Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

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Ramone
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Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ramone » 5 Dec 2017, 21:40

Too much sexism and racism. Cant stand. I know many others agree. Why do we let it slip?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jonsykkel » 5 Dec 2017, 21:48

can u put sum examples of actual racism or sexism
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ramone » 5 Dec 2017, 22:31

jonsykkel wrote:can u put sum examples of actual racism or sexism
If you dont know whats racism maybe you are part of the problem?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by 8-ball » 5 Dec 2017, 23:05

Ramone wrote:
jonsykkel wrote:can u put sum examples of actual racism or sexism
If you dont know whats racism maybe you are part of the problem?
I think he means you should point out actual instances of racism where this has happened in the scene and has been tolerated.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by pawq » 5 Dec 2017, 23:14

Yeah, I can't recall anyone being racist or sexist in the scene other than through silly and obvious jokes (nigger lev :lmao:). Any serious cases?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ruben » 5 Dec 2017, 23:28

Never understood why people say "gay" or "neger" when they don't like something. I wouldn't claim it's downright racist (that would be an insult to actual racism), but it still makes you look like a bit of a twat.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by AndrY » 5 Dec 2017, 23:41

gay topic
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jonsykkel » 5 Dec 2017, 23:55

8-ball wrote:
Ramone wrote:
jonsykkel wrote:can u put sum examples of actual racism or sexism
If you dont know whats racism maybe you are part of the problem?
I think he means you should point out actual instances of racism where this has happened in the scene and has been tolerated.
yes meanted that
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 6 Dec 2017, 01:32

Ruben wrote:Never understood why people say "gay" or "neger" when they don't like something.
I think these words are funny to use when swearing because it's kinda wrong according to society. I feel like it's similar to how it was funny to fart in a public place as a kid. You're not supposed to do that, so you want to.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ile » 6 Dec 2017, 01:54

gay thread

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jblaze » 6 Dec 2017, 02:18

i dont see any real problem in that area. dont think anyone receives personal sex/racist attacks in el ma.
im not a part of any other gaming community but im pretty sure its 100 times worse in most of these.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Labs » 6 Dec 2017, 02:21

sla gay
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by danitah » 6 Dec 2017, 05:20

I feel like elma scene is generally much more friendly nowadays than it was 10-15y ago. I guess most people got more mature etc. Sure we still have a few mans like that, but it's usually not a problem for me to just ignore. It's only really a problem for me if some guy I already like a lot say stupid stuff, but that doesn't happen very often.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zweq » 6 Dec 2017, 11:04

calling ppl nab is far more offending. I mean this is elma after all, not some swedish cotton farm
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ramone » 6 Dec 2017, 11:10

Zweq wrote:calling ppl nab is far more offending. I mean this is elma after all, not some swedish cotton farm
I am not without fault. I may be one of the worse offenders. I think that needs to stop now. I would like for the scene to be an enjoyable place.

Normalizing the use of offensive words is not the way to go.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by insane guy » 6 Dec 2017, 11:15

After being in the scene so long I kinda stopped caring about whether some ppl with this attitude are just being silly or if they are racist assholes. But imagine someone new coming to eol and reading comments like "nigger lev" and no one giving a fuck. I tink this is one of the dark sides of elma that you usually don't talk about when telling everyone how awesome elma is.
I am part of the problem because I ignore it all the time. Otherwise I would have to argue so many times and doing that on the internet never helped. Also it would destroy the "general" positive mood in the scene. But I have to say I really like DCEMs approach of downright insulting people who see racist comments as "jokes". To some it might be a joke, to others not.

I remember one specific case when I wrote in IRC about some reggae singer having died and _____ wrote: "Good. another nigger bites the dust." Dunno how anyone can find that funny and I actually stopped going to IRC because it made me so mad.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 6 Dec 2017, 11:32

Was it Jappe2?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jblaze » 6 Dec 2017, 12:10

or freddie mercury?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by danitah » 6 Dec 2017, 12:34

Insguy makes a good point. In such a small community we should try to make it as welcoming and friendly as we can. I have pretty much become desensitized towards it, but I can still remember one time something was said to me a few years ago that actually hurt.

Duno what the best solution is though. I also tend to just ignore and not confront people because I assume it won't do any good anyway. Exception is if it seems like someone is being unfairly attacked.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Chris » 6 Dec 2017, 13:00

There is noone to complain to and I usually don't have mood to argue with everyone. I did argued few times in the past, but it haven't changed much if at all. That said eol community is one of the best compared to other that I used to be or I'm still part of. Also part of the problem is that Elma is such a tiny and closed community and people know each other and make some jokes that hardly anyone understand.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Lousku » 6 Dec 2017, 13:09

insane guy wrote:I remember one specific case when I wrote in IRC about some reggae singer having died and _____ wrote: "Good. another nigger bites the dust." Dunno how anyone can find that funny and I actually stopped going to IRC because it made me so mad.
Duno who said teh but this kinda stuff is often intended to mayke fun of people who would actualli say sach things sincerely. Theers a lot yokes being made, some are gona be lazy and bad.

I think this is moar just an problem of boring edgelords and bade yokes (including myneself) than actual intolerance. Theer actually is 1 clearli intolerant man on #across too, but every time it cums up, those views are either made fun of or chalenged.

I do see teh problem with intended jokes being indistinguishabel from intolerance to someone who hasn't been on the chanel for years, so I'm should trye not mayke sach.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by iltsu » 6 Dec 2017, 14:04

I like sexism and racism in elma scene

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 6 Dec 2017, 14:33

Lousku wrote:this kinda stuff is often intended to mayke fun of people who would actualli say sach things sincerely
Wohaha, that's an excellent defense. "I'm not saying this offensive stuff offensively, I'm just making fun of people who do!". I'm gonna use this.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Madness » 6 Dec 2017, 15:22

Sexism and racism here are so prevalent and severe that all women and black players were forced to leave this horrendous extremist community. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Lousku » 6 Dec 2017, 15:37

kuchitsu wrote:
Lousku wrote:this kinda stuff is often intended to mayke fun of people who would actualli say sach things sincerely
Wohaha, that's an excellent defense. "I'm not saying this offensive stuff offensively, I'm just making fun of people who do!". I'm gonna use this.
What, hev you never heard of satire until now?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by bene » 6 Dec 2017, 15:39

Lousku wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:
Lousku wrote:this kinda stuff is often intended to mayke fun of people who would actualli say sach things sincerely
Wohaha, that's an excellent defense. "I'm not saying this offensive stuff offensively, I'm just making fun of people who do!". I'm gonna use this.
What, hev you never heard of satire until now?
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 6 Dec 2017, 16:45

We just have much higher standards when it comes to satire because we grew up on excellent Russian satirical literature. In our language "satire" is rarely used to describe random chat messages, it is kinda reserved for higher art that's actually intelligent and masterful .

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by John » 6 Dec 2017, 17:14

Don't forget nazism. Always wondered how swastika avatars could be tolerated on lauta.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by analcactus » 6 Dec 2017, 19:00

imo on lauta terms of racism is ok
otherwise eol:
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by ribot » 6 Dec 2017, 19:26

I have left the scene many times because can't stand the general mentality. So I suggest everyone who has been personally attacked or offended can write #mytoo

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Hosp » 6 Dec 2017, 19:36

we are nice mans, bront
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by iCS » 6 Dec 2017, 21:19

make levs, not war!
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jonsykkel » 6 Dec 2017, 23:07

ok since u dident answer my question im gonna assume ur talking about things like this:

[17/12/05 20:49:36] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): also xira is a sexist and a racist and he doesnt even understand
[17/12/05 20:49:45] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): I think would be good to try and clear scene from alot
[17/12/05 20:49:47] <EOL_bot> (Xira): of course my trans nigger
[17/12/05 20:49:48] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): of that bs tbh
[17/12/05 20:50:10] <EOL_bot> (Xira): im mainly joking
[17/12/05 20:50:22] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): you are just uneducated.
[17/12/05 20:50:25] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): not same thing.
[17/12/05 20:50:36] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): no one apreciates you here. just go
[17/12/05 20:50:39] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): you are not wanted.
[17/12/05 20:50:46] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): grow up. learn how to behave. thanks.
[17/12/05 20:50:47] <EOL_bot> (Ramone): I go.

lets take this line as a exmaple: (Xira): of course my trans nigger
can u find any widely acepted definition of the word racism that allows u to call someone a racist for saying that?
im know theres not much agreement on what some words mean these days, but the definitions are usually something like this: "the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races"
duno how u can posibly infer that xira believes something like that based on the kind of jokes he likes to tell
maybe u mean something else when using that word, and in that case u have to explain exactly what u mean so people understant what u are talking about (at least if u are interested in actually discussing it, and not just being angry at something)

2 me it sounds as ridiculous as saying pawq is a murderer for saying this:

[17/11/01 23:24:53] <EOL_bot> (pawq): I KILL YOU IF YOU BEAT
[17/11/01 23:24:57] <EOL_bot> (pawq): I COME NAD KILL YOU

plz less murder in scene!!
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Kopaka » 6 Dec 2017, 23:26

jonsykkel wrote:lets take this line as a exmaple: (Xira): of course my trans nigger
can u find any widely acepted definition of the word racism that allows u to call someone a racist for saying that?
im know theres not much agreement on what some words mean these days, but the definitions are usually something like this: "the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races"
duno how u can posibly infer that xira believes something like that based on the kind of jokes he likes to tell
maybe u mean something else when using that word, and in that case u have to explain exactly what u mean so people understant what u are talking about (at least if u are interested in actually discussing it, and not just being angry at something)
I think often these words are used as an insult or just a placeholder for something that's bad. While this is not technically racism or sexism etc. I think it's pretty much just as bad. Even if the person that utters the words don't actually think anything bad about these groups of people, constantly using the words like that in a negative way just adds to a stigma that they're bad.

Not sure if that made sense, my point is, there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot. And by using the neutral word you don't risk hurting someone who may be reading it, and you don't risk influencing others to think those types of people are bad. Besides it's not very sophisticated.


I don't think it's a big problem in elma scene compared to other places, but we can and should still aim to improve. The better we are, the better we'll be when venturing into other communities and thus helping to improve those as well. There's a few individuals that's just out of reach, and easy way is completely banning them, but that also doesn't help them improve and we're not that big a community as it is. Then there's a bunch that uses some slurs, and I've probably done it myself. Here I think if we consider what we say a little bit we can easily improve.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by sunl » 7 Dec 2017, 00:21

I agree with the sentiment that there can be some racist or sexist comments in the chat, and instead of combatting that I too have tuned it out. The fact that I tune it out and ignore it doesn't mean I think it's acceptable however. It would be nice if people used terms that wouldn't target specific groups of people (by race, sex, or any other) and I think it would be noticed and appreciated by myself and many others :beer:

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 7 Dec 2017, 00:23

Kopaka wrote:there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot
Except these words somehow feel more colorful\expressive\interesting due to their controversial nature. Who wants to use a NEUTRAL word when they are pissed off heh?

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Kopaka » 7 Dec 2017, 00:26

kuchitsu wrote:
Kopaka wrote:there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot
Except these words somehow feel more colorful\expressive\interesting due to their controversial nature. Who wants to use a NEUTRAL word when they are pissed off heh?
I'm sure you can come up with some good word that's more interesting and doesn't target specific groups of people. Also I think maybe people should just be quiet when pissed off.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by kuchitsu » 7 Dec 2017, 00:35

I think you're right. It feels so natural, even tempting to express my negative emotions, but when I think about it it seems like that never actually makes me feel better. Learning to control this can be really difficult though.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by umiz » 7 Dec 2017, 03:49

Very good thing to discuss Ramone! I sometines try to change this sexism and racism jargon to a more friendly lingo. But mostly only a few care.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by jonsykkel » 7 Dec 2017, 06:51

Kopaka wrote:I think often these words are used as an insult or just a placeholder for something that's bad.
im think the reason people use words like nigger/gay is specifically because of the reactions they tend to produce (maby hint for how 2 make ppl stop using them), they have sum kind of magic power that more tame words like stupid/idiot/fuk dont have anymore
Kopaka wrote:While this is not technically racism or sexism etc. I think it's pretty much just as bad. Even if the person that utters the words don't actually think anything bad about these groups of people, constantly using the words like that in a negative way just adds to a stigma that they're bad.
is using the word nigger in eol chat is as bad as for egsample doing this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nching.jpg ? (not saying anyone thinks that, just trying bring sum perspective to vat u are comparing it to)
im dont think there is much stigma to being gay or blak or watever historicaly oppressed group these days, almost seems to be the oposite (imagine most ppl reaction to: gay person say "im gay and proud of it", then imagine white person say "im white and proud of it")
Kopaka wrote:Not sure if that made sense, my point is, there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot. And by using the neutral word you don't risk hurting someone who may be reading it, and you don't risk influencing others to think those types of people are bad.
in a ideal world there would be no misunderstnadings but thats nat pasible in practice, so aiming for that is a mistake i think. at least im prety sure that generating a bunch of confusion by cuntstantly insisting everything is racism/sexism etc is nat a solution to anything. that seems like it would only make the probability of misunderstandings higher
maby ppl just need to chillax litel bit
also i dont think anyone with 3 or more brain cel reads "gay lev" then think "hmm bad lev and he say gay lev - must mean gay ppl bad"
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by milagros » 7 Dec 2017, 07:03

Kopaka wrote:Not sure if that made sense, my point is, there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot.
you are so offensive here, you are associated mentally handicapped people with bad levels in elma (idiot was an official term in medicine to describe people with iq below 30)
some retarded people in the scene might get offended
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Zweq » 7 Dec 2017, 08:05

gay or nigger really doesn't stir anything in me. Maybe nigger is qyite bad in the US because of kkk. Duno why gay would be bad word for anyone, except if someone happens to be shelf gay

Nazism however... I would eternal ban jonsykkel, lousk, anpal etc ;)

It's pretty random what offenses people.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by iCS » 7 Dec 2017, 08:25

bene wrote:Russians are slow you know. They are still impressed by moving images osv.
too much russism bene plz :( :frowningbear:

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Kopaka » 7 Dec 2017, 09:34

jonsykkel wrote:
Kopaka wrote:Not sure if that made sense, my point is, there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot. And by using the neutral word you don't risk hurting someone who may be reading it, and you don't risk influencing others to think those types of people are bad.
in a ideal world there would be no misunderstnadings but thats nat pasible in practice, so aiming for that is a mistake i think. at least im prety sure that generating a bunch of confusion by cuntstantly insisting everything is racism/sexism etc is nat a solution to anything. that seems like it would only make the probability of misunderstandings higher
maby ppl just need to chillax litel bit
also i dont think anyone with 3 or more brain cel reads "gay lev" then think "hmm bad lev and he say gay lev - must mean gay ppl bad"
Oh yeah I agree on this. I really think a lot of people need to become better listeners, really try to understand where someone is coming from before reacting to what they say. Especially online where it's hard to convey tone. There's way to many cases where people (almost purposely it could seem) take something the wrong way and react way to harshly.

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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Hosp » 7 Dec 2017, 10:38

I almost never see anyone say bad things seriously.
I can go 'fuh q anp' 'your face' osv when anop around but we just jokaring, rest of people I tend to be nice to
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ramone » 7 Dec 2017, 13:22

Stop normalzing the use of some words. Dont say stuff online you wouldnt say irl.

I am into 2 things, elma and skateboarding.
Unfortunately both those communities act in ways I dont appreciate.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by Ramone » 7 Dec 2017, 19:11

And also, you allready heard a few ppl commenting on stayting out of scene due to how it is, and I know more have done the same.
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by gimp » 7 Dec 2017, 19:43

This may sound pretty American and all, but i think free speech is important, even if it is not something you want to hear or even if it is a mindless derogatory term. You can't just ban words from being said, you dont have the right. Be loving and ignore the things you don't like to hear, its mostly done for attention/reactions anyways.
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danitah
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by danitah » 7 Dec 2017, 20:13

Well yeah my philosophy has pretty much been to ignore it, because as you said it's usually done for reactions, so by ignoring people you take away their reason to continue.

I don't think it's a freedom of speech issue. Obviously if someone spams every second that's reason enough to ban them. If someone stands outside of your house yelling all day that's reason enough to call the cops if they won't stop, that's pretty much the same thing imo. Any community can set rules for how people should behave within it, that's not about free speech at all in my opinion.

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SveinR
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Re: Do we tolerate any behaviour in the scene?

Post by SveinR » 7 Dec 2017, 20:30

Kopaka wrote:I think often these words are used as an insult or just a placeholder for something that's bad. While this is not technically racism or sexism etc. I think it's pretty much just as bad. Even if the person that utters the words don't actually think anything bad about these groups of people, constantly using the words like that in a negative way just adds to a stigma that they're bad.

Not sure if that made sense, my point is, there no reason to use these words when you could just as well have used a more neutral word like bad/stupid/idiot. And by using the neutral word you don't risk hurting someone who may be reading it, and you don't risk influencing others to think those types of people are bad. Besides it's not very sophisticated.

I don't think it's a big problem in elma scene compared to other places, but we can and should still aim to improve. The better we are, the better we'll be when venturing into other communities and thus helping to improve those as well. There's a few individuals that's just out of reach, and easy way is completely banning them, but that also doesn't help them improve and we're not that big a community as it is. Then there's a bunch that uses some slurs, and I've probably done it myself. Here I think if we consider what we say a little bit we can easily improve.
I would just like to say I fully agree with everything Kopaka wrote here. Well said.
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