Internal times update schedule

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Kopaka
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Internal times update schedule

Post by Kopaka » 28 May 2020, 22:34

With various talks going on about how to store and present internal times, one point I'd like to discuss is the update schedule. Currently internal times are updated weekly on EOL, WRs are updated whenever wr table is updated manually (once a month-ish), pawq's tt list is updated monthly-ish, eolstats whenever people bother to upload their stats.

So, if we ignore all practical and technical aspects, what would be your preferred update schedule for internal times?

PRs: weekly, instant, on demand, something else?
WRs: when wr table is updated, weekly, instant, something else?

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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by ArZeNiK » 28 May 2020, 23:29

PRs: i prefer instantly, but any of the options are fine tbh
WRs: ABSOLUTELY NOT instantly, unless 100% efficient antixiit implemented (its super easy atm to get a time before getting kicked/banned, speaking from my filthy cheater experience).
if it's cool with both EOLmans and px to split from legacy and go our own way, weekly would be great. otherwise right after px table.
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Labs » 29 May 2020, 02:11

PRs: instant
WRs: when wr table is updated while we are still in px system
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by skint0r » 29 May 2020, 06:38

Dunno why Elma still lives in year 2000, make instant and put public WR recs. What does some xiited time matter, it's removed and it is no problem anymore because you don't use old retarded table system anyway so it is not going to be visible anywhere
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Zweq » 29 May 2020, 06:59

my 2020 vote goes for: everything instant for internals. Moposite crew can keep on updating tables every now and then if want.

I just find it annoying nowadays, and I bet it would be a huge relief to developers involved to get rid of those old systems.
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by iltsu » 29 May 2020, 08:53

I vote instant

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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by milagros » 29 May 2020, 09:39

my 2010 vote goes for instant updates
my 2020 vote goes to who cares, 3 wrs a year anyway
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Abula » 29 May 2020, 10:54

One problem with instant WRs is that old WR statistics wouldn't be comparable anymore. One solution would be making new statistics based on days not tables and leave old stats as they are. Many stats would be quite different, some in good way, some in bad way. Let's take a quick look at the current ones (https://moposite.com/records_wr_statistics.php):

* WR Development: based on days would be more interesting than now based on tables (+)
* WR Total Time development: maybe make the snapshots in monthly basis? (+/-)
* WR Ages: based on days - this wouldn't work anymore because the last WR owners would eventually win this after enough time passes (-)
* WR Owners: same problem here if we use monthly snapshots (-)
* Most WRs: I guess this stats wouldn't change much which is great because I think this is one the most interesting one! (+/-)
* Most Tables With WRs: most months with WRs? Again the last WR holders would eventually win (-)
* Most Different WRs: same as with Most WRs so would probably work quite same which is nice (+/-)
* Improvements (4x different): no effect (+/-)

So from the statistics point of view: 3x minus, 1x plus and many neutral so eventhough it would be a bit worse (?) it's not that bad?

Maybe this conversion table = month would add also some new fun because the last/first day of the month is when a "statistics snapshot" is done so after that they could be post-analysed when now it's quite random and matter of px and other mans if no one makes new WRs. I mean someone (if wanted) could update somewhere "ok after January 2041 Zweq finally passes Abula in the number of WRs" even when no one is playing anymore. But I want to underline again that some stats would get quite boring after no one is playing anymore unless we add some extra rules.

Maybe it's possible to add a small correction to the pattern that the monthyl snapshot is taken only if there is at least 1 new WR? Maybe that would add some fairness between old veterans and last warriors and still keep the logic simple enough?

So if this idea is good then we have another question: should the new rules start from 2020 beginning (or whenever possible) or from year 2000 so the stats are re-generated? I think (but not suggest it) that we could even continue with the table numbers from where we are now, accept WRs instantaly but increment the table number only in the first second of the month (if there are new WRs). This decission could be done after we see how the statistics would look in the monthly based "tables".

Let's take a quick look also what are the pros and cons to not regenerate old stats:

Pros:

- fair to old veterans

Cons:

- not so simple (there would be an arbitrary date when the logic changes)
- the new system needs more logic to program

But I think the fairness to old veterans could be analysis if it's too bad or/and we could always have both because probably Moposite will have those old stats anyway and the new system could have the new stats. And from the historical point of view I don't need to fix my article (the most important aspect! :D) but just add new stats when it's good time for that and add some extra analysis like "zyntifox lost his new WR in 6 tables in a row but now we know that ..."

So maybe it's a good idea to have the new stats based on active months and leave old stats as they are if the new stats are somewhat fair to old veterans. I understand this would probably mean Moposite is not hosting the official WR table then anymore but maybe it's time to handle the torch to next? (or how to say it in English) I'm sure Moposite can still contribute Elma in some other ways
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Abula » 29 May 2020, 10:59

And maybe to decrease confustion we could use the term "snapshot" (or some better?) instead of tables so we would always know which ones we are talking about. I wouldn't want to forget the statistics made in old logic like zynti's 6 WRs in a row etc and this would get confusing and eventually forgotten if we are going to have"old table statistics" and "table statistics"
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by 8-ball » 29 May 2020, 12:03

instant all
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Kopaka » 29 May 2020, 13:01

ArZeNiK wrote:
28 May 2020, 23:29
(its super easy atm to get a time before getting kicked/banned, speaking from my filthy cheater experience)
It's happened like a couple of times in eol history that best time in an int was cheated/bugged, and it was very obvious most of them, so I don't think it's a big issue.
Zweq wrote:
29 May 2020, 06:59
and I bet it would be a huge relief to developers involved to get rid of those old systems.
Exactly.
Abula wrote:
29 May 2020, 10:54
I think (but not suggest it) that we could even continue with the table numbers from where we are now, accept WRs instantaly but increment the table number only in the first second of the month (if there are new WRs).
I was thinking, even if we update instantly, there would still be some "WR update" happening once a month, for a couple reasons. Someone should still check the recs for verification, they could still make a news post so people who don't watch the stats every day will know new WRs are made, and then you have the option to still have table numbers for the sake of stats. This update could still happen on old wr tables on moposite and the news there if wanted.

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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Tm » 29 May 2020, 13:26

my stance is instant
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by abruzzi » 30 May 2020, 22:26

ez weekly ) more tension
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Grace » 31 May 2020, 03:27

I don't mind it being weekly wrs rather than instant, gives some chance to investigate any big new times for verify.

Otherwise I think delay unnecessary.
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by gimp » 7 Jun 2020, 21:02

The wr table is sacred. I do not like instant, i think WRs need verification, and i think table# is important for statistics too. I think "weekly" is good, but no need to make new wr table if there are no new wrs. So within one week of a wr submission would work imo.

whatever makes sense to those that do the work is probably the more important input though.
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by kuchitsu » 8 Jun 2020, 09:02

Yea, imagine having instant updates with no verification and getting super excited about some crazy record only to see it disappear the next day because it turned out buggy.

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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Zweq » 8 Jun 2020, 09:55

imagine times being instant only in eol and on elma online site and moposite mans continue to update wr table normally
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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by Kopaka » 8 Jun 2020, 20:50

EOL has been updated now to show times instantly. I felt there was enough support for this. I realise some people still preferred delayed updates, especially for WR's, and I'm not just ignoring those, but there's some technical challenges around this, such as non WR's would never be completely instant if we have to delay WR's, and even with the system we had there were some issues. All in all pros are bigger than cons. I fast tracked it a bit since the current update script broke (9 year old php code) so times have not been updated for a few weeks, and I didn't want to rewrite it if it wasn't needed.
kuchitsu wrote:
8 Jun 2020, 09:02
Yea, imagine having instant updates with no verification and getting super excited about some crazy record only to see it disappear the next day because it turned out buggy.
The number of times a cheated/bugged time has appeared in eol in an int that was WR and not very obviously a bug/cheat is almost non existant, so I don't see this as an issue.

How it works exactly is like this: All times in EOL in-game and on elma.online is updated instantly the moment you drive the time. WR's are still verified and updated to moposite wr table ~monthly. This also applies to other levelpacks with weekly updates such as EOL pack and Twenty.

elma.online has been updated to show things like total times, personal times and highligt of new times on levelpacks. Note that elmaonline.net is not updated to reflect this change, in fact you should now use elma.online for all things statistics and times.

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Re: Internal times update schedule

Post by ofta » 15 Jun 2020, 12:49

only on christmas eve, things are more exciting when you have to wait for them

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