Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

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Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

What
I created an AutoHotkey script for pressing brake for a single frame. Essentially this means that instead of quickly tapping brake button you can just press and hold the button but it works as if the brake was only tapped for a brief time.

Why
Before I haven't really paid much attention to wheelpopping because it has seemed like very tedious thing to do. However after trying it for the first time ever I noticed that I could save 0,1 seconds in WCup811.lev before the first apple so clearly it was too big of an advantage to give to the others. I was able to do the required brake taps manually but as I earlier expected it was really tedious thing to höyl.

I came up with this AHK script idea maybe six months ago and it was shortly discussed in Discord but I remember that the others mans participating in the discussion seemed to generally be against it. The general negativity towards the idea was a bit surprising to me but that was partly to be expected as resistance towards any change is very strong everywhere in life. I felt like I could live without wheelpopping so I just quickly gave up with the idea. However with this World Cup event I had to learn how to pop so I went on to write the script, and for all we know someone could very well already be using such a script without anyone knowing.

This is not the first time something controversial regarding the gameplay is published in Elma scene. Alovolt* patch? Initial reaction. Saveload? Initial reaction. In both cases after a brief while people noticed that maybe Elma wasn't destroyed after all and noticed that they both were actually quite nice additions for the gameplay.

In general many people are not interested in wheelpopping and some would like to see it regarded as a bug and not being accepted in replays. My goal here is not to have personal advantage but to make wheelpopping accessible for everyone (except maybe those who use macOS or some other idiot system that doesn't support AHK) without the regard for how quickly they can tap a single key and how expensive gaming keyboard they have. You will still need the perfect timing when to hit the wheelpop and have the requirements for it: low fps and the wheel rolling in the air before the pop.

* More about alovolt: Originally supervolt meant both rotate buttons being pressed simultaneously after a normal volt. If this was done without having an initial normal volt it was called alone supervolt = alovolt. Not nearly everyone could do alovolt so it was very advantageous to those who could do it. The ability to do it was believed to be caused by the keyboard but now later with more Elma knowledge clearly more of a factor was the fps. With alovolt patch everyone could do alovolt at any time even with fps that wouldn't make it humanly possible with original Elma setup.

How
First you need to download AHK from https://www.autohotkey.com/. Then download the wheelpop.ahk from http://kopasite.net/up/0/wheelpop.ahk.

To use the script all you need to do is run wheelpop.ahk and it will run on the background when you're playing Elma. It won't affect the functionality of the keyboard outside Elma.

Below is the script and how to make it work with your key setup (in the script file itself there are some lines that AHK added automatically, I don't know if they're useful or not but I left them there):

Code: Select all

#IfWinActive Elasto Mania
2::
Send, {Numpad5 down}
Sleep, 30
Send, {Numpad5 up}
return
The first line makes the script function only in Elasto Mania. If for some reason your Elasto Mania executable has a different name you will need to modify this (or just remove the line, but then it will also function outside Elma). The name of the executable is similar as for example Untitled - Notepad.

2::
This part defines what button you want to use for the brake tap. Personally I use number 2, but if you need some exotic button you might need to figure out how to define it in AutoHotkey. RTFM.

{Numpad5 down}
This refers to the normal brake button which for me is Numpad5. Modify this and the up-row to with whatever key you use for braking.

Sleep, 30
Here's the part that defines the time of the braking in milliseconds. For optimal result this should be set to the result of the equation 1000 / fps. In this default code you will see that it is optimized for 33 fps höyling.

Complaints and answers


C: This is cheating!
A: Ok. Then don't use it.

C: But you shouldn't use it either!
A: So what is the problem actually, making a tedious key tapping a bit more convenient to do?This script is not meant to do anything inhuman (unlike alo patch) but just to smoothen the gameplay and make wheelpopping actually enjoyable. If this is problematic I suggest you stop using alovolt button as well and make it manually with both rotate keys as it originally worked before someone decided to release a patch for it.

C: It is totally unfair to brake for an exact amount of milliseconds.
A: There's some truth to this, but let's do some math. The wheelpop is best done (AFAIK) when the brake is applied for one frame and one frame only. With 33 fps that time period would be 30 ms. If you go for a shorter key press the chances are that the brake won't register when the frame changes and if you go for longer keypress there's a chance that you will also hold the brake during the second frame when the wheel has already popped on the ground. Anyway pretty consistent keypress would be 20-40ms which is not so super accurate anymore when you think of it. If you go for high fps and short duration brake taps you won't really be able to time them or notice any pop advantage.

C: Now you can do unfair chainpopping because you can brake for so short time periods.
A: Well you can't really, because it's about how many times you can press the button per second and not for how short time the brake is actually applied. If you create many different brake buttons and spam them with different fingers then sure, but this script does not do that and in my opinion that would be cheating.

C: Now I'm losing my wheelpop records to people who don't have the true popping skill.
A: You had a good run, congrats. Now instead of competing against five people try competing against everyone and see who's the best.

C: What next, one keypress to autoplay the whole level?
A: That's something that could be scripted with Autohotkey, but that kind of activity I would consider cheating. There was a specific Autoplaying program made for Elma sometime in 2004-2005. Karlis spent a ton of time with it to höyl Warm Up. His own world record back then was 14,07 but even with excessive autoplay höyling he could only get 14,10 with autoplay. There's just too much randomness in Elma for autoplay to work. Still I can see it being beneficial for example in short tricky starts of lev and hope that nobody does it (that being said I also think manual höyling is easier than writing down and testing 0,001 second accurate keypresses, but who knows).

That's about it, now go enjoy wheelpopping and including them in your stylefinding! Personally I hope to join u14 club in Warm Up and wish to see many other mans join it as well. If someone can code a real wheelpop patch that reads your fps set in eolconf that'd be perfect.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by ArZeNiK »

like it or not, literally anyone else could have made this (or maybe they already have) so theres no point in trying to get rid of it/ban it since its basically undetectable
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by bene »

I made one slightly different a long time ago when 75 fps pops were new because that is way too tedious to do manually. Used it to beat some external records. Got bored of trying for these pops and haven't used it since.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

I'm not that into this, but why nat imo.

Before anyone fires off with some backlash: just remember what happened with Smibu and SL a few years back, and where SL is now.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 20:50 I'm not that into this, but why nat imo.

Before anyone fires off with some backlash: just remember what happened with Smibu and SL a few years back, and where SL is now.
Lets hope jon finishing okeol soon, so this popshit goes to trashcan.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

If you make a program to do more than one action in a sequence it is auto play imo. Alo is not very relevant for this convo since it was introduced very early in elma compared to where we are now. I'm sure people would have had the same reaction if it somehow never became the norm to use one key for alo and someone introduced an external program for it now. If the consensus became that this is something we want to introduce into elma and it became included in eol, then it would be ok.

Lets say you have a lev where the best start would be to hold gas for 1.23s and release, would it be ok to make a program for it? Technically this is the same thing.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

danitah wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 22:04 Alo is not very relevant for this convo since it was introduced very early in elma compared to where we are now. I'm sure people would have had the same reaction if it somehow never became the norm to use one key for alo and someone introduced an external program for it now.
Ehm were you around at that time? The game had been played for years and for example World Cups had been played without a separate alo button. It might seem like "very early in elma" but the Across/Elma development cannot be measured in years.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by FinMan »

I don't think this is that similar of a situation as the situation dani mentioned, here, just like with the alo patch, you still have to time the brake. In the case of the example, the autoplay would take care of the timing for you. It just makes it less of a pain in the ass to reproduce here, kinda like alo patch. Still a bit in a gray area though, but shouldn't be a game breaking thing.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

FinMan wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 22:59 I don't think this is that similar of a situation as the situation dani mentioned, here, just like with the alo patch, you still have to time the brake. In the case of the example, the autoplay would take care of the timing for you. It just makes it less of a pain in the ass to reproduce here, kinda like alo patch. Still a bit in a gray area though, but shouldn't be a game breaking thing.
It is still two actions you have to time correctly, and with the script the second action is auto timed.
Orcc wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 22:25
danitah wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 22:04 Alo is not very relevant for this convo since it was introduced very early in elma compared to where we are now. I'm sure people would have had the same reaction if it somehow never became the norm to use one key for alo and someone introduced an external program for it now.
Ehm were you around at that time? The game had been played for years and for example World Cups had been played without a separate alo button. It might seem like "very early in elma" but the Across/Elma development cannot be measured in years.
So something like first 10% of elma existence so far was without alo button? Still relatively early, like i said...
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

And saveload was introduced after 10 years and everyone raged to hell, but now that's only 50% of the game's lifetime and saveload has become a core part of the gameplay, just like the alo button earlier. What's the difference between accepting a new tool after playing the game for 10 years or for 20 years?

edit: Also, when you press the alo button, the equivalent actions are press one volt and artificially time the other volt to occur in the same frame. In the case of this tool, it's press brake and artificially time the release to occur one frame later. Yes, it's not the same, but can we really say that one is definitely ok and the other one not?

edit2: I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong btw, just kinda thinking aloud, but maybe just releasing something like this and letting people get used to it / cope is the only way to move forward, just like was the case with Smibu & SL.

edit3: But of course could use the same argument as the last sentence to justify full-on autoplay, which is obviously oke, so yea duno.
Last edited by pawq on 7 Dec 2020, 00:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

pawq wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 00:29 And saveload was introduced after 10 years and everyone raged to hell, but now that's only 50% of the game's lifetime and saveload has become a core part of the gameplay, just like the alo button earlier. What's the difference between accepting a new tool after playing the game for 10 years or for 20 years?

Also, when you press the alo button, the equivalent actions are press one volt and artificially time the other volt to occur in the same frame. In the case of this tool, it's press brake and artificially time the release to occur one frame later. Yes, it's not the same, but can we really say that one is definitely ok and the other one not?

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong btw, just kinda thinking aloud, but maybe just releasing something like this and letting people get used to it / cope is the only way to move forward, just like was the case with Smibu & SL.
Because it was not detectable and released before eol? How is that comparable...
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

What has the release of EOL got to do with anything? What we have in EOL is what mila alone decided to include in it. How about if he didn't decide to put an fps limiter in it? Releasing it now would again be a big debate although it's something that should be available for everyone. What he also should have included are buttons to change the fps mid run, but since he didn't now it's something that people feel would be cheating to have. If however you can do it by launching some random program to start on the background mid-run that's perfectly acceptable solution. Doesn't make any sense.

We have a recently discovered a new trick that saves some time in levels if used well. It's very hard to do so in a single run it's not very feasible to go for more than 1-3 instances of the trick and practically it's only efficient in very short levs unless you manage to find a quick or big time save spot with it. Most people are aware of this trick but not many have bothered to even try it, and for those who have not all even succeed, so it's mostly a trick for a few people who can then get a slight advantage over the others.

Above I was of course describing alovolt in the eyes of anyone in the early '00s. Sounded familiar? Maybe we can fast forward a couple years:

There was an extrernal program which allowed you do do the trick with every time you tried and it felt like magic. At first getting used to doing the trick was a bit clumsy, but suddenly it started to feel natural and people found more and more uses for it. Soon it wasn't a special short level time saver anymore but instead it became a normal way of playing all the levels. Almost every level has a place where you can use the new trick to save some time.

So will that be the case with wheelpop as well? The time saving possibilities with it are definitely smaller than with alovolt and it's still more difficult to learn to utilize, but I suppose only time will tell.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Ruben »

Warning, personal onion ahead:

For me it's as simple as wheelpops being utterly unenjoyable. They have pretty much ruined short hoylas for me already. Put wheelpop button into eol and now have to spend every second looking for pops everywhere??? Sounds total horror meta.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

Have to admit that I'm not too fond of it either because it's still hard, but it's still a part of the physics of the game.

Maybe the gameplay would look like this Spef rec with 60 fps: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/578/show ... l=qwquu006
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Igge »

I've never really tried wheelpops myself, but to me it doesn't sound like they affect that many levels since they're very hard to do efficiently, and also require low FPS.

I have a hard time seeing many ints or cup levels where someone would choose to go <70 FPS just to maybe squeeze in a wheelpop. Basically only short levels, or perhaps early in vsync levels that already require the low FPS (maybe start of AF or Tricks Abound or something?).

Maybe I'm mistaken, but to me it seems that basically wheelpops are synonymous with short low-fps levels. And to be honest, I have appreciated seeing the new life in levels like Warm Up and Free Fall even though I haven't attempted popping them myself. I think it's a neat and difficult trick that can save time in certain spots.

The issue here I guess isn't with wheelpops themselves, but the external program that might help you perform them more consistently. This one gives me a kinda strange feeling, as then it starts smelling TAS to me. Though I get Orcc's argument that basically alo button or fps limiter also can be seen as built-in TAS. Maybe we should just add a wheelpop button in eol conf and get rid of the external programs. Idk.

Either way, imo wheelpops pretty oke, external programs not so much. Updating eolconf maybe technically is the best solution, but who knows.

Edit: Just saw this rec by Orcc http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/578/show ... l=qwquu006
And tbh, if someone pulled that shit off in a real wr I would be super impressed rather than upset. For longer levs wheelpop seems to be basically a high risk, low reward tool that might only be applicable when going for insanely hoyled WRs.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by FinMan »

Most of the wheelpops arent, or don't require, 1 frame pops, and 1 frame brake input won't make it that much easier unless you do 75 fps or whatever. As far as my experience goes, 1 frame pops often aren't faster than longer ones, often the opposite.

This certainly doesn't give you a "wheelpop button", just makes 1 frame pops less of a pain in the ass to do. You still need to figure out the correct approach to a wheelpop, which is what everything else in this game also is about. As I said, this won't break the game, you still won't see everyone popping around in every level. Whenever you see a pop in a battle or whatever, the setup must be quite good and therefore reproducable, majority of the time without a natural setup wheelpops are slower.

Also, this is not realistically detectable, especially on lower fps, so I think it's better let people use it rather than someone get an advantage with it.

Autoplay (for let's say the first 2 seconds to time a gas release) is much more detectable, as every run is saved in the database. It also feels much more cheaty than this.

For me, wheelpops made short höyläs enjoyable for the first time in my "career". Otherwise those levels are just pressing gas and hoping you somehow get 0,01 faster times or something. Wheelpops give me an opportunity to figure out things other than just having grip for 0,1 longer or whatever. I'm not super good at höyläs compared to a lot of other people, but a lot of what I can do in shorter levels comes naturally, with skill. When levels are basically just autoplaying themselves as they were, it's really nice to see a breath of fresh air in those levels. I wasn't a fan of the concept (wheelpops) at first but after getting the hang of it, it sure is fun as hell. Of course just like with anything else, like brutals or bounces, there are borderline impsy pops that just take a ton of time to get even done but other than that I don't feel like they are much different from the two other "bugs" in the game I mentioned.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

I think I agree with Igge in that wheelpops themselves are not the issue here. Whether pops are a meaningful or enjoyable addition to the gameplay is a discussion that has been had over and over, and I don't think that those personal preferences are really relevant here. I guess people who like pops are more likely to support this than those who don't, but I think the more important issue than pops themselves is the idea of external scripting of Elma gameplay.

Yes, I totally get that it's a very similar situation as with alovolt, which was eventually accepted once properly implemented.

Yes, I get it that the tools that are available in EOL were basically chosen by mila at his own discretion, so he single-handedly and arbitrarily defined what tools are legal or not in Elma.

Yes, I get it that this isn't a cheat that will just increase the throttle by 10% and give ez wins, that it's only a practical tool to make a certain trick easier to pull off manually.

BUT.

I think it's a very major and broad issue, with a lot at stake. It is essentially external scripting to control gameplay. The major and clear difference between this and alo is that alo has become hardwired into elma, and therefore is available to everyone, and not subject to modification. But in this case, what's to prevent someone from changing the delay to a particular number of frames? What's to prevent someone from changing the keys from brake+release to turn+release+delay+turn+release (double turn)? Or something more advanced still, that will work despite the inherent randomness? The answer is nothing, because it's probably not feasible to detect such things even if the EOL server looked at and analysed and compared every single keypress in the game (just imagine adi's WCup810 rec, and how many times a double turn happened with the exact same time difference if there were over 600 turns overall, or how many brake taps of exactly the same length).

I also totally get the argument that putting this out in the open aims to level the field, because some people would've done it before. dani said he hated this argument when I talked to him yesterday, and I agree, I also hate it, but I can't ignore it. BUT, if we put scripting out in the open and say it's OK, then a handful of people might start using it for this exact purpose, but how many (with a weaker sense of honesty and fairness) will actively explore what else they can use it for, and how to maximise the advantage? Another problem with this argument is that it's a slippery slope - if we say that it's oke to spread assisting tools as long as someone out there is using one, then everything that's invented should be spread automatically, and we have complete anarchy when it comes to gameplay.

This also links back to the no-death-lag issue, which I consider far from resolved, because jon is not exactly keen on cooperation and compromise.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Orcc wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 19:58 If you create many different brake buttons and spam them with different fingers then sure, but this script does not do that and in my opinion that would be cheating.
This quote shows how subjective the entire thing really is. It's cheating to do exactly what you did but with this tiny adjustment?

I'd say there is no solution to this problem because of how easy it is for people to share things outside of this forum or the 'official' chat applications. Even if people couldn't share scripts, the ease of building a script like this in 2020 is much different then 2000, any script kiddie can make something like this in a matter of hours.

The things we know won't work:
- banning posting of scripts (people will share them anyways)
- banning use of scripts (people will use them anyways)
- allowing use of scripts (people will still call it cheating and lose trust in the administration)

So, good luck finding a solution. Perhaps the only thing to do is pretend it isn't happening.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by jonsykkel »

pawq wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 13:21 This also links back to the no-death-lag issue, which I consider far from resolved, because jon is not exactly keen on cooperation and compromise.
i not sure vat it means that im not cooperation, told u in pm 01/05/2020 hov to fix anti cheat disconecting ppl thing on serber side (based on gues of hov it vorks cuz i dont have serber gode), not my falt ppl vith aces to gode is being lazy xD

tej wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 22:14 So, good luck finding a solution. Perhaps the only thing to do is pretend it isn't happening.
solution is opvious, fix game so it dosent have dum cokie cliker mechanics that are xiitabl with 3min script
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

jonsykkel wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 22:27
pawq wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 13:21 This also links back to the no-death-lag issue, which I consider far from resolved, because jon is not exactly keen on cooperation and compromise.
i not sure vat it means that im not cooperation, told u in pm 01/05/2020 hov to fix anti cheat disconecting ppl thing on serber side (based on gues of hov it vorks cuz i dont have serber gode), not my falt ppl vith aces to gode is being lazy xD
You're right, I guess that was a bit unfair in this instance, since you did suggest a solution, so sorry. Looking at logs, it seems that Elma came out on steam virtually at the same time, which probably dragged away everyone's attention.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by farnsworth »

Luther still dont alo!
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

The game is bugged, maybe make more interesting levels that are not so fps and bug dependant and it's not an issue anymore. Anyway i don't see it as a cheat, it's a very similar tool as alopatch back then and that's ok.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

Why does something need to be detectable to ban it? Prolly can't detect if someone uses script for first 2s of lev or something.

We can make sharing illegal, then at least people know it's not acceptable to use. I don't see the problem with that at all.

We can't prevent anyone from using it but we can decide what is considered acceptable or not.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

danitah wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 08:58We can make sharing illegal, then at least people know it's not acceptable to use. I don't see the problem with that at all.
The risk of that is that the honest players won't use it (which is probably the majority, but who knows), but the not-so-honest ones won't care that they're getting an unfair (and illegal) advantage, as long as they don't get caught.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

didn't you also write
danitah wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 00:33 Because it was not detectable and released before eol? How is that comparable...
i don't care for pops but i haven't seen a single reason why this shouldn't be allowed. "scripting sequence" is not good since alo already does that, both are/were (most likely) undetectable.. what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

specter2 wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 10:33i don't care for pops but i haven't seen a single reason why this shouldn't be allowed. "scripting sequence" is not good since alo already does that, both are/were (most likely) undetectable.. what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
But what about more advanced scripting sequences? Adding one more operation still ok? Two more? Five seconds?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by kuchitsu »

If I remember correctly, in classic Doom deathmatch the line is drawn at one action per keypress. So you can bind an instant 57 degree turn or whatever if you need it for some reason, but you can't make it shoot at the same time and obviously you can't have sequences. I think it's a pretty good and simple limitation, and both the alovolt and the one frame brake would fit that definition (yeah, alovolt is two keypresses, but the biker performs one action, which is the important part). I guess you could argue that a tap is two actions (activating brake, then deactivating it) but ehh, it's instant, so...
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

kuchitsu wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 13:12 If I remember correctly, in classic Doom deathmatch the line is drawn at one action per keypress. So you can bind an instant 57 degree turn or whatever if you need it for some reason, but you can't make it shoot at the same time and obviously you can't have sequences. I think it's a pretty good and simple limitation, and both the alovolt and the one frame brake would fit that definition (yeah, alovolt is two keypresses, but the biker performs one action, which is the important part). I guess you could argue that a tap is two actions (activating brake, then deactivating it) but ehh, it's instant, so...
I kinda like the idea, but a tap is not instant, especially not in the scripted case - it's timed, in this case at 30ms, but could be timed at any interval or number of frames...
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by milagros »

pawq wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 13:21 Yes, I get it that the tools that are available in EOL were basically chosen by mila at his own discretion, so he single-handedly and arbitrarily defined what tools are legal or not in Elma.
tools in EOL in this regard are identical to 1.2 as far as i know, so hey were not chosen by me single-handedly
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 12:56
specter2 wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 10:33i don't care for pops but i haven't seen a single reason why this shouldn't be allowed. "scripting sequence" is not good since alo already does that, both are/were (most likely) undetectable.. what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
But what about more advanced scripting sequences? Adding one more operation still ok? Two more? Five seconds?
Its not working for five seconds, maximum 2-3, also who cares, pops are bugs which are used already in wrs, also there is bug bnc's on wr table and shit vsync bug wrs, just one more thing causes nothing more than a bit lower wr total if you can push off any wrs by this "help method".

Only fix is okeol, go jon finish it pls!
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Orcc »

I did some testing on this site that Raven linked in Discord https://blog.seethis.link/scan-rate-estimator/. Based on my tests AHK timings are far from accurate and keypress durations (Sleep function in AHK) vary within roughly 20 ms. Still, I had a lot of variance when doing manual keypresses on that site, so I don't know if it's just my computer or AHK. Also Zweq said that he had before tested AHK autoplay for Jaws start which is nothing but throttle and one rotate, but even that was too much for AHK script to be usable. All in all when you combine Elma randomness and AHK inaccuracy I think it's fairly safe to say that AHK is not suitable for autoplaying.

Pretty much the only things that AHK is good for are extremely fast (but still inaccurate) key presses or combinations. Here we come to the discussion that what kind of keyboard configurations are allowed. Keyboards have huge differences on how smooth key presses they allow and nowadays there are gaming keyboard that come with all kinds of buttons. You can bind brake to arrow or numpad or alt but how about more exotic keys? Raven's keyboard has a volume slider much like a freely scrolling mouse wheel with which he can do several keypresses with 1ms delay. It's a normal keyboard button, are you allowed to use it for Elma? If both rotates are allowed to be bound to one button for alovolt could you instead bind brake and turn if needed?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

milagros wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 14:49tools in EOL in this regard are identical to 1.2 as far as i know, so hey were not chosen by me single-handedly
FPS limiting was an EOL feature though no?


Good arguments by Orcc imo, maybe most convincing to my so far. This also links back to what kuchi wrote, about only one simultaneous action being permitted in Doom, while for example binding brake and turn to one key would break that. But then binding brake and turn doesn't feel like a cheat to my, just means need to press one key instead of two, but still need to time everything etc...

Maybe should bind turn to volume scrollwheel and try piping with that :lol: (i have the same keyb as Raven)
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

pawq wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 12:56
specter2 wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 10:33i don't care for pops but i haven't seen a single reason why this shouldn't be allowed. "scripting sequence" is not good since alo already does that, both are/were (most likely) undetectable.. what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
But what about more advanced scripting sequences? Adding one more operation still ok? Two more? Five seconds?
that is of course a different discussion and i don't really have an opinion about that yet. personally i couldn't care less if someone binded 5 seconds lasting three buttons sequence to one keypress.. it would start to sound sketchy but i just don't think it matters that much.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

specter2 wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 10:33 didn't you also write
danitah wrote: 7 Dec 2020, 00:33 Because it was not detectable and released before eol? How is that comparable...
i don't care for pops but i haven't seen a single reason why this shouldn't be allowed. "scripting sequence" is not good since alo already does that, both are/were (most likely) undetectable.. what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
SL was not allowed before eol, even though SL was not detectable. Auto-play scripts are not allowed in eol, even though it is not detectable (duno if actually detectable by server or not but doesnt matter). So what's my contradiction? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
specter2 wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 10:33 what's the reason that popping should be so hard when it was decided alo shouldn't be?
It is what it is, not up to me to decide what should or shouldn't be hard. Also it's not as hard as people think. It's not just about difficulty, doing one frame pops opens up to doing ridiculous pops with higher FPS values that were not very doable before. You're not fixing anything, just making pops usable in even more cases than before... If usage of this becomes widespread, it might become standard to use pops in battles. Right now I'm not using pops in battles, only exception is if someone else is doing pops already. (Actually that's a lie since I've used pops in some battles but I try not to). Now it might become standard to use pops in battles.

Anyway all these arguments are not very useful, it is mega simple what should be allowed imo:
Making any alias is ok, including any combo alias.
Any sequenced script is not ok (using a timer between actions). You are automizing part of the gameplay.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

A bit help to int12 start for those who interested:

Code: Select all

Enter::
   Send, {gas down}
   Sleep 769
   Send, {gas up}
   Send, {brake down}
   Sleep 91
   Send, {brake up}
   Send, {gas down}
   Sleep 987
   Send, {right down}
   Sleep 30
   Send, {right up}
   Sleep 945
   Send, {gas up}
   Send, {left down}
   Sleep 30
   Send, {left up}
Return
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by bene »

My script that I made a year ago didn't use timer sleep thingy and worked perfectly fine anyway at 70-80 fps. Didn't test lower because I dont see the need for a script at low fps. It's no magic science to tap the brake at 30 fps and as finman said sometimes need two or four frame brake or whatever. And in levels like wu it differs how long the brake needs to be between different pops in the level. First pop should be more than one frame and third (using danitah pops counting) is one frame only.
My script also could do turn in the same frame because that is useful sometimes.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by specter2 »

danitah wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 18:00 SL was not allowed before eol, even though SL was not detectable. Auto-play scripts are not allowed in eol, even though it is not detectable (duno if actually detectable by server or not but doesnt matter). So what's my contradiction? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
alright i misunderstood what your reply was trying to say.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

bene wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 18:54 My script that I made a year ago didn't use timer sleep thingy and worked perfectly fine anyway at 70-80 fps. Didn't test lower because I dont see the need for a script at low fps. It's no magic science to tap the brake at 30 fps and as finman said sometimes need two or four frame brake or whatever. And in levels like wu it differs how long the brake needs to be between different pops in the level. First pop should be more than one frame and third (using danitah pops counting) is one frame only.
My script also could do turn in the same frame because that is useful sometimes.

Code: Select all

e::
   Send {brake down}{space down}
   Sleep 110
   Send {space up}{brake up}
Return
For first warmup pop this is useful.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by tej »

Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 18:45 A bit help to int12 start for those who interested:

Code: Select all

Enter::
   Send, {gas down}
   Sleep 769
   Send, {gas up}
   Send, {brake down}
   Sleep 91
   Send, {brake up}
   Send, {gas down}
   Sleep 987
   Send, {right down}
   Sleep 30
   Send, {right up}
   Sleep 945
   Send, {gas up}
   Send, {left down}
   Sleep 30
   Send, {left up}
Return
See, this is crossing the line between "1 keypress = 1 keypress" script which is easily done with most hardware, to "1 keypress = playing a considerable amount of moves".

There is a strict line between these two things, and on one side you have finite limitations, and on the other you don't.

If you allow scripts this complex, there is no definite limitation on how long it can be, or how complex. Are we allowed to read the colour of pixels on the screen too? Perhaps run a little neural network?

This is a line I'd say we should never cross, and unfortunately, it looks like you already have.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

I guess Labs would be one of the first to jump on the SL train if times didn't have to be driven online.

Regardless of whether his timings work or not, that should definitely be strictly illegal, and I hope a satisfactory monitor can be implemented at some point.

My trust in Labs's results and times has just been cut in half, and I hope that it won't eventually extend to half of the community.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 19:51 I guess Labs would be one of the first to jump on the SL train if times didn't have to be driven online.

Regardless of whether his timings work or not, that should definitely be strictly illegal, and I hope a satisfactory monitor can be implemented at some point.

My trust in Labs's results and times has just been cut in half, and I hope that it won't eventually extend to half of the community.
I dont care what is your trust about my times, its not about that. I say that if pops (which are bugs of physics) are normal to people to use it on their advantage, then these scripts also normal. People using low fps to get better time on small höyl levs, people using pops to get better time, people using buggy bnc's to get better time on levs, people using vsync bugs to get better times on levs, people changing fps with different methods while playing a lev, to get better times. These are all normal for people to get advantage over others, but timing a brake is not, dont you see it ironical (and the most hard against the brake timing is danitah, who uses the most pop bugs on his advantage, interesting...)? Anyway, the int12 code is there to show, how long it is possible to go with script, which is not 5 secs as you think. All of these things makes the wr table a joke.
Last edited by Labs on 8 Dec 2020, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by FinMan »

My stance has been further settled on the "1 frame = 1 action" as well, and tapping brake imo is one action. Just might never work on one keyboard while on another one it might be doable. Minimum brake time button doesn't fall off the edge in my eyes, anything else does. A brake tap really isn't two actions but one, practically thinking, when you are really just trying to do it as fast as you can.

Of course there's ways to do it more consistently etc (which you could practice without scripts) but I don't see the appeal in that, if I wanna get good at something which requires precision other than timing, I'll play some other game or disc golf or something.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by danitah »

FinMan wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 20:33 My stance has been further settled on the "1 frame = 1 action" as well, and tapping brake imo is one action.
But it's two frames right? The goal here is brake down in one frame, brake up in the next frame.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 20:09I dont care what is your trust about my times, its not about that. I say that if pops (which are bugs of physics) are normal to people to use it on their advantage, then these scripts also normal. People using low fps to get better time on small höyl levs, people using pops to get better time, people using buggy bnc's to get better time on levs, people using vsync bugs to get better times on levs, people changing fps with different methods while playing a lev, to get better times. These are all normal for people to get advantage over others, but timing a brake is not, dont you see it ironical (and the most hard against the brake timing is danitah, who uses the most pop bugs on his advantage, interesting...)? Anyway, the int12 code is there to show, how long it is possible to go with script, which is not 5 secs as you think. All of these things makes the wr table a joke.
How is utilising existing physics bugs equivalent to scripting gameplay?!!
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by joo »

AHK timings are far from accurate
You can write own software that use low level API’s directly, maybe could get better accuracy? Also maybe increasing process priority increases accuracy?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 22:18
Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 20:09I dont care what is your trust about my times, its not about that. I say that if pops (which are bugs of physics) are normal to people to use it on their advantage, then these scripts also normal. People using low fps to get better time on small höyl levs, people using pops to get better time, people using buggy bnc's to get better time on levs, people using vsync bugs to get better times on levs, people changing fps with different methods while playing a lev, to get better times. These are all normal for people to get advantage over others, but timing a brake is not, dont you see it ironical (and the most hard against the brake timing is danitah, who uses the most pop bugs on his advantage, interesting...)? Anyway, the int12 code is there to show, how long it is possible to go with script, which is not 5 secs as you think. All of these things makes the wr table a joke.
How is utilising existing physics bugs equivalent to scripting gameplay?!!
Using bugs on your advantage is same harm as using a script to get advantage. Why would any of these would be an accepted behavior? Just because you think phisics bugs are fun, it doesnt make them more acceptable than using a brake script. As i said already, only good option is to forget eol and push okeol into finish line.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 23:05Using bugs on your advantage is same harm as using a script to get advantage. Why would any of these would be an accepted behavior? Just because you think phisics bugs are fun, it doesnt make them more acceptable than using a brake script. As i said already, only good option is to forget eol and push okeol into finish line.
Yes, it does make them more acceptable, because they are embedded in the game everyone is using in exactly the same way. But even that isn't completely accepted, as for example bug bounces are not (I know it's subjective and arbitrary blablablablabla that's not the discussion here).

By scripting a run, you remove the human element of being able to play it, because all you have to do is tweak some numbers to get the right moves, so in that sense it's even worse than saveload. How is it not perfectly obvious that this is cheating and must be strictly prohibited? Can you imagine elma becoming a game that's not about the ability to play but about the ability to tweak macros quickly? What's even the point of playing anymore then?
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 23:12
Labs wrote: 8 Dec 2020, 23:05Using bugs on your advantage is same harm as using a script to get advantage. Why would any of these would be an accepted behavior? Just because you think phisics bugs are fun, it doesnt make them more acceptable than using a brake script. As i said already, only good option is to forget eol and push okeol into finish line.
Yes, it does make them more acceptable, because they are embedded in the game everyone is using in exactly the same way. But even that isn't completely accepted, as for example bug bounces are not (I know it's subjective and arbitrary blablablablabla that's not the discussion here).

By scripting a run, you remove the human element of being able to play it, because all you have to do is tweak some numbers to get the right moves, so in that sense it's even worse than saveload. How is it not perfectly obvious that this is cheating and must be strictly prohibited? Can you imagine elma becoming a game that's not about the ability to play but about the ability to tweak macros quickly? What's even the point of playing anymore then?
I dont know what makes bugs in phisic acceptable advantage just because "everyone" is using them. Why your soul didnt go against pops when it got "released"? There was noone using them before, but some people liked it after coming into way of gameplay. Others may totally dislike it, and against it, but is still accepted because game not prevents you from doing it. Maybe some guys liking to use script to use brake for them and spaces with good timing, some people may dislike it, and against it, but then is still have to be accepted with same logic, as there is nothing prevents you from doing it in game. You cannot stop people using it just because you dont like it, or you saying it makes inhuman advantage, bugs doing it also. You still have to be better than others to beat them, you cannot script whole runs since game is random. There is the script up for you to try making it work longer, it wont, very good example for ppl, what is possible. But only thing comes down for you is that you assuming things of me. Did i use the warmup script? Yes. Imo is totally acceptable. Did i use the int12 one? No. I made it for testing. But even if some will use it or not, or people using other scripts on other levs, i dont care.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by pawq »

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 00:22I dont know what makes bugs in phisic acceptable advantage just because "everyone" is using them. Why your soul didnt go against pops when it got "released"?
Because wheelpops can be achieved by legitimate finger movements on the keyboard, just like any other kind of legitimate gameplay.

Labs wrote: 9 Dec 2020, 00:22Maybe some guys liking to use script to use brake for them and spaces with good timing, some people may dislike it, and against it, but then is still have to be accepted with same logic, as there is nothing prevents you from doing it in game.
One is playing the game, the other is instructing your PC to play it for you. Hardly the same thing.
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Re: Wheelpopping - AutoHotkey script for a one frame brake tap

Post by Labs »

pawq wrote: 6 Dec 2020, 20:50 I'm not that into this, but why nat imo.

Before anyone fires off with some backlash: just remember what happened with Smibu and SL a few years back, and where SL is now.

Code: Select all

One is playing the game, the other is instructing your PC to play it for you. Hardly the same thing.
This also playing the game for you, the only thing is where you put the imaginationary line.
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