Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Abula »

It's a complicated cultural thing without clear black and white answers. Nazis are labeled as 100 % evil in our western context (except in some historical and political debate) eventhough they did good things too. I think most of us agree that there should be some collective values to defend and nazi = evil is one of them.

Nazis are the closest evil group to many Elma players because Germany is the main influencer in the Northern Europe so therefore it's more an issue than other dictators which I hope are discussed more in other parts of the world where they are more relevant.

Imo it's not good to ban the symbols like they did in Germany but it's still stupid to use them no matter if it's legal or not. It's not about the flag itself but the values it carries.

Many young europeans are becoming more nationalist these days. It's true that the number of anti-nazi movies and documentaries is like 100x compared to other evil groups in the history. I think Brexit, Trump, nazi jokes etc. are signs of "enough is enough" by white men who have been blamed for about everything during the last decades. The balance between self-respect and humility is important.

Political discussion must be kept on but offending other human beings doesn't make any good.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ile »

:|
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by pawq »

iCS wrote: 26 Mar 2018, 00:22Repeating again: it's one of the most sacred symbols ever, the swastika, symbol of the structure of the timespace at a certain phase during its birth (still used in many places in the world, and it is a legal kanji in Japan, amiright kuchitsu? :D :D ), regrettably stolen by H_tler and used for his corporate identity. I don't want to defend him at all, on the contrary. Just good to know imo.
I'd argue that it doesn't matter in the slightest what the origin, or the original meaning of the symbol is. What matters is what people think of when they see the symbol. In the case of swastika, the vast majority of people on earth think of nazis, concentration camps, and mass extermination. That became the main meaning of this symbol.

It's not about being afraid to look at it. It's about using it as a joke. It's a similar lack of taste to a verbal joke involving savage slaughter of millions of people and some of the most disgusting and nightmarish ideologies the humanity has ever known. Sure, you'd find some people who'd laugh at that. But the vast majority would see it as wrong and insensitive, as insguy said. It's the same with this swastika lev. Jappe2 probably loves it, but most of us don't. Because we immediately think of the atrocities that that symbol is associated with.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by insane guy »

kuchitsu wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:50
Repeating again: it's one of the most sacred symbols ever, the swastika, symbol of the structure of the timespace at a certain phase during its birth (still used in many places in the world, and it is a legal kanji in Japan, amiright kuchitsu? :D :D ), regrettably stolen by H_tler and used for his corporate identity. I don't want to defend him at all, on the contrary. Just good to know imo.
Well, if the lev title is "Sieg Heil" (like in the lev I was complaining about) I think the origin of the symbol does not matter, right?

You have good points though that I can understand. I might also be a bit overly sensitive about the topic beause of my cultural and social background but trust me I do not wear Che Guevara shirts. I think pawq summed it up perfectly:
pawq wrote: 26 Mar 2018, 10:32 It's about using it as a joke. It's a similar lack of taste to a verbal joke involving savage slaughter of millions of people and some of the most disgusting and nightmarish ideologies the humanity has ever known. Sure, you'd find some people who'd laugh at that. But the vast majority would see it as wrong and insensitive [...]
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by iCS »

insane guy wrote: 26 Mar 2018, 11:12 Well, if the lev title is "Sieg Heil" (like in the lev I was complaining about) I think the origin of the symbol does not matter, right?
Yeah, and I don't want to defend anybody.
Wonder what's the situation in Russia. Is it tolerable to make jokes about Stalin, the GULAG or the red star symbol, kuchitsu?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Hosp »

I don't see an issue with nazi symbols like check this very popular cs.go map out: Image
and nobody seems to give a shit, I certainly don't.
about saying bad shit in chat only one i really see doing that is like ILKKA lol
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ile »

Hosp wrote: 26 Mar 2018, 13:04 I don't see an issue with nazi symbols like check this very popular cs.go map out: Image
and nobody seems to give a shit, I certainly don't.
about saying bad shit in chat only one i really see doing that is like ILKKA lol
lol if u think the shit i say is bad then idk why this topic even exists
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zweq »

i just don't understand the dire need to provoke reactions with extreme actions from other ppl (yes I think stuffing nazism in ppls face is extreme, (even if nazism has been very labeled ultra evil extremely hard by western world. I mean alliance did bomb millions of civilians to death also and soviets sank civilian cruisers and raped german civilians)). I doubt anyone puts a swastika on their wall and laughs at it and has fun with it, nope. So, the only purpose is to troll and get satisfaction out of it. Is it some weak confidence stuff? My personal trolling desires have milder limits than spamming nazism on the internet, (those limits are trying to troll nekit with somewhat harmless stupid shit). Some ppl don't troll at all, I admire them.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Orcc »

This is a case of different views on humour. Tell me one funny joke that doesn't offend anyone? There just are none except for under 10-year-olds. Be it jews, blondes, fat people, handicapped, football players, rich people, poor people, uruguayans - there's always someone to laugh and someone to be offended.

There's no right or wrong answer here. It's never a good thing to truly offend someone but on the other hand limiting humour as freedom of speech is very soviet russia.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zero »

Jokes that are based around shock value simply lack imagination.

Trying to trigger others with touchy subjects only makes the person seem like an asshole and not exactly a smart one. Surely some people will find it funny but the true essence of comedy comes from different elements completely..
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Orcc »

Like I said, people have different tastes. The first one fancies the mother while the other one prefers her daughter. And the third one likes their dead grandmother.

The point is that not all people are alike. Some assholes enjoy their black humour. Some prefer world peace and flowers and teddy bears. Some governments like to have democracy and treat everyone equally. Some dictators like to keep their whole population in the leash.

If everyone was alike the world would be a totally different place, but luckily people are different. If it was up to me I would ban uphill levels in elma scene but some people enjoy them. If it was up to someone else all the black humour would be banned, but why would you do that when some people enjoy it? There's no need to do things you don't like, just ignore and pass it.

A random swastika in the internet is not meant to offend anyone personally. It's a whole another thing with skinheads going around beating up people.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zero »

Orcc wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 09:29 Like I said, people have different tastes. The first one fancies the mother while the other one prefers her daughter. And the third one likes their dead grandmother.

The point is that not all people are alike. Some assholes enjoy their black humour. Some prefer world peace and flowers and teddy bears. Some governments like to have democracy and treat everyone equally. Some dictators like to keep their whole population in the leash.

If everyone was alike the world would be a totally different place, but luckily people are different. If it was up to me I would ban uphill levels in elma scene but some people enjoy them. If it was up to someone else all the black humour would be banned, but why would you do that when some people enjoy it? There's no need to do things you don't like, just ignore and pass it.

A random swastika in the internet is not meant to offend anyone personally. It's a whole another thing with skinheads going around beating up people.
Definitely, people do have different tastes and I do not have anything against freedom of speech as a concept. In the EOL scene however it's not exactly a matter of opinion as it's clearly stated that "2.3 Writing very offensive or insulting material" is not allowed.
Intentionally harmful jokes are very clearly breaking that rule.

It's always a bit awkward to pull out the Rules card but ultimately they do make a positive impact on the scene. I mean, people can find whatever they want funny for all I care but actions do have consequences. People who are not afraid to enter the moral grey area and braking the rules should understand that criticism and disapproval are both justified and inevitable.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by iltsu »

I actually laughed when saw that siegheil lev
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by danitah »

I do understand the humor, even if i don't find it very funny myself. The point is that it's very random and out of place. Like if you try to think of what the last thing you expect when you enter a lev, a nazi flag might be it. Of course this only works once and if you would constantly spam levs like this i don't see the humor in it at all. Anyway it was only one lev and the guy apologized so i don't see why we need another discussion about this.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by pawq »

danitah wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 11:22Anyway it was only one lev and the guy apologized so i don't see why we need another discussion about this.
We're not bashing Polarix here, this discussion mostly evolved from kuchi's questions.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by milagros »

I don't think i've ever written anything nazi related that on internet to troll people I don't find it funny, but i don't get offended either, basically i couldn't care less. But at some point i tested lgrs and i elma with hitler looks hilarious (whoever did that). It was even more hilarious, when i tested hand animation while patching, and hitler was holding his hand straight during the ride.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zweq »

There's a world of difference between saying this stuff to your friend and shoving it into people's faces publically.

The point here is context, not what tastes people have.

Retarding in public just shows bad judgement. Eol is a public place.

One friend of mine is called Stig and I've sometimes said to him "stig heil", that's oke imo, because neither of us take it seriously. But I would never post a swastika + sieg heil on any public place.

You can have your retarded jokes with your friends, just like I hav my own retarded jokes I spam to friends. Public is diff thing. That's just my imo.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Abula »

I don't think one nazi or gay level is a big problem but it's much worse if those words are tolerated in daily usage. People can test the limits but it's important to say when a limit is crossed. It's like bullying in the school. It happens and will happen but we shouldn't give up to resist it.

The nazi level could be included in the article! Elma is life.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Abula »

In general I would recommend everybody to behave online like IRL. Bo4ts are soon profiling us. Actually it might be a good id4ea to troll sometimes.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Grace »

I'd somehow missed this topic, but it was a super interesting read.

I find it a pretty valuable indicator that some of the members of the scene who I would consider as particularly mature, responsible and considerate (Kopaka, SveinR for example) were able to discuss this topic in a sophisticated manner, yet as Kopaka noticed, at least 5-10 times in this thread alone there were low effort, low humour jokes peppered throughout from some of the key perpetrators.

It makes me laugh whenever this sort of thing comes up, because inevitably the people who are actually doing it realise at some point that they are in the wrong and that it's practically a foregone conclusion that their behaviour is going to get called to task, and try and dodge it with some "LOL TROLLOLOLOLOL ur all just triggered xD" nonsense. Then sure enough, I flick to the final page and ILKKA posts just that. :D That's hilariously pathetic.

At the end of the day, my view on this issue that it is a problem, and has been for a long time. I think that the onus is on the community to help let people know that it's not okay to be casually racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Nazism doesn't fit into those categories, but in a community so heavily dominated by central and northern european players, it stands to reason that many people are bound to be uncomfortable with casually throwing around swastikas and "sieg heils". If you're not OK with this stuff, when you see it you need to call it out. Most people in this thread are well regarded within the community and have been for a long time, so if a Zweq, Pawq, Orcc or milagros was to call out poor behaviour in EOL and actually report it to moderators, it's fairly likely that an actual impact could be had. Close ended statements with actual consequences tend to be the way to go in these situations. If you see someone say something offensive casually and it makes you uncomfortable:

"Gay nigger lev"

Respond with something concrete and clear, such as "It's not appropriate to be using those terms like that in this community".
That's a pretty clear-cut response that gets your point across and doesn't invite further questions or discussion. If they continue to do it (which in my experience, they tend to do), simply report it to an EOL moderator (preferably with time stamps) and the EOL moderator MUST respond with a minor punishment (small chat ban, that kind of thing).

EOL moderators by themselves are never going to be able to tackle this, and without tangible punishments for actions, neither will the community. It has to be enforced and consistent, and a collaborative effort between the mods and the players.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by pawq »

A couple of highlights from today's fresh discussion on the topic from discord. Might be worth reading for some people; either way I think it would be good to immortalise them here.
Haruhi - Today at 11:22 wrote: Throughout these discussions I try to not be too opinionated because I feel like it's not up to just one individual to make decisions
that said, I find it exceedingly pathetic the way that some individuals in this community continue to be so stubborn about these things.
It boils down to "Don't say things that offend people".
and inevitably, ILKKA or jon or someone else will continually make excuses "oh it's vague, oh i wouldn't be offended, oh why is that even offensive".
But I thought on this, and it's very clear actually. In fact, I think it's concrete.
It's not vague because you are being told in certain terms that you are offending someone.
And that's where I think it's becoming pathetic, because after being told "this behaviour is offending members of this community", the response is not the make actions to fix it. It's not to apologise or try to cease the offensive behaviour
the immediate response is "maybe you should just turn off computer"
which is effectively "I can't be bothered changing my behaviour to make you less uncomfortable around me, so you should leave."
As far as I'm concerned, you are perfectly welcome to hold your views. You might hate gays, blacks, jews, women, whoever. That's your decision to make - it's when you start parading those views in front of people who might be offended by those views that we come to argument.
pawq - Today at 12:40 wrote: Very well said Haruhi, it actually echoes some of the things I've written:
So, I really want to go back to the point that 8-ball and ILKKA kind of made at the same time:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8-ball - Today at 12:14
i think part of the issue is that behavior like this went unchecked for years and now those singled out for it feel, well, unfairly singled out

ILKKA - Today at 12:14
oh it only matters when I say it but when redline says nobody gives a shit k nice
i mean i dont think redline should get ban but it's kinda weird u only mute certain people??
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We do not intend to single anyone out. It is pretty unfortunate that it looked like it, but what happened instead is that some people grew fed up with negativity (don't want to go into the discussion of what's offensive etc., that has already been covered). This was a combination of a few things: several people speaking out, both on lauta and on discord, and a realisation (?) that these behaviours do indeed make some people leave. As a result, a desire has grown to eliminate this negativity, and to actually, for once, try a little bit harder to make the community a pleasant and welcome place. So it happened, that around the same time ILKKA, juka and jon demonstrated a few examples of that negativity, and as part of the motion they received appropriate penalties. It was not the intention to make them scapegoats. There is no intention to focus the "modding" efforts on any particular individuals. I think never was, and definitely will never be, not as long as I'm a mod. We will do our best to make the modding consistent and impartial, so that is always fair, but still carried out with the best interests of the community in mind. As part of this, I believe we might expect a little overhaul of rules, which might also include some more informal guidelines, which should hopefully make it clear to everyone what is and what is not acceptable, or considered harmful for the community. While we are still, I believe, undecided as to whether "gay lev" etc. should be a bannable offence, we are quite clear that we want it to become less commonplace, and hopefully absent without the use of any modding powers. I believe we should start by politely pointing out that such comments, which should lead to something like this:
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<EOL_bot> (Redline): gay level
pawq - Today at 12:16
+Please refrain from such comments Redline
ircBOT - Today at 12:17
<redline> oke
pawq - Today at 12:20
+thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This goes not only for the mods, but of course it is the mods' job to reinforce this if necessary. And I will try to do it as fairly as I can, without singling out any individuals.
I hope this clears some things out.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jonsykkel »

well said
it even echoes some of my own thoughts so you know its good stuff
can i save this text to my porn folder? it makes me rock hard every time i read it
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ile »

jonsykkel wrote: 1 May 2018, 13:19 well said
it even echoes some of my own thoughts so you know its good stuff
can i save this text to my porn folder? it makes me rock hard every time i read it
Yeah man go for it! And place it right next to your NiceSpeech folder for quick access.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by AndrY »

pawq - Today at 12:40 wrote: I believe we should start by politely pointing out that such comments, which should lead to something like this:
<EOL_bot> (Redline): gay level
pawq - Today at 12:16
+Please refrain from such comments Redline
ircBOT - Today at 12:17
<redline> oke
pawq - Today at 12:20
+thanks!
lol xDD

imo not need to make elma such boring
what is bad in gay lev? imo it is compliment for lev. "!lev 0" and "bye" are worse, mb forbid them too?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by edahl »

bene wrote: 11 Dec 2017, 14:53
Kopaka wrote:So I counted five posts just in this topic that are using racial/sexist slurs to bash, with no other content what so ever. Yet people are saying there's no issue.
You and other moderators are a big part of the issue because this behavior is not moderated.
Cosigned.

I should say recent EOL mod decisions give me some hope, but even a brief look at the backlog here and I don't know what to say aside from this shit needs a major crackdown.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Kopaka »

AndrY wrote: 2 May 2018, 00:11what is bad in gay lev? imo it is compliment for lev. "!lev 0" and "bye" are worse, mb forbid them too?
What purpose does it serve to write it? There's nothing constructive in it, the designer won't be able to make a better level next time because of it, it only serves to foster a negative atmosphere. And it's not about the specific word, if you said "bad level" that wouldn't serve any purpose either.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ROKKEBOL »

Well but if I like gays may I say "gay level" in positive context?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zero »

RedLine wrote: 2 May 2018, 10:15 Well but if I like gays may I say "gay level" in positive context?
I really feel for the moderators though, it must be super annoying to get this shit against every reasonable argument :P

Don't be so difficult guys, it's not like we have strict rules around here o,o
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by edahl »

Zero wrote: 2 May 2018, 11:14 I really feel for the moderators though, it must be super annoying to get this shit against every reasonable argument :P
Having done a lot of modding myself I know how taxing it can be so I definitely feel for them. It's however not made any easier by just allowing trolling, homophobia, sexism, etc. to just go on as something to be reasoned with. Because it's not a rational, reasonable or even acceptable position to have, it's not something you can expect to "sort out" by reasoning or excusing it way. I think both this forum and the Discord needs to decide that these things are unacceptable and start taking disciplinary action. There will be some whining and some tears, but people will either adapt or take their bullshit elsewhere. EOL seems to be heading in that direction and I very much welcome it. By the end of such a process perhaps the Elma community would be a place I would be happy to invite people into.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zero »

edahl wrote: 2 May 2018, 13:23
Zero wrote: 2 May 2018, 11:14 I really feel for the moderators though, it must be super annoying to get this shit against every reasonable argument :P
Having done a lot of modding myself I know how taxing it can be so I definitely feel for them. It's however not made any easier by just allowing trolling, homophobia, sexism, etc. to just go on as something to be reasoned with. Because it's not a rational, reasonable or even acceptable position to have, it's not something you can expect to "sort out" by reasoning or excusing it way. I think both this forum and the Discord needs to decide that these things are unacceptable and start taking disciplinary action. There will be some whining and some tears, but people will either adapt or take their bullshit elsewhere. EOL seems to be heading in that direction and I very much welcome it. By the end of such a process perhaps the Elma community would be a place I would be happy to invite people into.
Can't argue with any of this. I'm all in for such a change
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zweq »

Zero wrote: 2 May 2018, 11:14
RedLine wrote: 2 May 2018, 10:15 Well but if I like gays may I say "gay level" in positive context?
I really feel for the moderators though, it must be super annoying to get this shit against every reasonable argument :P

Don't be so difficult guys, it's not like we have strict rules around here o,o
I'm just surprised kopaka is even around anymore and that we have a server running at all. Devs have been quitting one by one.
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