact, the chance that he'll quit forever.. :(

anpdad · Post by **anpdad** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:22

pls lower the ban significantly. Or divide pab's ban with me then :D

having it accidentally turned on and using it online at all shows no respect and a carelessness for elma and the community. THAT is what really is the crime here.

Definitely. But he seems to have learned his lesson already, the incident got alot of discussion, many others see potential consequences. What is the purpose of 1month+ ban then?
Also, thanks Kopaka for your post, it was very straight to the point and informative, ez gaa post.