Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 20:09 (...)
I dont care what is your trust about my times, its not about that. I say that if pops (which are bugs of physics) are normal to people to use it on their advantage, then these scripts also normal. People using low fps to get better time on small höyl levs, people using pops to get better time, people using buggy bnc's to get better time on levs, people using vsync bugs to get better times on levs, people changing fps with different methods while playing a lev, to get better times. These are all normal for people to get advantage over others, but timing a brake is not, dont you see it ironical (and the most hard against the brake timing is danitah, who uses the most pop bugs on his advantage, interesting...)? Anyway, the int12 code is there to show, how long it is possible to go with script, which is not 5 secs as you think. All of these things makes the wr table a joke.
This is a horrible argument.

A parallel: changing FPS/VSync is like using a different golf club, a script playing out 2.5s of a level for you is like having somebody hit your drive for you.

pawq (I think) has pointed out it's highly surprising you don't see it this way, and I do have to wonder if you're purposefully missing the point to prove another point? If so, what is it exactly? Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society, in general, sees as cheating.
pawq wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 00:30
Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 00:22(...)
Because wheelpops can be achieved by legitimate finger movements on the keyboard, just like any other kind of legitimate gameplay.

(...)
Most of what you've said is reasonable as far as I can tell, but this is a not a solid argument. Bug bounces can be achieved by legitimate finger movements on the keyboard and they are not legitimate gameplay.

This leads into the fact that some things are objectively cheating (SL or somebody else submitting recs under your name etc.) and some things are subjectively cheating (bug bounces) and are just ingrained in the community's common understanding of the rules.

The community made a choice (probably not democratically, but the powers that be chose) that wheel pops are legal, and there will of course be people who are against that to this day. Nobody is definitely wrong, it's a matter of opinion. It's a shame elma didn't have different categories for WR tables long ago, so this stuff wouldn't be as difficult for people.

Any% - anything goes except cheating
No Glitch% - no bug bounces or wheel pops or phasing thru walls etc.
TAS% - any cheating allowed
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 03:43 Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society, in general, sees as cheating.
Im sorry for you that you can only see things black and white. I must be an antisocial geek and hardcore cheater of every game if i dont share the opinion of you.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:40
tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 03:43 Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society, in general, sees as cheating.
Im sorry for you that you can only see things black and white. I must be an antisocial geek and hardcore cheater of every game if i dont share the opinion of you.
What?! Did you even read my posts? I spent quite a while discussing just how much of a grey area this all is.

I never said any of that stuff about you.

If you don't want to address the actual issue in the conversation, that's fine, but don't pretend I'm seeing things in black and white nor that I've said you're an antisocial geek or a hardcore cheater.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:55
Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:40
tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 03:43 Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society, in general, sees as cheating.
Im sorry for you that you can only see things black and white. I must be an antisocial geek and hardcore cheater of every game if i dont share the opinion of you.
What?! Did you even read my posts? I spent quite a while discussing just how much of a grey area this all is.

I never said any of that stuff about you.

If you don't want to address the actual issue in the conversation, that's fine, but don't pretend I'm seeing things in black and white nor that I've said you're an antisocial geek or a hardcore cheater.
"Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society"

It seems like so for me, but oke.

There is no way to make a point "where is a script is cheat or not". It is or it is not. Like you can make a script for double space, also for braking x amount, then can go for a + right volt or smth, where is the line? Its impossible to tell what's the line "which should never be crossed" or is counted as a cheat. Some guys may see it normal to use long scripts, some says dont use at all in any case, some says using it in special places is normal. Who has the truth?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:59 (...)

"Because you just seem extremely out of touch with that society"

It seems like so for me, but oke.
I said you seem out of touch with what society sees as cheating, a very specific thing, not out of touch with society as a whole. The meaning behind those two statements differs completely. I obviously intended to say you do not understand what society views as "cheating" when the concept is applied broadly to different things.

But, to be honest, I think you know exactly what people think cheating is, and you're being disingenuous to prove some kind of point instead of just saying what you mean outright.

And to say that "Because you just seem extremely out of touch..." is somehow equivalent to me calling you an "antisocial geek" and "hardcore cheate" is simply dishonest.

This discussion is no longer civil, because you have derailed it, so I'm no longer interested in talking to you.

EDIT: See my next post, since you edited yours as I was posting.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:59 (...)

There is no way to make a point "where is a script is cheat or not". It is or it is not. Like you can make a script for double space, also for braking x amount, then can go for a + right volt or smth, where is the line? Its impossible to tell what's the line "which should never be crossed" or is counted as a cheat. Some guys may see it normal to use long scripts, some says dont use at all in any case, some says using it in special places is normal. Who has the truth?
There is absolutely a way to make that point, and people have done so already in this discussion. One action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing one action (e.g. quick brake) is obviously a finite boundary, whereas one action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing multiple actions is boundless.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 06:21
Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:59 (...)

There is no way to make a point "where is a script is cheat or not". It is or it is not. Like you can make a script for double space, also for braking x amount, then can go for a + right volt or smth, where is the line? Its impossible to tell what's the line "which should never be crossed" or is counted as a cheat. Some guys may see it normal to use long scripts, some says dont use at all in any case, some says using it in special places is normal. Who has the truth?
There is absolutely a way to make that point, and people have done so already in this discussion. One action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing one action (e.g. quick brake) is obviously a finite boundary, whereas one action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing multiple actions is boundless.
Is not one action but 2, pressing brake and says for how long time, normal game doesnt have such thing. This also says that bene script is cheating because he added turn to it, which is now braking for x time and turn.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ArZeNiK »

my little story with autoplay:
in some july 2020 i was toying around with some arbitrary macro recorder for reasons i cant remember (not elma related). then i realised how versatile it was so even a noob such as myself could easily script the start of a run or maybe even whole. i decided to test it out with the first ~5 seconds of hiflyer style, which seemed to work with little error, but i later dropped the idea of ever getting to finish because it seemed too tedious. later i started to feel shit about myself because i might have just tainted my prestige forever if i got adicted to this tool or somehow started a trend, so i decided to tell kopaka everything. he told me autoplay was undetectable as a whole but he seemed generally unmoved by this whole issue, which concerned me at the time but then i did some talking to tej who made me want to kms a bit less (thanks in retrospect).
regardless of labs being in the right or not, i think it's a dick move of him to share a moveset like this and then to say that everyone else is in the wrong because we dont think that its equivalent with literally pressing and releasing a button. talk about taking things out of proportion
cant add anything else valuable to the discussion currently, might try later
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by bene »

I think piping is a bug and the devils gameplay and should be banned for using because I don't like piping.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by kuchitsu »

Maybe Labs is trying to say that all bounces, vsync tricks, etc are basically ways to "exploit the system" that the game technically allows, and Orcc's script falls into the same category. Therefore they are equal from a certain point of view and should either be all allowed or all forbidden. Because otherwise you have to draw a line somewhere and there's no definite "scientific" way to determine where it should be drawn. It does sound ridiculous since he pushes the argument to extremes with his complex int12 script, however I guess if you really squint your eyes it's somewhat reminiscent of e.g. playing YouTube videos in Firefox to get certain game behavior (also outside assistance of another program). So in Labs' point of view the game itself is flawed and needs to be fixed so that the limits of what is acceptable are determined by an objective engine rather than subjective humans. I think that's what he means.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 06:30
tej wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 06:21
Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 05:59 (...)

There is no way to make a point "where is a script is cheat or not". It is or it is not. Like you can make a script for double space, also for braking x amount, then can go for a + right volt or smth, where is the line? Its impossible to tell what's the line "which should never be crossed" or is counted as a cheat. Some guys may see it normal to use long scripts, some says dont use at all in any case, some says using it in special places is normal. Who has the truth?
There is absolutely a way to make that point, and people have done so already in this discussion. One action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing one action (e.g. quick brake) is obviously a finite boundary, whereas one action (e.g. hitting 'e') performing multiple actions is boundless.
Is not one action but 2, pressing brake and says for how long time, normal game doesnt have such thing. This also says that bene script is cheating because he added turn to it, which is now braking for x time and turn.
Yeah, i think that should be considered cheating. But obviously what you have been doing/sharing is many times worse.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

People need to take some deep breaths now. It's getting a bit comic how the discussion reminds what it was with alovolt patch and with saveload. We've been there before and now we still need to go through the same things again? Someone talks about quitting, someone is instantly blamed for cheating, someone says that playing Elma doesn't require skills anymore. These things are based on heavy assumptions without knowing what really is possible and what isn't.

Now is the time to do some experiments. Labs is on the correct path of finding out what actually can be done with the scripting. Is it possible to write down internal wr runs? Does things get too random after one second? Can you script short inhuman movement sequences and get advantage in live runs?

There are things that we probably all can agree on, such as we don't want someone to post 13,70 Warm Up script so that the next day everyone has that time in Warm Up. The debate whether the person can spend excess hours figuring those moves out so that he can drive the time for himself can already be more challenging. You still need to have damn detailed knowledge about any lev to be able to turn the runs into written down keypresses.

I hope the future is somewhere there in between. Like saveload: some people have more skills and patience with it and can provide nice replays both for the community and their personal good. I think writing down the moves with 1 ms accuracy will help understanding how to achieve the best possible times even if you will still have to drive it yourself. Like saveload.

I think one of the biggest problems at the moment is the same as it was with saveload release: we cannot detect whether someone is using it or not. I'm not sure if this can be easily solved but it remains to be seen. Still what I would like to see now is what are all the possibilities that we have.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

kuchitsu wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:10 Maybe Labs is trying to say that all bounces, vsync tricks, etc are basically ways to "exploit the system" that the game technically allows, and Orcc's script falls into the same category. Therefore they are equal from a certain point of view and should either be all allowed or all forbidden. Because otherwise you have to draw a line somewhere and there's no definite "scientific" way to determine where it should be drawn. It does sound ridiculous since he pushes the argument to extremes with his complex int12 script, however I guess if you really squint your eyes it's somewhat reminiscent of e.g. playing YouTube videos in Firefox to get certain game behavior (also outside assistance of another program). So in Labs' point of view the game itself is flawed and needs to be fixed so that the limits of what is acceptable are determined by an objective engine rather than subjective humans. I think that's what he means.
I'll repeat, one is exploiting existing gameplay physics, the other is automating gameplay.

There may not be a clear boundary between legitimate/acceptable and illegitimate/unacceptable exploits (see bugbounces), but there's a clear-as-day boundary between any exploits of physics, and automating gameplay.

Alovolt is probably the first stage of gameplay automation, but it's embedded in the game's controls so its legitimacy is unquestionable. It does not involve using external scripts to control the game, it's just one of the internal controls.

Two simultaneous or near-instantaneous actions, such as brake+turn or break+release bound to one key, is the second stage, and something completely different to any sort of physics bugs, because it involves using external tools to control/aid the gameplay. Strictly speaking, it's TAS. We (or rather them - the admins) may decide that it's allowed, but it's objectively not the same thing as physics exploits, and should not be treated the same way.

More advanced or longer scripts are basically just an extension of the above. They are very clearly about gameplay automation, and again, theoretically the admins could decide that it's allowed, but basically at that point we'd turn Elma into a programming competition.



Perhaps only modifying the environment, such as playing a youtube video in the background, could be considered a grey area. I guess technically it could be argued that it's also TAS (using external tools to aid gameplay). However, given that, perhaps uniquely for this game, the effect of PC hardware, OS and software on the physics is significant but not well-understood, outlawing modifying the computing environment is unfeasible, because it would involve banning arbitrary elements of hardware or software that people may use regardless of Elma, also without really understanding their impact. However, AHK/macros do not fall within this category, because they are about directly controlling gameplay with a set of explicit instructions.

edit:
I agree with most of what Orcc said in the last post, reliable detection is definitely paramount.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ArZeNiK »

bene wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 08:02 I think piping is a bug and the devils gameplay and should be banned for using because I don't like piping.
agreed
Orcc wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:26 Now is the time to do some experiments. Labs is on the correct path of finding out what actually can be done with the scripting. Is it possible to write down internal wr runs? Does things get too random after one second? Can you script short inhuman movement sequences and get advantage in live runs?

There are things that we probably all can agree on, such as we don't want someone to post 13,70 Warm Up script so that the next day everyone has that time in Warm Up. The debate whether the person can spend excess hours figuring those moves out so that he can drive the time for himself can already be more challenging. You still need to have damn detailed knowledge about any lev to be able to turn the runs into written down keypresses.
i dont think wr runs are doable, but e.g. legendary times are likely, most styles around that region have a relatively small but still visibly existent room for error. but hey maybe even brutals arent possible for all i know
as for damn detailed knowledge, i dont remember having much trouble with identifying when a key was pressed (rec sounds and animations help)
pawq wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:36 Perhaps only modifying the environment, such as playing a youtube video in the background, could be considered a grey area. I guess technically it could be argued that it's also TAS (using external tools to aid gameplay). However, given that, perhaps uniquely for this game, the effect of PC hardware, OS and software on the physics is significant but not well-understood, outlawing modifying the computing environment is unfeasible, because it would involve banning arbitrary elements of hardware or software that people may use regardless of Elma, also without really understanding their impact.
this is really undefinable. what can you even consider a "default" environment for elma running? killing everything on taskbar? killing everything in task manager? in my eyes this ambiguity makes every discussion regarding external software pointless, because its almost impossible to not run any external software no matter how much you want to.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

ArZeNiK wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:57this is really undefinable. what can you even consider a "default" environment for elma running? killing everything on taskbar? killing everything in task manager? in my eyes this ambiguity makes every discussion regarding external software pointless, because its almost impossible to not run any external software no matter how much you want to.
Yes, that was my point, and that's why I don't even consider that an option. But ahk is different in that it controls gameplay with specific instructions with a specific and direct goal, so it's not ambiguous.


ArZeNiK wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:57but hey maybe even brutals arent possible for all i know
This is an important point. We've been barely discussing this for a few days, a few people experimenting here and there. Then extrapolate that through months or years of effort in optimising not just the timings, but the tools as well. That's the scary part.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Igge »

ArZeNiK wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:57i dont think wr runs are doable, but e.g. legendary times are likely, most styles around that region have a relatively small but still visibly existent room for error. but hey maybe even brutals arent possible for all i know
as for damn detailed knowledge, i dont remember having much trouble with identifying when a key was pressed (rec sounds and animations help)
Nab question from computer nab:
Could you theoretically de-compile a wr replay to get all inputs at different timeframes, and then use that data to build a script? Maybe tweak some timings if different FPS or so, but at least be near a near wr run?

I have no idea how recs are coded so maybe this is completely off, and I guess this technically is a bit off-topic, but thread is already all over the place anyway.. 8)
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ArZeNiK »

Igge wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 14:58 Nab question from computer nab:
Could you theoretically de-compile a wr replay to get all inputs at different timeframes, and then use that data to build a script? Maybe tweak some timings if different FPS or so, but at least be near a near wr run?

I have no idea how recs are coded so maybe this is completely off, and I guess this technically is a bit off-topic, but thread is already all over the place anyway.. 8)
pretty sure there's already a program for that but not too widespread for obvious reasons
and also you could just get a keylogger and run it during one of your sl sessions then pick the correct inputs from the log
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ArZeNiK »

pawq wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 14:56 This is an important point. We've been barely discussing this for a few days, a few people experimenting here and there. Then extrapolate that through months or years of effort in optimising not just the timings, but the tools as well. That's the scary part.
for me scripting the first 8 seconds of hi flyer took probably a few hours at most with some bullshit unresponsive ui. i can see even longest internal runs being scripted in max 1-2 weeks with proper tools and knowledge

im 99% sure there are people who have been already using such tool before wheelpop discussion came up
but what ever can you do? check for similarities between consecutive runs? accusing people out of the blue is bullshit
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

Igge wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 14:58 Could you theoretically de-compile a wr replay to get all inputs at different timeframes, and then use that data to build a script?
replays only have volt and turn events
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Ruben »

I feel like regardless of what should or shouldn't be allowed, all allowed things should at least be part of the actual game. If braketap button is allowed, it should be integrated into the game. Allowing external scripting just feels megabad and cheaty in every way.

Just imagine if everyone had to use external programs these days to do alovolt and it somehow being legitimate, would be real shit honestly.

SL is not "legitimate" in the sense that it's not allowed in live runs in EOL, even though it has been accepted by the community as a legitimate tool for practice and theoretical runs. Any scripting should be treated the same way, regardless of how many actions are done or how long it lasts. Until now I thought this was understood, but apparently some members of the community thought otherwise for some reason I can't fathom.

TL;DR: Braketap must either be included in the game itself, or it must be relegated to the TAS section.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Kopaka »

Orcc wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 13:26People need to take some deep breaths now. It's getting a bit comic how the discussion reminds what it was with alovolt patch and with saveload. We've been there before and now we still need to go through the same things again?
I think the freak out is because this is easily extended. Say your script is considered okay, what if next wcup event I find that a slightly longer tab break is helpful, can I do that as long as I publish the .ahk file after the event? What about a double break tab, or break and volt script etc. I'm not saying I'm against a wheelpop button, but this can so much easier get out of hand.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by milagros »

.dat files in my sl contain a script to reproduce the run
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Grace »

Hehehe it's funny to see this topic devolve into exactly what we could have all suspected. It's almost like a prophecy.

Most games have a rule with unofficial macros to remove or at least reduce the subjective factor of whether they are cheating or not. That rule is:

Code: Select all

One input -> One output

Any additional aspects are not allowed
In this case, there is the extra component of the duration of the keypress being altered, which would constitute cheating. It's very, VERY minor cheating, but most game communities would perceive this as a cheat.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

and how exactly does alobutton fit in those limits?

alo is one keypress that sends out two events (x keydown, y keydown) and this script sends out two events (x keydown, x keyup) with some delay in-between, the delay seems to be the only difference and problem in this case?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 08:26 and how exactly does alobutton fit in those limits?
It's in the game
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Igge »

specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 08:26 and how exactly does alobutton fit in those limits?

alo is one keypress that sends out two events (x keydown, y keydown) and this script sends out two events (x keydown, x keyup) with some delay in-between, the delay seems to be the only difference and problem in this case?
The difference is one has been accepted and implemented, and readily avaliable to all (alo). The other one hasn't.

Not until after the last Wcup event was the break script released - red flag one
It's still not readily available to all - you have to have been reading this topic or be informed some other way. If you just play on your own you won't have this tool - red flag two.
And it's still not generally accepted as far as I can tell - red flag three.

Maybe it eventually will be available and accepted, but at the moment i would consider it neither.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

maybe it was not obvious but i was comparing this situation to the time when alopatch was not implemented in the game
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Igge »

specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 09:25 maybe it was not obvious but i was comparing this situation to the time when alopatch was not implemented in the game
Yeah, and if a wide majority people accept that this script also is fine and should be implemented, or even if a majority accept and want fully scripted WR-runs to be allowed, then I guess they will be as well.

But at the moment they are not. That is the difference. There is no consensus on this external tool being used, and therefore imo it should be disallowed until the matter has been solved.
Last edited by Igge on 10 Dec 2020, 11:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

About the original wheelpop script people seem to keep ignoring that it's not very accurate. Here is a screenshot from Monday of what pskript could do manually:
Image

Here's a comparison of what I could do with the script set to 12ms:
Image

It is clear that with a combination of skilled fingers and a good keyboard you can easily beat the script in accuracy. I gave the script to AIVO mans during WCup811 and after testing none of them used it because they didn't find it helpful. Yet again on this topic people keep complaining how unfair it is. How about doing some personal testing first? The script is like providing eyeglasses to people who can't see so that they could get a little help, but the people with perfect vision say "FUCK YOU, I don't need glasses so you shouldn't be allowed to use them either".

The reason I released this after the event and not during it was that I didn't want to spoil styles. How about if the lev had many hangs and someone released a deadbounce tutorial during the week?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

Igge wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:45
specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 09:25 maybe it was not obvious but i was comparing this situation to the time when alopatch was not implemented in the game
Yeah, and if a wide majority people accept that this script also is fine and should be implemented, or even if a majority accept and want fully scripted WR-runs to be allowed, then I guess they will be as well.

But at the moment they are not. That is the difference. There is no consensus on this external tool being used, and therefore imo it should be disallowed until the matter has been solved.
i didn't say that it (and everything) is automatically accepted, of course things need to be discussed and this discussion here is to talk about why alopatch was fine and this patch perhaps shouldn't be. also disallowing things that are not directly integrated in the game is not a valid reason since that's not how things have worked earlier either and as far as i know there's no one even willing to write any new features to the main exe.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Ruben »

specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:59
Igge wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:45
specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 09:25 maybe it was not obvious but i was comparing this situation to the time when alopatch was not implemented in the game
Yeah, and if a wide majority people accept that this script also is fine and should be implemented, or even if a majority accept and want fully scripted WR-runs to be allowed, then I guess they will be as well.

But at the moment they are not. That is the difference. There is no consensus on this external tool being used, and therefore imo it should be disallowed until the matter has been solved.
i didn't say that it (and everything) is automatically accepted, of course things need to be discussed and this discussion here is to talk about why alopatch was fine and this patch perhaps shouldn't be. also disallowing things that are not directly integrated in the game is not a valid reason since that's not how things have worked earlier either and as far as i know there's no one even willing to write any new features to the main exe.
IMO "that's how it used to be" is a really poor argument. Just because things were bad in the past doesn't mean it should be in the present.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

of course but it's not something that automatically means something
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

I'm just gonna chip in that I don't think anyone was trying to say alo was different back before it was implemented, I think it was pretty much the same situation. But the nature of the script was unique enough (it was completely unambiguous - just bind two keys to one to use a "feature" that's otherwise hard to use, no room to play with it) that it was accepted and implemented, and then it was no longer an issue. Although the same could happen to the brake tap button, the delay between key down and key up is a seemingly minor difference, but imo crucial, because it gives this flexibility - if a 30ms/1 frame delay is oke, then surely any other value is oke too? And we immediately open a pandora's box, as discussed earlier.

And I'm afraid I'm not convinced that it not being reliable or accurate enough for prolonged autoplay is a good reason for it to remain allowed, because hypothetically, what if it turns out that somehow it can be improved enough to be reliable and accurate enough?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

pawq wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 12:21if a 30ms/1 frame delay is oke, then surely any other value is oke too? And we immediately open a pandora's box, as discussed earlier.
that was the point of my initial message which then got derailed by all kinds of assumptions
specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 08:26the delay seems to be the only difference and problem in this case?
with alobutton the delay is 0, this script it is 20ms/whatever user decides to put it. is 0 only acceptable value? does it then mean we can bind together whatever two (or more?) buttons (ie. volt+brake) with 0 delay? can these kind of rules be defined in the first place? or should the rule be the suggested if-it's-not-in-the-game-it's-not-allowed? i think that would be a bad decision since there's no one to write any new features.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

specter2 wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 12:34with alobutton the delay is 0, this script it is 20ms/whatever user decides to put it. is 0 only acceptable value? does it then mean we can bind together whatever two (or more?) buttons (ie. volt+brake) with 0 delay? can these kind of rules be defined in the first place? or should the rule be the suggested if-it's-not-in-the-game-it's-not-allowed? i think that would be a bad decision since there's no one to write any new features.
There's a big difference between 0 and anything else, because 0 is not arbitrary. But, having said that, I don't necessarily think that any number of actions bound to a single instantaneous keypress is oke, because it constitutes many actions triggered by a single finger action, as it's been elaborated already. So, as much as it sucks to not be able to implement new features into the execs, I'm inclined to think that the if-it's-not-in-the-game-it's-not-allowed rule might be the most sensible thing to do. I think it might still be possible to make some exceptions to that rule, if there's some very clearly-defined and unarbitrary thing that we decide we want to permit, but I'd say not more than that.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 20:09 dont you see it ironical (and the most hard against the brake timing is danitah, who uses the most pop bugs on his advantage, interesting...)
I could just as easily say "Everyone who is the most for this are people who suck at pops". But I always tried to argue on the principles I believe in instead of personal attacks. I don't even care if it's "unfair" or whatever. What I care about: auto-play scripts shouldn't be allowed.
Orcc wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:55 It is clear that with a combination of skilled fingers and a good keyboard you can easily beat the script in accuracy. I gave the script to AIVO mans during WCup811 and after testing none of them used it because they didn't find it helpful. Yet again on this topic people keep complaining how unfair it is.
There's not much arguing about fairness. Does it give me an advantage to create a 10s hold gas script if a lev has a boring start? No. Arguably it makes it more comfortable for me to play, but it doesn't really give me a skill advantage. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it should be allowed. Also, if it's so useless as you say, why are you so adamant about allowing it?
Orcc wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:55 The script is like providing eyeglasses to people who can't see so that they could get a little help, but the people with perfect vision say "FUCK YOU, I don't need glasses so you shouldn't be allowed to use them either".
Your analogy would be more accurate if it's an eyesight competition where people compete about having the best eyesight.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Lousku »

specter2 wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 15:39
Igge wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 14:58 Could you theoretically de-compile a wr replay to get all inputs at different timeframes, and then use that data to build a script?
replays only have volt and turn events
No clue about rec format but internal rec player spins wheels correctly, plays gas sound correctly, louder sound for alo, and even does that idle sound when you're holding gas and brake at same time. So it seems like all events are there with the 30fps rec resolution.

What am I missing? Do you mean only volt and turn events are there at a higher resolution and the rest is unusable for autoplay because it's 30fps?

On topic: just play ff balles, no issue then. :-))
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

Lousku wrote: 11 Dec 2020, 00:49just play ff balles, no issue then. :-))
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

Ppl can make "rules" of how far you can go with scripting, but if someone wants to use it, he will.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

Then that someone will get banned and might get their records stripped, since that's the consequence for not abiding the rules, or cheating. Regardless of whether it's a he or a she.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Grace »

Orcc wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 11:55 About the original wheelpop script people seem to keep ignoring that it's not very accurate. Here is a screenshot from Monday of what pskript could do manually:
Image

Here's a comparison of what I could do with the script set to 12ms:
Image

It is clear that with a combination of skilled fingers and a good keyboard you can easily beat the script in accuracy. I gave the script to AIVO mans during WCup811 and after testing none of them used it because they didn't find it helpful. Yet again on this topic people keep complaining how unfair it is. How about doing some personal testing first? The script is like providing eyeglasses to people who can't see so that they could get a little help, but the people with perfect vision say "FUCK YOU, I don't need glasses so you shouldn't be allowed to use them either".

The reason I released this after the event and not during it was that I didn't want to spoil styles. How about if the lev had many hangs and someone released a deadbounce tutorial during the week?
I just want to note that inaccuracy/inconsistency in your script is not an indicator in any form of if it's acceptable or not. I'd also expect that fps/vsync & CPU/GPU have a huge impact on this inconsistency.

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I don't know why you you say that you didn't want to spoil styles and so you kept this secret, but shared it with specific players. Whether they used it or not is irrelevant. You potentially provided them a scripted advantage over other competitors, and before sharing it you couldn't know if they would use it or not.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by milagros »

the main reason alovolt was accepted was that it does depend on the keyboard (hardware) more than teh skill
fps limiter was mainly developed for sl, but it was kinda accepted mainly becuase it was a bit stupid to have to play for example animal farm on the laptop just becuase 60fps was required
it is hard to justify 2nddary brake as a cheat either
what i dont like about this wheelpop is that you can choose the interval, that's against the rules in almost any community

overall, the rules are the rules, because the community agrees on them, it makes elma fun to play and it is fair for anyone
if i had to vote, i would vote against fixed interval break, but if everybody else agrees, i don't care
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ROKKEBOL »

I equate this gak with normal wheelpoop, zspin, fps depended wrs, sl trainings. They who like perdoling may use it imo, np. Generally ppl just wait for new wrs and recs from zadrots nowadays, but dont make anything themselves due to orka osv. Thus why not?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

Lousku wrote: 11 Dec 2020, 00:49
specter2 wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 15:39
Igge wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 14:58 Could you theoretically de-compile a wr replay to get all inputs at different timeframes, and then use that data to build a script?
replays only have volt and turn events
No clue about rec format but internal rec player spins wheels correctly, plays gas sound correctly, louder sound for alo, and even does that idle sound when you're holding gas and brake at same time. So it seems like all events are there with the 30fps rec resolution.

What am I missing? Do you mean only volt and turn events are there at a higher resolution and the rest is unusable for autoplay because it's 30fps?

On topic: just play ff balles, no issue then. :-))
yes the event timings are accurate so you can for example count the exact time of the run from the replay (the object touch event) and those events are limited. then the frame data is different and has all the necessary info to play it like you described but they don't have timestamps it's just snapshots of the coordinates and some parameters of stuff with the abouts 30fps resolution. there is info if kuski is gassing so you can get that info from there, what you described about gas+brake sound is perhaps counted from gas and wheelrotation delta between some frames? and alo sound is normal volt x2 since alo is two volt events (left and right and right at the same time). so of course if you can play the rec it is possible to build something to mimic it but it's quite inaccurate.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by FinMan »

In my eyes one big question is: if there is a way to implement consistent 1 frame brake, should that be allowed, since it's not an arbitrary time frame? Basically a button that brakes until kuski brakes for that one physics frame and then stops.

That would not go beyond the limitations of "one keypress, one action", anything else does as far as I see it.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Igge »

FinMan wrote: 11 Dec 2020, 09:22 In my eyes one big question is: if there is a way to implement consistent 1 frame brake, should that be allowed, since it's not an arbitrary time frame? Basically a button that brakes until kuski brakes for that one physics frame and then stops.

That would not go beyond the limitations of "one keypress, one action", anything else does as far as I see it.
Imo would, because you both press and release (two actions) with one press. but idk abut the technical details that other games/communities use.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by milagros »

FinMan wrote: 11 Dec 2020, 09:22 In my eyes one big question is: if there is a way to implement consistent 1 frame brake, should that be allowed, since it's not an arbitrary time frame?
inside eol.exe (or bs.dll) - yes
with an external script (as it is now) - i don't know how would i do it
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Zweq »

Why are you even discussing? Let me just tell you how it is, and we can all go with it and close the thread:

1 frame pop AHK will be allowed from now on. I can do 75 fps 1 frame pops, just because I have a pro keyboard. Those that have a nab keyboard or have something on their pc causing an extra layer of lag can't do them at all. They should not be penalized.

Besides, soon i wil send 30 obamas to jonsykkel and he will finish okeol in a mere 1 month and nobody wil care about this thing at al in the future.

now amdin pls close topic, ty.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by jonsykkel »

Gonna lock this thread since the issue appears to be resolved.
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