Fresh New Elma INTERNALS - it can be reality.

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Fresh New Elma INTERNALS - it can be reality.

Post by dz » 31 May 2003, 16:58

dz earlier wrote:I really think the best soultion would be to comeone who can code, to make a patch, which would only include an option to play regular internals, or "new internals", exactly the same way as they are played now. state.dat should be exactly same thing. this could be organized by moposite so that for example, there is three months time to send in levels by all of us, and then some group of people would choose for example 54 levels which would be the "new internals". it's important that the group is not too small who would decide which levels are chosen, because they should have variety, but still not just "stupid" and sensless.

i dont think it's difficult to accomplish at all.
we just need a guy like Hibernatus, who would be the best to do the "coding part". Think about it, after that patch, there would be NO differences in real internals, and new internals as for the system. same state.dat system and all.

What do you think of this idea?
So, i decided to create an own topic for this because it is, as an idea, very interesting in my opinion.

Here's simply what i mean:

Hypothesis:
* We finally want new Internal Levels internalized to Elasto Mania, because we are bored to have those same 54 Levels from year to year.
* We don't want another "External Pack" like OLP, because it simply is just another pack of Externals.
* It has to have same state.dat system like Internals has now.
* It is 100% internalized to Elasto Mania, meaning that when you choose "Play", you get another window where you can choose which pack of Internals you want to play.
* Later on, when Abula comes back from army, he can/might create records section to these New Internals as well; Total Times, Top10, etc.

That's the basics.

What Levels we would then have there?
I'm not 100% sure what is the best method getting levels, but it would seem that, basically, people have quite a time to create levels, and some chosen group, for example, would then see them and give suggestions what to improve and then at the end, choose some number of levels, like, lets say, 54, as there are now.

How can we then internalize them to Elasto Mania so that they really are Internals, not just a bunch of externals like OLP?
This is a part which has to be made some programmer, like Hibernatus.
He/someone would simply create a patch which would have these new Internals internalized in Elma. I think it's not difficult at all for those great programmers.

Please, share your ideas of this subject. What to improve etc.

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Post by MagnusB » 31 May 2003, 17:35

First of all I want to say that I, personally, REALLY, REALLY want new internals. I also think that it will be good for the entire scene and the game.

Secondly, I also agree with that something similar to OLP is pointless. While it sounds good in theory, we've already seen that it just doesn't work. The only way to make a new set of levels as popular as the internals is to incorporate them directly into the game.

The in-game menus are not a very big problem, I think. Hibernatus obviously had no problems adding new menus in his patches, and I even heard something about something similar being possible with resedit.exe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The biggest problem seems to be to get good new levels. Say what you want, but I think the internals are perfect for höyling. They're fairly open-ended, simple, and perfectly stylized (no useless crap). I've made a short list over things I would like to see in the New Internals (NI) :)
  • The same style as the internals, but no internals remakes
  • Not too linear (some internals don't fulfill this requirement. For example Sink and Freefall)
  • No planned wr-styles. It's not the level maker's job to decide which route is best to take, and the best "super-styles" are often flaws in the level (well, this is just my opinion)
Feel free to disagree with me. :arrow:

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Post by 2fast » 31 May 2003, 17:43

My guess-every designer would make one or two levs and judges would choose the best 54 levs.

But hey,that`s just what I think.

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Post by WkE » 31 May 2003, 18:26

DESIGNER - that's exactly the problem...
you can't say that someone "design" Warm Up, Twin Peaks, Bumpy Journey.. they're just simple, no too "designed" and full of details. little details, like all the externals have.

let's choose some internals who look to us "most internalic" - i mean, not like sink and freefall.

let's say, Warm up, twin peaks, tag, new wave, turnaround and enigma.
so, what do they have in common ?
-grassy
-really few pics
-EASY to finish for beginners (pro styles isn't neccessary to complete the lev, possibility to drive carefully on main route)
-holyable for beginners & pros in the same way
-no head-traps (xept headbanger) and pipes needed to complete them
-not heavy look (G pictures, micro-spikes etc.) ! as simple as we can
-MagnusB said true - only main route made on purpose. inventing styles when making the level may make the style really easy afterwards.

that's all i've gotta say.
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Post by skint0r » 31 May 2003, 18:35

I'm pretty sure Hib will not make this, but maybe someone else will. And I don't think I will play these anymore than I play OLP unless the levs were made by balazszzsz or csabbza. Seems there not many that can make the same type of levels, they're either just copies or bad remakes.
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Post by MagnusB » 31 May 2003, 20:03

I think the main problem with most externals is that the level maker is not as n00bish as whoever made all the internals were. They can foresee most of the possible styles in the levels when they're making them, and so they often end up adjusting their levels to that style. What we need is someone who has a good grasp of the game (like the developers obviously have) and can make decent levels, but still are "bad" players. Not easy to find.

WkE, you mention Twin Peaks as a level that can be höyled the same way by both pros and noobs. I disagree, and I don't necessarily think that that's a good quality in a level. Twin Peaks is actually a very good example of what I said above. Only a true noob could overlook the OMG-SO-OBVIOUS "going down at the start"-style in Twin Peaks. That's the kind of level I want to see.

I agree that the levels should be easy (or at least not very hard) to finish for beginners, and the most important aspect then is how long the level is. Levels like Apple Harvest, Zig Zag, Animal Farm and Labyrinth Pro are too long in my opnion. The ideal length is somewhere between 30 seconds and 1 minute, and it's ok with some slightly shorter levels. Of course, Zig Zag is an example of that it's impossible to plan how long a level will be.

I think the quality of the levels are the only problem with this idea. Apart from that it's great.

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Post by MopoGirl » 31 May 2003, 20:32

i'm with skint. if this happens, people may take it seriously, but still not as seriously like if balazs made them. let's just leave this to balazs.

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Post by Zweq » 31 May 2003, 20:34

without longer speeches.
LOL idea

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Post by onlainari » 31 May 2003, 22:10

The old known internals are so well mapped in our heads and consiousneszzzsz ,that new levels are never internals in this game. nevertheless i agree with skint and mopogirl ,that new levs could get some attention if they really were done by BALAZS & CSABA team.
If levs are made by any of us players,it wont work.

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Post by John » 31 May 2003, 22:51

Im satisfied with the current internals....
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Post by ToTaL » 31 May 2003, 23:31

I agree with onlainari. New internals made by some players would not be any good. And i think that it is enough with 54 internals that are the chief competition in elma. If you want a break you play externals..
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Post by SveinR » 1 Jun 2003, 01:11

I like this idea. But as mentioned, the levels are the problem. I too think it would be best if they were made by Balazs and Csaba, but that will probably be difficult to get to happen. Who knows, they might be making levels for Elma 2 at this moment ;)

If the levels won't be good enough, I'm afraid the contest will die out after a while. When I come to think more about it, the ONLY way the contest can survive is to have levels by Balazs and Csaba.
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Post by Abula » 1 Jun 2003, 04:00

During last 4-5 years Csabalázs has created only a few levels and they all are crap expect Bowling but MUe made that. Think those: Pipe, Sink, Steep Corner, Bumpy Journey, doh. Maybe Gravity and Tag are good ones, and Upside Down. Ok a few good ones too but still. The original 42 (or 24) were made in different editor where you wasn't able to make tight polygon merges etc. so you had to leave some gaps (like in Headbanger) and stuff. I agree with MagnusB: we would need a bad player to make the levels. But who decides that who should make those?

At least half of us won't download new patches etc. just to play "new internals" and therefore the levels won't get famous (some of them doesn't even bother to download a patch containing some merging and alovolt options). I think there is only one way to get a new level pack: Balázs makes a new official release with levels which everyone will download (still it would take months) and new lists on many different pages (plus replay pages).

After all, do people want new internal levels? Can't you just hoyla a few years more?-) Why not make some external contests bigger by playing them too?

As a Moposite updater I fear a bit that those new levels would be a disappointment once again like OLP was (it was and is). I don't want to waste much work to new unactive lists.
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Post by Juble » 1 Jun 2003, 08:05

I think it would be an idea that one level from each well know designer.
and they spend like 2-3 months desiging it.

And then you mite send into like Blaz and Csab and they program the new patch so.

And maybe they could make a couple.

And call them new internals.

but who knows it mite be a the next elma HIT.

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Post by Antz » 1 Jun 2003, 10:59

i really feel like it should be balazs and csaba who make the new levels. it just isn't the same if they're made by players =/. but the idea is great imo.
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Post by petsen » 1 Jun 2003, 11:49

i think new internals should be = Elma 2 ... not new internals for Elma .... just my opinion...
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Post by Karlis » 1 Jun 2003, 11:56

I dont understand why it was so hard to do OLP as internals at that time...

anyway, I kinda agree with petsen, new version with new levs by balazs and csaba would be the best solution, but what kind of new version? only more elastic bike again and few annoying new speedloop levs like last time (across -> elma) thnx but no thnx
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Post by WkE » 1 Jun 2003, 13:58

i don't think that Csaba or Balazs business in life is creating elma levels.
they have other things to do.

maybe-maybe they'll accept to create 1-2 new internals.

but i don't think we have to get a full new pack... if it won't success - it won't success, and if it WILL success - the real internals would be less hoyled...

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Post by sonic_fruit » 1 Jun 2003, 14:22

WkE wrote:-EASY to finish for beginners (pro styles isn't neccessary to complete the lev, possibility to drive carefully on main route)
i think this is important
it sucks when you get a levpack and there's just one you can't do because it requires like an expert style
and you can do all the rest

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Post by MopoGirl » 1 Jun 2003, 14:37

WkE wrote:i don't think that Csaba or Balazs business in life is creating elma levels.
they have other things to do.
man that was annoying. it's obvious they have other things to do, they're humans, duh. we have other things to do, to. but that still doesn't mean that they won't ever do it.

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Post by WkE » 1 Jun 2003, 14:43

MopoGirl wrote:
WkE wrote:i don't think that Csaba or Balazs business in life is creating elma levels.
they have other things to do.
man that was annoying. it's obvious they have other things to do, they're humans, duh. we have other things to do, to. but that still doesn't mean that they won't ever do it.
hmmm can you please tell me where did i wrote they won't never do it :?:
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Post by MopoGirl » 1 Jun 2003, 15:11

stop being a smartass, you know that's what you meant.

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Post by chux » 1 Jun 2003, 15:14

it might be a good idea to have new internals, but see how long theyve been around...and people still play them...i think the old internals should stay. Theyre the best levpack around. new internals are not needed when you can have externals.
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Post by Karlis » 1 Jun 2003, 15:39

chux wrote:it might be a good idea to have new internals, but see how long theyve been around...and people still play them...i think the old internals should stay. Theyre the best levpack around. new internals are not needed when you can have externals.
true......there's still many hundreds to cut off on those tracks, never give up höyling
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Post by Jonas » 1 Jun 2003, 16:02

Why do you guys want more levels?...don´t you play these internals too much already?....I think Balaszczczcz created the editor for a reason....so that people who is tired of the internals can choose other levels to play....There are already so many lev-packs out so we don´t need anymore....play the Lost internals, or the OLP....
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Post by milagros » 1 Jun 2003, 17:14

i played internals for so much time and now i should play some others omg?
i still don't get it why do people don't play externals like olp/lost internals/...
other internals can be easily put into the game but they're not needed
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Post by petsen » 1 Jun 2003, 17:52

Karlis wrote:
chux wrote:it might be a good idea to have new internals, but see how long theyve been around...and people still play them...i think the old internals should stay. Theyre the best levpack around. new internals are not needed when you can have externals.
true......there's still many hundreds to cut off on those tracks, never give up höyling

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Post by Epsilon » 1 Jun 2003, 18:35

Hey people...

My opinion is that 54 internals are enough and for those who are not satisfied from them, external packs are enough, OK? There will be no actual difference, if in order to reach a pack of levels we will just press a different menu object...

Now, just wanted to say, Hibernatus won't do that, he's busy with cheating some pipe contests... :lol:
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Post by Chris Penrose » 1 Jun 2003, 18:43

Csaba and Balazs should make the levs for elma 2.0, but not new internals for the current version. They should make levs only if they decide to themselves. We can say, "balazs, make some new levs if you have time." Naturally he will say yes, but maybe only to be polite because he's a nice chap. Soon we will have them strapped in front of a computer making levs, and we will be whipping furiously. WORK! MAKE US LEVELS! BLAH!

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Post by Zweq » 1 Jun 2003, 22:05

Abula wrote: After all, do people want new internal levels? Can't you just hoyla a few years more?-) Why not make some external contests bigger by playing them too?
yeah! that's what i like.
some of internals have been hoyled 6 years.
why not to hoyl another 6 years and then start thinking of new ints. :P

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Post by Antz » 2 Jun 2003, 08:54

haeh then6 years later it's like "well we've been hoyling same internals for 12 years, why not hoyl 12 more"
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Post by MaZ » 2 Jun 2003, 11:50

I think its almost impossible to make levels without notice the shortcuts. after a person have seen a couple of wr replays they realize that almost everything is possible. so the shortcuts will be REALLY hard if the designer wont notice them.

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Post by sonic_fruit » 2 Jun 2003, 13:21

i think there's no point setting the number of levels and then finding the best.
those who are judging should decide on a level of quality (make it VERY HIGH) and then continue to accept entries for a long time until you get enough. i reckon about 64 levels should be cool.

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Post by WkE » 2 Jun 2003, 13:30

Balazs said once that he didn't thought some of the shortcuts are possible when he made the levs.

and after i have a pack, i can tell you some things :
when i was in my bed and i planned the 1st level, i thought about amazingly genius shortcut ! it WAS super-wise, but i wanted to make it possible for sure, so i made it SOOO easy so everyone can figure it out very shortly.

in my 9th level, i didn't made shortcuts at all. but, what a surprise, devin told me that he have 29 secs improvement to the pack record... of course, a new crazy style hoyled good.... but not a shortcut....
in fact, it was a super-cool shotcut, hard and wise. not easy, and what made it not noticeable was that i didn't thought about it !

so, what IS the problem ? when you're making a level, you want to do it cool, but also finishing it as fast as you can. so you don't have time to hoyl a mad shortcut for 2 months till you success it... you want to do the shortcut when you're making the level, so you're creating an easy one.

sorry for the long post, i won't do it again :oops: (well, it's a lot to read)
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Post by Antz » 2 Jun 2003, 15:23

one of the coolest things i can think of in elma is to do a shortcut the level designer hasn't thought of. but it's true they should not be done on purpose, or then on purpose but way too hard for you.
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Post by Zweq » 2 Jun 2003, 16:11

antz you are SO RIGHT!

Quick round and ramp frenzy for example.
so rox that i cry :cry:

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Post by WkE » 2 Jun 2003, 17:28

balaz said in an interview that many of the possible styles he didn't even dream that could be possible !

it's SO interesting what he made on purpose... most likely only Twin Peaks :wink:

ok ok this is an off-topic....
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Post by Ikop » 3 Jun 2003, 10:38

i realy dont think we need new internals.
many of the the original intenals are not hoyled to the maximum
,
not all styles have been descoverd.
new internals will be needed only when the old one will be hoyld to the maximum, it will happen in 3 ,4 years, maybe more..

there are many externals contest, wcup and many more.

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Post by Serj » 3 Jun 2003, 12:00

New Internals, only when the old ones are hoyled to the max. Meaning the same WR-list for over a month (or something like that).
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Post by Juble » 29 Nov 2003, 02:30

I really think this is a good idea still, would be nice.

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Post by BigRed » 29 Nov 2003, 03:58

I reckon it would be a good idea.
Already sick of current Internals.
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Post by Behk » 29 Nov 2003, 09:41

It`s a nice idea and I started to make some new internals,but only got to 5.They look like internals and someone want not levs that look like internals.
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Post by Loz » 29 Nov 2003, 11:27

Elma 1.2 had the possibility to add new internals, who said we have to have just 54 internals, we could have 100, 200, or even 300, if it is possible,
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Post by Crazy » 29 Nov 2003, 13:51

milagros wrote:i played internals for so much time and now i should play some others omg?
i still don't get it why do people don't play externals like olp/lost internals/...
other internals can be easily put into the game but they're not needed
Ez agree!

What if new internals were added. Peolple like DarMoeD,Cloud, Zweq and all the other great hoylas who have put there soul into this whould have to play these new internals too or if they don't they will not be on TT top1000 cuz 10 min added to every incompleted lev :?:

And these old hoylas who have had good positions on the TTlist for so long and retired from elma (Elbono, MGen..) will be "deleted" from elma history just cuz of new levs were added :!: :?:

There are so many nice Externals to hoyl so I can't see how anyone just can think of more internals to current elma..
Completly new version (like elma was for across) with new list maybe but..

Me in person hate internals.. but that did not affect my way of thinking and writing in this silly post :wink:

All above is my opinion of course
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Post by pedro » 29 Nov 2003, 13:51

yes but if you add new internals, wouldn't it affect your tt in the state.dat? if so everybody would have to add the same levels....
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Post by KickZ » 29 Nov 2003, 14:43

Behk wrote:It`s a nice idea and I started to make some new internals,but only got to 5.They look like internals and someone want not levs that look like internals.
homemade "look-alike" internals sucks. New internals way better,
seems like a very good idea :wink:
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Post by chux » 29 Nov 2003, 18:01

Balazs would have to make Elma 2/Across 3 for this idea to ever work...
Moposite has old across tables and new elma tables, so for there to be new internals a new game would have to be released. Then there would be Across, Elma and [new game] tables...
I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without their motives being questioned.
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Crazy
The Höylä
Posts: 1057
Joined: 20 Aug 2002, 14:38
Location: Uppsala, Sweden Hoyling: Retired

Post by Crazy » 29 Nov 2003, 20:49

hey, they're my words.. but non-greek :wink:
ARTISTRY is in the eye of the Beholder -||- TT Höylä Mission: 10.48.43 -||- Best Times: Tutorial1 -||- höylä
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milagros
Cheatless
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Joined: 19 May 2002, 17:05

Post by milagros » 30 Nov 2003, 18:37

i don't like this 'new internals' idea at all
many n00bs think that they would be able to drive some wrs... :lol:
maybe some official new pack should be released, but not internals
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KD
Kuski
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Joined: 14 Jul 2002, 11:48
Location: Szeged, Hungary

Post by KD » 1 Dec 2003, 14:08

Agree with milla, how could we spread it to everybody?
Thinking is not entertainment but an obligation! - Strugatsky bros

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