Pab cheating online

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:36

I think removing the ban would give a wrong message about how cheating or cheating tools should be treated. Every nab could go online and then just explain "Oops I didn't know, was an accident sorry I was just experimenting))". Maybe 1 year a bit too much for Pab for this dunno (don't care), but 100y for berh is just about right =)

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:40

nobody's talking about removing the ban, only 1 year too much in some guys' opinions :/

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 10 Jul 2011, 18:49

Hosp wrote:Don't ban Paboo and Berher

Igge wrote:I vote for giving the 1 year ban on Pab to Berh instead.

5tr1k3r wrote:It's really wrong to ban Pab for this.

Yeah?

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 10 Jul 2011, 20:22

Ville_J wrote:Maybe 1 year a bit too much for Pab for this dunno (don't care)

well, i care vj, if you dont care dont write the first that cames to your mind like that

i dont like elma, i dont like playing levels and crusing alone, if u dont see me online im not playing elma
i like belma, i like eol, i like this "comunity" right? i play eol, thats why i care and thats why i dont want this ban 1 year

Something apart from this
1 week ago was all so perfect, eol turned very fun for me since i backed from a 2 month break i decided to do by my self
also won this jappe ff that was so challenge and all ppl eyeing and anpad saying you will die pob and hand shaking u know.
and jappe said if someone finish it he will give 10 euros and all joking about i was going to be rich if i finish (im from uruguay, now you get it?

)
so finished and thoguht about donate 10 euros to eol so jappe did it, maybe many ppl didnt know, that was very good from jappe.
I feel like a big irony of this happening to me, i feel so dummy and unresponsable. "Did i learn my lesson?" what do you think.

so this is what i feel, i always wanted to keep in this comunity and keep making levels and new tricks, just for the ppl playing online u know

i always wanted to know why milagros and so many ppl dont play online ever, i know they have been playing elma for a long time.
i just dont have any good time playing offline and i understand it was rly idiot to use a xiit prgram online

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 10 Jul 2011, 20:28

What I meant with "not caring" is that I am totally fine with both 1 year ban for you or lowering the ban duration.

Uncle Milty · Post by **Uncle Milty** » 11 Jul 2011, 00:55

making the split between being a nazi judge and being a judge is hard, aight?

Dunno, how it is in other countries, but in Germany we have a thing calles "suspended sentence". Breaking a law might lead to a suspended sentence for a particular timespan that will warn the convicted and sets him under observance and special rules like "go to probation officer once a week". If he breaks a law again in this timespan (regardless of broken law) or the conditions of probation, his sentence will get converted to a full normal non suspended one.
This stuff is usually used with convited, that weren't previously convicted or showed remorse.

Seriously, if you wanna hold up the law, how about a suspended sentence for pab?
Give him 1year suspended sentence for having used a cheat-tool and put him under observance (dunno, maybe check his private and public chatlogs once in a while? i guess not doable but what), lower his rights maybe, give him conditions, but not ban him completely. Order him to do something cool for the scene maybe as one major condition; maybe something that most could do but are too lazy to do cause its hell a lot of work (can't think of anything concrete right now.)

I see remorse, i see a non previously convicted. I don't see a reason to be more rigorous than needed.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Jul 2011, 01:08

uncle milty, you should carefully read the first half of my previous post

Uncle Milty · Post by **Uncle Milty** » 11 Jul 2011, 01:15

yes, you are god. do whatever you like.

- edit-
well, as far as i see it, competetive Elasto Mania is impossible without eol and you gave us eol. I think we passed the line where eol was a spread private program for us to use and it morphed into Elasto Mania. What else.
But if so, we saw the community setting the rules for competing. Not only in Elasto Mania. Yeah, you are indeed god, you took total domination of elma and the community. sneakingly. grats.

Nvm, im just blubbering

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 11 Jul 2011, 01:22

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Jul 2011, 01:42

Uncle Milty wrote:yes, you are god. do whatever you like.

I haven't done anything yet and I won't.

Uncle Milty wrote:well, as far as i see it, competetive Elasto Mania is impossible without eol

That wasn't caused by me.

Uncle Milty wrote:But if so, we saw the community setting the rules for competing.

Community never set the rules, it was always one or two persons (Abula, px, ..).

Uncle Milty wrote:you took total domination of elma and the community. sneakingly.

What was the sneaky part?

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 11 Jul 2011, 02:58

I don't see how either kopaka's post or milagros would ever make me feel better about any of this. only points out that they have a dictator type of mindset about the whole thing, i am fully aware that all of our bitching and moaning theoretically might not mean anything, but im also aware that all of our bitching and moaning about pabs ban does indeed actually make you reconsider, hence it is not pointless for us to complain which is the impression that i got from you.

from my understanding of when people notice a punishment is too hard, they dont fear you more than begin to resent you. hypothetically, if i got a 1 year ban for this shit, i would quit and then come back in a year out of spite and then cheat all the fucking times on eol. if it was a 1 month ban, my lesson would be learned and id be a nice good boy for you.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 11 Jul 2011, 04:27

I tell you for an American you jumped to a "dictator" mindset very quickly, when in reality this whole argument perfectly represents what happens every single day in american courts, gimp

The community does set the rules, not Abula or px. Abula and px and so only put them in writing and enforce them. Abula never wrote a rule saying "Don't share saveload" but when Smibu DID share saveload, half of the community jumped on him in spite and hate. Ramone, Madness etc. all angry at Smibu for sharing it and then Smibu disappears for weeks on end. I'd much prefer to be in Pab's position with a 1 year ban and the community behind you to come back asap than in Smibu's position with no ban and most of the community that were good friends of yours 3 weeks ago now absolutely hate you.

I'm going to put this in an obnoxious bold to make it really obvious and to... you know, explain why it's the same as every other justice system in the modern day world.

If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

Do you think that i could go to court and say "Sorry judge i didn't mean to kill that man, i wasn't aware that he was standing behind me when i did a pirouette with that katana..." And have the judge say "That's okay son, you are free to go!"

No. The argument is why was i doing a pirouette with that katana in the first place? Why was Pab cheating in the first place? And especially with a tool that actually alter's the physics of the game.

Well this argument isn't going to end because modern players don't care for rules (hence so much rule breaking in belma/eol) - so i won't bother posting again. Good luck on 1year ban Pab, come back and absolutely rape everyone in balles again.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 11 Jul 2011, 04:46

Haruhi wrote:Do you think that i could go to court and say "Sorry judge i didn't mean to kill that man, i wasn't aware that he was standing behind me when i did a pirouette with that katana..." And have the judge say "That's okay son, you are free to go!"

But there is still a difference in punishment for murder and involuntary manslaughter.

Not that that's important at all, I just think that likewise EOL should have a similar feature.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 11 Jul 2011, 04:52

Haruhi wrote:I tell you for an American you jumped to a "dictator" mindset very quickly, when in reality this whole argument perfectly represents what happens every single day in american courts, gimp

Very ignorant of you and amusing for me to see you look down on me based on my nationality and undermine my opinions. I'll tell you I am probably one of the least patriotic Americans there are and my avatar is simply for my own humor in how quickly some people in this forum will judge me because I am American.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 11 Jul 2011, 07:05

gimp wrote:
Haruhi wrote:I tell you for an American you jumped to a "dictator" mindset very quickly, when in reality this whole argument perfectly represents what happens every single day in american courts, gimp
Very ignorant of you and amusing for me to see you look down on me based on my nationality and undermine my opinions. I'll tell you I am probably one of the least patriotic Americans there are and my avatar is simply for my own humor in how quickly some people in this forum will judge me because I am American.

Apologies for the stereotype. Not meant to be a personal attack, It still amuses me for you to call out dictatorship without looking at the "democratic" way courts in america are conducted.

niN · Post by **niN** » 11 Jul 2011, 08:43

milagros post is pretty clear imo. Even if that's not the way I would do things. I agree with many people here. And I think it's good we're discussing this.

on the topic, I think it's great that milagros spends so much time trying to fight methods of cheating on his unofficial (illeagal etc.) version of elma. The worst thing would have been if this was completely overlooked and the admins went well I don't care.

Bismuth · Post by **Bismuth** » 11 Jul 2011, 09:31

So much hate, so many attacks, so much blabbering, so much senseless arguing, just wtf are you guys doing, you all look like monkeys. This is not a discussion, this is an endless stream of bitching. Come on.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 11 Jul 2011, 11:17

Uncle Milty wrote:making the split between being a nazi judge and being a judge is hard, aight?

Dunno, how it is in other countries, but in Germany we have a thing calles "suspended sentence". Breaking a law might lead to a suspended sentence for a particular timespan that will warn the convicted and sets him under observance and special rules like "go to probation officer once a week". If he breaks a law again in this timespan (regardless of broken law) or the conditions of probation, his sentence will get converted to a full normal non suspended one.
This stuff is usually used with convited, that weren't previously convicted or showed remorse.

Seriously, if you wanna hold up the law, how about a suspended sentence for pab?
Give him 1year suspended sentence for having used a cheat-tool and put him under observance (dunno, maybe check his private and public chatlogs once in a while? i guess not doable but what), lower his rights maybe, give him conditions, but not ban him completely. Order him to do something cool for the scene maybe as one major condition; maybe something that most could do but are too lazy to do cause its hell a lot of work (can't think of anything concrete right now.)

I see remorse, i see a non previously convicted. I don't see a reason to be more rigorous than needed.

Well that's sorta how the banning system works, for example if you get a 2 week ban, then the next time you do something you get a 1 year ban, but if you don't do anything for a year you can once again get the 2 week ban first (or 1 week or warning). Only in this case I went with the direct 1 year ban, which might have been an overreaction and as I said it might still change.

gimp wrote:I don't see how either kopaka's post or milagros would ever make me feel better about any of this. only points out that they have a dictator type of mindset about the whole thing, i am fully aware that all of our bitching and moaning theoretically might not mean anything, but im also aware that all of our bitching and moaning about pabs ban does indeed actually make you reconsider, hence it is not pointless for us to complain which is the impression that i got from you.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned the eol mods channel quite a few times in my post and that I didn't even do anything before talking to other mods, but ofcourse you could still call it a dictatorship when it's a small group of people deciding things, but come on it's not like democracies have ever worked out well, but that's a different discussion

But also many times it can be hard to get a lot of opinions from people, or you get opinions that are very different so it's hard to make a decision from and someone has to make it, which often is me in EOL because I've got the power or simply because no one else does anything (for example there's a whole bunch of people who could have given Pab the ban).

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 11 Jul 2011, 11:44

I bet Pab's ban will be silently lifted sooner than in 1 year.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 11 Jul 2011, 11:55

Haruhi wrote:The community does set the rules, not Abula or px. Abula and px and so only put them in writing and enforce them. Abula never wrote a rule saying "Don't share saveload" but when Smibu DID share saveload, half of the community jumped on him in spite and hate. Ramone, Madness etc. all angry at Smibu for sharing it and then Smibu disappears for weeks on end.

Why mentioning me as an example ? I don't ever remember being angry about it nor expressing any hate.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 11 Jul 2011, 12:02

Actually very few people hate Smibu, the majority told him not to worry :)

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Jul 2011, 12:50

All these cheating issues take loads of time of the admins (till i tried to handle them myself) to fix all the fucked up data. Ofc, normal players don't care and complain about bans, because the guy was so nice to everybody.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 15:00

So to resume, i only fucked you milagros with this time in int10, and you are the boss of eol.

oh im pissed by dinosours.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Jul 2011, 15:26

if I was abula (master of exact stats) I would have to :
check logs for the detections of cheat (dunno why I removed autokick, prolly some random bugs every now and then) and find time when someone was using cheats, : check the table of connections at those times for their ID(s), check all runs under those IDs, mark them all as cheat, check which ones of those runs were also better than personal best (there are several copies of the same data mainly for speed-up), search for all real best times, update them. If it was in the battle, it would be even more messy (removing from one more table, updating result of each kuski). So if anyone wants consistent statistics (otherwise ez some pointer somewhere to some data which does not exist anymore), it takes approximately 10 mins (15 mins for battle run) to fix this kind of problems. If 10 ppl a day did it, I would be fucked. That's why there is that BAN option.

..btw. no wonder the time is still there and Kopaka didn't bother to update it yet (also zamppe's newwave bugtime should be one day, that's slightly easier, because of the certainty it's just one single time). It is fucking annoying.

edit:
I wasn't involved anyhow in the ban you got. Kopaka will be the one who will have to fix all the problems related to your cheating, so he will decide what ban you get. I fully support his decision, no matter if it is going to be one week or five years ban.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 11 Jul 2011, 16:07

This is a good discussion to be having as it may happen again with all them cheat programs out there now. I think conflict like this is good because it makes the community stronger in the end as a results. BTW, can a Canadian player or Aussie get admin rights for later on in the evening (PST) as there is never any moderators on then.

Side note, anyone seen Boneless or Leeland on EOL lately?

nick-o-matic · Post by **nick-o-matic** » 11 Jul 2011, 16:41

I wonder why it wasn't made simple to remove cheat/bug times when building up the system? I think it was clear from the beginning that eventually there will be lots of bug times ruining the statistics, especially in the max speed statistics due to bug bounces. Of course it's always easy to have wisdom after events though... =$

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Jul 2011, 16:43

it was very easy to remove bug times at first (old belma page by skint0r).. but then it was very slow to generate any kind of stats once the tables were large
ofc some script to deal with basic cases (= bugbounce) could be done:)

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 11 Jul 2011, 16:51

nick-o-matic wrote:I wonder why it wasn't made simple to remove cheat/bug times when building up the system? I think it was clear from the beginning that eventually there will be lots of bug times ruining the statistics, especially in the max speed statistics due to bug bounces. Of course it's always easy to have wisdom after events though... =$

It will be easy once I get around to make a script for it, so all those different checks and updates are automatic. Ofcourse speed records are a different story because it's not really possible to know when a speed is caused by a bug bounce, where to set the limit ect. (ofcourse some are obvious).

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 11 Jul 2011, 17:15

First, cheating tools are spread, everyone knows it, and ofc using them is NOT allowed. And by not giving Pab a real penalty we say cheating aint that bad, if you are a nice guy who we dont think would cheat, wtf is that? Cheat IS CHEAT, nevertheless! All cheats that comes to public should get GREAT penaltys.

Pab did not make a mistake, he knowingly used cheattools inside elma, it aint fun. And Luki said everyone wants to play around with that. first off, I dont, dont see the fun in it at all, and secondly, if you wanna play around with it (which STILL IS CHEAT) its fucking obvious you do it offline and dont fuck up EOL times. If a One-year ban is set, lets keep it that way, we cant soften up.

/Fredrik!

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 17:23

wow, ramone sounds so agresive always

maybe coz the topic was going calm

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 17:26

i think ramone wants me out of gaa desinger 2011, i was making interesting levs this year

and ramone making that lame ret

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 11 Jul 2011, 17:43

I did not cheat.

Also lame way to joke your way around it. Im not agressive nowadays, Ive always been agressive about cheating. Lame to talk yourself out of it. You did wrong, man up and take you punishment!

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 11 Jul 2011, 17:46

I think what might be fair is ban pab from eol for a few months and then ban pab from submitting any new internal times for a few years or something? I think that would be significant in my opinion.

culinko · Post by **culinko** » 11 Jul 2011, 18:10

ramone wrote:First, cheating tools are spread, everyone knows it, and ofc using them is NOT allowed. And by not giving Pab a real penalty we say cheating aint that bad, if you are a nice guy who we dont think would cheat, wtf is that? Cheat IS CHEAT, nevertheless! All cheats that comes to public should get GREAT penaltys.

Pab did not make a mistake, he knowingly used cheattools inside elma, it aint fun. And Luki said everyone wants to play around with that. first off, I dont, dont see the fun in it at all, and secondly, if you wanna play around with it (which STILL IS CHEAT) its fucking obvious you do it offline and dont fuck up EOL times. If a One-year ban is set, lets keep it that way, we cant soften up.

/Fredrik!

he did not use saveload which got spread to public, he used some shit from berh to increase head weight, speed, etc., afaik.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 18:14

calm down ramone

ye memphis i would agree with all you wana, anyway its said that my bad was not making a internal time but using cheats and thats the error

Culino: duno how works but only does that you cant die, so head can pass wall and that.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 11 Jul 2011, 18:15

CuLiNo wrote:
ramone wrote:First, cheating tools are spread, everyone knows it, and ofc using them is NOT allowed. And by not giving Pab a real penalty we say cheating aint that bad, if you are a nice guy who we dont think would cheat, wtf is that? Cheat IS CHEAT, nevertheless! All cheats that comes to public should get GREAT penaltys.

Pab did not make a mistake, he knowingly used cheattools inside elma, it aint fun. And Luki said everyone wants to play around with that. first off, I dont, dont see the fun in it at all, and secondly, if you wanna play around with it (which STILL IS CHEAT) its fucking obvious you do it offline and dont fuck up EOL times. If a One-year ban is set, lets keep it that way, we cant soften up.

/Fredrik!
he did not use saveload which got spread to public, he used some shit from berh to increase head weight, speed, etc., afaik.

Therefore he has even more cheat tools at his disposal v_v

Memphis: Haven't seen Bone in ages but Lee is on a bit. not this last week though.

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 11 Jul 2011, 19:05

CuLiNo wrote:he used some shit from berh to increase head weight, speed, etc., afaik.

Called elma nitro?

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 11 Jul 2011, 21:08

It sounds exactly like elma nitro but adapted for EOL. I am learning Java programming in school as we speak so once I get better, I'll give you a hand with cheat detection Mila!

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 21:19

im also learning but started this year, maybe can help someday after the shit i just did(

skint0r · Post by **skint0r** » 11 Jul 2011, 23:31

Funny how suddenly everyone blaming the real people behind what's actually keeping Elma alive for everyone. So fun for you to mess around, test limits of things then whine later if you get punishment for doing something you already knew was stupid. Wasting the time and will for the people making all this crap for you and risk them not bothering anymore, because there's always some idiots trying this shit. I know at least I got fed up with it when trying to make things for community. If you don't like the rules, go cry somewhere else or make your own online Elma and you can see how fun it is dealing with cheaters and people that think they deserve some justice just for playing a game and "being nice" to everyone. How fucking hard is it to understand it's stupid to try cheat tools with EOL? "oh lol I was just heving fun y u mad???". Fuck off and give lifetime ban to them instead so they can go ruin some other community with their sense of self-entitlement and behavior.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 11 Jul 2011, 23:45

skint0r, agree fully!

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 11 Jul 2011, 23:48

so im worse than darmoed and berh and all the known cheaters that made time for cups, internals, battles. And that fucked at all battles from belma just for some weird pleasure of being a bitch for at least half a year and getting down server for fun.

im worse than all the ppl that used cheat in eol since it started too, coz one day i got that shit and did an internal time by accident.

you dont even play online what do you care

and i didnt make this shit topic. i never tryed to get this to lauta. otherway you would never know what happend and never post that commentaries full of insults to ppl you dont know.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 11 Jul 2011, 23:55

Pab, agree fully!

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 12 Jul 2011, 00:59

Pab wrote:so im worse than darmoed and berh and all the known cheaters that made time for cups, internals, battles. And that fucked at all battles from belma just for some weird pleasure of being a bitch for at least half a year and getting down server for fun.

im worse than all the ppl that used cheat in eol since it started too, coz one day i got that shit and did an internal time by accident.

He refers to all cheaters, not jsut you.

Pab wrote:you dont even play online what do you care

He shows empathy for those who have to put up with all of this unnecessary crap. You don't have to suffer something directly to be able to feel how it is for others.

Pab wrote:and i didnt make this shit topic. i never tryed to get this to lauta. otherway you would never know what happend and never post that commentaries full of insults to ppl you dont know.

The more opinions we get on this matter, the better. Wouldn't you agree? After all, what's better than having the entire community look at this problem, instead of just a select few?

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Jul 2011, 01:20

skint0r wrote:Wasting the time and will for the people making all this crap for you and risk them not bothering anymore, because there's always some idiots trying this shit.

You couldn't write it better.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 12 Jul 2011, 01:37

Igge wrote:
Pab wrote:and i didnt make this shit topic. i never tryed to get this to lauta. otherway you would never know what happend and never post that commentaries full of insults to ppl you dont know.
The more opinions we get on this matter, the better. Wouldn't you agree? After all, what's better than having the entire community look at this problem, instead of just a select few?

What did you take out of this? go on and troll on me more.

Memphis · Post by **Memphis** » 12 Jul 2011, 06:07

milagros wrote:
skint0r wrote:Wasting the time and will for the people making all this crap for you and risk them not bothering anymore, because there's always some idiots trying this shit.
You couldn't write it better.

Haha, my english is getting worse just reading this.

nick-o-matic · Post by **nick-o-matic** » 12 Jul 2011, 07:31

skint0r wrote:Funny how suddenly everyone blaming the real people behind what's actually keeping Elma alive for everyone. So fun for you to mess around, test limits of things then whine later if you get punishment for doing something you already knew was stupid. Wasting the time and will for the people making all this crap for you and risk them not bothering anymore, because there's always some idiots trying this shit. I know at least I got fed up with it when trying to make things for community. If you don't like the rules, go cry somewhere else or make your own online Elma and you can see how fun it is dealing with cheaters and people that think they deserve some justice just for playing a game and "being nice" to everyone. How fucking hard is it to understand it's stupid to try cheat tools with EOL? "oh lol I was just heving fun y u mad???". Fuck off and give lifetime ban to them instead so they can go ruin some other community with their sense of self-entitlement and behavior.

Wise words if Pab was just a regular kuski, but you are forgetting that until this Pab has actually been one of the most time- and willspending community servers with his huge levelmaking effort and it shouldn't be underestimated. Even though cruising online with nitro was really lightheaded, sum of his doings for EOL and community is still utterly positive, so he certainly isn't ruining the community. Also imo sacrificaring him as a warning for others isn't a good idea either because all this fuss already serves as a warning.

Igge wrote:He refers to all cheaters, not jsut you.

I think it's clear that he is putting his finger on Pab even though he is using plural. This is a topic about Pab and his punishment.

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 12 Jul 2011, 08:58

it's like lewis hamilton going partying with his retarded canadian and polish friend, getting max drunk, bitchslapping ernie ecclestone and getting banned from F1, just for some _relatively harmless_ silly mistake.pab should deserve some special treatment, in a small community like this. after all, he's a pob, one of the most talented new kuskis. 1 year ban to official records - uncool. And about the "shit" mans behind EOL have to deal with, well, you should be used to retardism already.

On a second thought, what's the price of ban for kazan, grob and bjorn? I dont like their new internal times

Kiiwi · Post by **Kiiwi** » 12 Jul 2011, 10:15

I really didn't want to take part in this conversasion, since there are two competing views in here

1. rules are rules and if they're not obeyed or given "sentences" are pardoned for the "criminal" being some kind of "celebrity", it can lead to serious(ish) problems with a) moderator credibility/auctority b) ppl mongoing all the more etc. etc.
2 Elma community however is not an actual state or a country and therefore "laws" can be and probably should be applied in softer manner than in an actual society, mainly because of "population size", we all know each other pretty well and can determine pretty well the motives and sach behind stupid behavior and that's why understanding, forgiving/getting angryer and applying established rules in a flexible way to fit "the crime". eg. berh certainly deserved his eternal ban from belma (i think majority agrees), whereas if pab didn't mean to do harm and fucked up one time? Maybe there was room for giving him a little slack?

But yes...I don't know what should be done and i leave it be, i'm just bored atm and i'm killing time trying to analyze what is going on here. I think it's clear that elma is going through some "crisis" now: there's nothing new, internals are "done", new players don't intrigue anymore. Just seeing that elma documentary "internal memories" tells a lot, we're already starting to look back, ppl get frustrated and bored. That invokes problems, in this case...Sl incident. And the community is reacting heavily, on both sides, and pab screwing up THE EOL was just the last drop...and i think that is why he got sach an disproportionate punishment. What happens after we get past all this shit and things even out, no idea...Probably new ways of playing elma or just the same old.

As to pab cheating online...i dunno, but i'm sorry for him, hang in there man