New EOL Features - Vote, Test and Discuss

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ribot
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New EOL Features - Vote, Test and Discuss

Post by ribot »

These are all features of EOL chat (as that is really easy to make right now)

Available features to test
!events displays a few upcoming events
!event 2020-05-17 14:00 my cool event - create a new event announcement... date and time in GMT, event name maximum 37 characters

Turning things on and off
This is for now based on a democracy AI that will do as the community wants if it is united.
!events off (stops the bot from answering to !events)
!events on (restarts the bot answering to !events)

Features I would like in EOL - Tell me what you think
!lev or !rec (registers score, and maximum one time per battle if someone has voted, display a oneliner such as)
  • lev score 7.5 (3 votes), avg 6.99 (394 votes), last10 7.4 (15 votes)
!seen kumiorava (registers when users last spoke, display a oneliner such as)
  • kumiorava 5 yrs 100 days ago
+jonsykkel hi (sends message to jonsykkel on irc from eol)






--- below is history where I was childish and embarassed myself, lied, ignored and made ridiculous arguments (about !event and !events) - although I felt it was important to make a stand - enjoy ---





THE NEW FEATURE IS
To be able to see and create upcoming events and announcements inside eol (use !events and !event in eol-chat).

The reason I made this is
Because I have been hosting some new events recently, and I felt it was hard to reach out to people. For this reason I had this idea of an organic way to reach out, without the friction of having to go to both mopolauta and discord to find something. My experience is that not the same people are active in all places, and specifically that many players on eol are not active in the chats. My solution is organic because whenever anyone is interested in what's going on everybody else will see it too.
Also, the community needs a lot of life, and anyone's inspiration is a possibility to give more life. It should be welcomed with curiosity before complaining, especially by those whose actions have an impact. It's always disappointing to come to mopolauta with so little activity, and as I noticed now it seems mods are contributing to that.

Why it matters ty try this out before deciding if it's good
I have a background in making software, advertising and creating events. All of these. Professionally. And this is something that for me seems like a good experiement for the whole community of contest creators to reach out. I'm not pretending to be God and say how it plays out, but I would like the community to be able to test it out to see how it goes.

Why it really matters to try this out
Also, this feature could be a part of okeol, and for that to be good it's always, ALWAYS, best to try a few things out in reality first. This is exactly what is being done here, and probably the only possibility to do so. New features don't grow on trees. (They are made by hard working free-workers who then get banned without being considered, being bullied and so on).
The feature in okeol will not be in chat, but the feature itself can level up as it is now, suboptimally in chat.

What I expected from the community
That everyone who is active gets a say of how this works and how it feels.

What I got out of this
pawq (who apparently doesn't host any contests, but still can be the judge what's necessary for contest creators without asking them)
@ribot if it's used often we'll simply ban it and that'll be that
- it'll need some adjustments to stay in EOL, atm it's very spammy and abusable
- ideally only eolmods should be able to add events/deadlines, and ideally it should send the list in pms, but I guess the latter not passibel? (this idea will make nobody allowed to use it.. even if you are so hungry to have power over others, this will just kill the new feature. nobody knows who are mods, and to ask them first.. what world do you live in?)
at the moment yours is already spammy (a new feature being spammy for a few days can actually create some fun for the community, i dunno what it would take for you to consider that, but without allowing this we will never know the good side of the new feature, thanks to you)
- imo it'll be either: popular and extremely spammy, or: forgotten and unused, can't see a way for it to be a genuinely useful (and used) tool without getting really spammy (thanks for saying your opinion, but what's with the exaggerated negativity... as a mod... to new-born community contributions?)
(claiming my arguments are nonsense, then retorts with: are you drunk)

Kopaka
at least should be max 1 line per event
maybe some limit to how often it can be posted, how many each can add
there are some limits like that already, but the mods didn't seem to have any curiosity of my ideas or possibilities

Direct criticism to pawq
The thing about moderators is that they should be serving the community. I feel that you just stated your opinion as you know better, without asking a single question of possibilities or what I was thinking. Your initial reactions were totally reasonable, and good as feedback. But as you said: you will ban it if it's used - you used it as reasons for banning - as first reaction. The fact that you would make that decisison without letting people try the feature out (which is the only way for creating a good feature) proves to me that you don't have what it takes to be a mod.

You did not say anything as if it were your opnion, but as you made the decision for the community. I could be wrong about it, but if you're speaking as a mod, as you did, you should make this clear. Unless you like to abuse your power over others.

To be of service means to listen and be curious, not act as if you know better about things you know nothing about. You think I haven't thought this through without even asking me, which is just plain lame. However I'm not convinced you're the right person to talk to about this, as you did lack a lot in considering other possibilities than your own opinions.

Don't flash the banning-card the first chance you get to community contributors. You should be banned for doing this.

---

For now I have outlined the basics and then I will see if it's worth putting more efforts into this.

ps. If the mods hadn't made the decision for you without asking, I could have a poll here with different options for what to do with this feature. My earlier post too could have been made better with a poll.
Last edited by ribot on 14 May 2020, 13:06, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: New EOL Feature - BANNED Before You Could Even Have an Opinion About it

Post by pawq »

Firstly, you're making things up, as the feature is neither banned nor about to be banned. After you repeatedly ignored my arguments I decided to leave and wrote "[18:03] pawq: if it's used often we'll simply ban it and that'll be that". One: "if it's used often", that is if it's used often enough to flood the chat, and two: "we". I would not make this decision without a mod consensus, so stop acting like I'd done it already.

Secondly, my main argument that you have ignored entirely both on discord and here, is that if this feature was used regularly, it would flood the chat almost unbearably. People tend to rage about periodic 1-line reminders, so having up to 10 lines of text pop up regularly is not acceptable. Besides, this should be a tool for the players, not for contest hosts. It's the players that need to know when things are happening, not the hosts. And as it is, to know what's going on you either have to be reading chat when somebody happens to use it, or use it regularly yourself, further spamming the chat. When designing something like this, the priority should be how to reach the maximum number of people with the minimum amount of spam. And this is me trying to think of the benefit of everyone, not "stating my opinion as law".

It's great that you're trying to contribute something new, but sadly the current implementation of this feature is not practical. So, as I said in discord, instead of saying things like "you don't even host contests" or "i haven't seen you in game for a long time", you could sit back, take the feedback in, and try to have a constructive discussion on how to make the feature more practical.



Edit: I now saw that you wrote something about being bullied in the scene after I left. I don't know if for whatever reason you think that I'm against you personally, maybe that would explain your reaction a bit, but let me assure you that that's not the case at all, and I don't think it ever was.
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Re: New EOL Feature - BANNED Before You Could Even Have an Opinion About it

Post by ribot »

pawq wrote: 11 May 2020, 20:09 Firstly, you're lying, as the feature is neither banned nor about to be banned. After you repeatedly ignored my arguments I decided to leave and wrote "[18:03] pawq: if it's used often we'll simply ban it and that'll be that". One: "if it's used often", that is if it's used often enough to flood the chat, and two: "we". I would not make this decision without a mod consensus, so stop acting like I'd done it already.

Secondly, my main argument that you have ignored entirely both on discord and here, is that if this feature was used regularly, it would flood the chat almost unbearably. People tend to rage about periodic 1-line reminders, so having up to 10 lines of text pop up regularly is not acceptable. Besides, this should be a tool for the players, not for contest hosts. It's the players that need to know when things are happening, not the hosts. And as it is, to know what's going on you either have to be reading chat when somebody happens to use it, or use it regularly yourself, further spamming the chat. When designing something like this, the priority should be how to reach the maximum number of people with the minimum amount of spam. And this is me trying to think of the benefit of everyone, not "stating my opinion as law".

It's great that you're trying to contribute something new, but sadly the current implementation of this feature is not practical. So, as I said in discord, instead of saying things like "you don't even host contests" or "i haven't seen you in game for a long time", you could sit back, take the feedback in, and try to have a constructive discussion on how to make the feature more practical.
The feature could be banned before the majority of users are seeing this. Since you said it will probably be banned it's not a lie but a prediction based on your reasoning.

You could have said before that a mod consensus is required, but it doesn't really matter. For me the community matters, as you have clearly illustrated how mods act and think.

I didn't ignore your argument about flooding. I answered that early on:
ribot:
until it actually bothers ppl it's not spammy
Arzenik:
it has all the tendence to become spammy at one point or another, imho
ribot:
ye tell me about it when that point has come, and then you can ban it from irc

The tool is for players and contest hosts. It's sad that you are explicitly excluding contest hosts. Also, glad to know your opinion is not the law. It could have been said when stating you are a mod.

About being practical: I base that on practical experience, not in my imagination of things. It does matter, in practice, for players, how events and announcements are reached out. And this feature does have a practical value. Perhaps it is too spammy as you say, but I will not agree until that is proven to be the opinon of the community as a whole. And at that point, when the community has felt not only the spamminess (which is of course not the only factor that should be considered), but also the possible benefits of the tool. Then I can form an opinion of how it works in practice.
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Re: New EOL Feature - BANNED Before You Could Even Have an Opinion About it

Post by pawq »

ribot wrote: 11 May 2020, 20:26The feature could be banned before the majority of users are seeing this. Since you said it will probably be banned it's not a lie but a prediction based on your reasoning.
I said "if", not "definitely" or even "probably". You said it was banned in the past tense, so yeah, it was a lie.
ribot wrote: 11 May 2020, 20:26Also, glad to know your opinion is not the law. It could have been said when stating you are a mod.
[18:00] ribot: well if i'm gonna bother to explain for you, are you even a mod
[18:01] pawq: yes, i am eolmod

I answered your question. I didn't feel the need to bring up moderating in the discussion, you did.



edit: additional ideas to make your current implementation of the feature more practical:
- investigate if maybe there is some way for a bot to send PMs in eol chat; this would be ideal because it would solve the spam issue completely
- apart from allowing only 1 line per event, limit what's displayed to 2-3 lines (2-3 nearest events), as some 3 lines are much more manageable/tolerable than 8 or more
- delete abusive additions as soon as you become aware of them
- perhaps limit its usage to once per hour or something, but not sure if it's a great idea, because if it didn't respond at all then people would think it's broken, but if it was to respond with a one-liner of "used too frequently" or sth, then might as well just post the 2-3 lines with nearest events...
- a pretty far-fetched idea: make it a standalone .exe that could be started with EOL automatically (or always run in the background or sth) that would display an F6-type list on top of Elma upon some keypress? Or maybe something similar could be implementable via steam workshop? Basically try to think of some way to only display the info to the requester instead of to everyone
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Re: New EOL Feature - BANNED Before You Could Even Have an Opinion About it

Post by ribot »

pawq wrote: 11 May 2020, 21:07 edit: additional ideas to make your current implementation of the feature more practical:
- investigate if maybe there is some way for a bot to send PMs in eol chat; this would be ideal because it would solve the spam issue completely
- apart from allowing only 1 line per event, limit what's displayed to 2-3 lines (2-3 nearest events), as some 3 lines are much more manageable/tolerable than 8 or more
- delete abusive additions as soon as you become aware of them
- perhaps limit its usage to once per hour or something, but not sure if it's a great idea, because if it didn't respond at all then people would think it's broken, but if it was to respond with a one-liner of "used too frequently" or sth, then might as well just post the 2-3 lines with nearest events...
- a pretty far-fetched idea: make it a standalone .exe that could be started with EOL automatically (or always run in the background or sth) that would display an F6-type list on top of Elma upon some keypress? Or maybe something similar could be implementable via steam workshop? Basically try to think of some way to only display the info to the requester instead of to everyone
If there is some way to make the send pm:s in chat it could be implemented on the server. On my end it's very easy to do.

Only displaying nearest events was already imlemented since way back. Hope you didn't assume otherwise.

Not sure what is abusive, but I did ban you as soon as I got aware of your abuse. I solve problems organically rather than deciding exactly what to do beforehand. So if you feel that need to control the situation it's easy to do on your end. Though I would suggest you inform me as soon as you ban the feature so the problem can be fixed.

I was thinking about schedules posts but it's hard if even possible to know a good time to do it. Also considered a time limit and it might work. I think a one-liner would be better to post an event rather than an error message. Error messages are already ignored except when posting correct format but a date that is not allowed.
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Re: New EOL Features - Vote, Test and Discuss

Post by Grace »

move on.
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