Varibles in elma?

psteve · Post by **psteve** » 29 Aug 2004, 15:35

I have tested this many times to make sure, and I think that there's some "random" element when playing elma that changes the bikes postion ever so slightly every time you play. I have once managed to get two apples on long haul by just holding down the 'up' key from before I press 'enter' to after I died. I have never been able to do this again, but I notice that each time is different.
I have tested and confirmed this on other levels. The question is: how much is this affecting hoyla kuski's, especially on shorter levels, when each time you don't know how the bike's going to run? Do you just play the same routine until it works, or do you change it slightly because it didn't work once?
Also, how accurate is the elma timer? + 0.01s?

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 29 Aug 2004, 15:50

yes it is very well known that it is a varible like that and that variable is very different on different computers, i ahve made auto levels that does work exelently at my comp but to other ppl they always die at the same place etc.

The timer is accurate. I know some ppl that have used elmatim0r ( a prog to tell time on replays with 0.001) and got some time like .04 in state.dat and with elmatim0r the replay was .039
So either its elmatim0r or elma that has some 0.001 fault variable

Please correct me if im wrong

psteve · Post by **psteve** » 29 Aug 2004, 16:16

I look at the timer when I finish and it is often different to the time recorded, by up to 0.02s. Is this because the timer freezes just as you finish the level? Even so I don't understand the difference, they should be the same. Which clock is innaccurate: recorded time or top-right time?

psteve · Post by **psteve** » 29 Aug 2004, 16:18

Hey I'm no longer beginner kuski!?! Cool.

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 29 Aug 2004, 16:18

The time u see when frame freezes is very often wrong, the time elma saves is always correct.

EasyGijs · Post by **EasyGijs** » 29 Aug 2004, 16:30

Because of this variables I could press the escape button in 3 of the 4 times before i even did something, except giving gas, at loop de loop. Sometimes the frontwheel goes to low and sometimes to high and only1 in 4 times it goes ok for perfect run. hese variables is just what makes playing elma more difficult and at some computers you will never be able to make some WR's i think.

zebra · Post by **zebra** » 29 Aug 2004, 16:47

I have also examined that thing and made a lev where you can test the 'automation' of elma:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/zebra/Autopipe.lev

Drive the lev WITHOUT PRESSING ANY KEY.

I have finished the lev as you can see, but in other computer
i don't even get the first apple.

I also figured out a very odd thing: when you drive in multiplayer that lev, both bikes act precisely the same way in a one drive. Then, at next drive, both bikes act differently from the first drive, but the same way with each other.

Also quick time can affect this, but i want you to test if you can finish this lev without pressing any key.

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 29 Aug 2004, 19:18

vsync ON:
9/10 0 apples
1/10 2 apples

Vsync OFF

3/10 0 apples
4/10 1 apples
1/10 2 apples
1/10 3 apples
1/10 4 apples

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 29 Aug 2004, 23:37

9/10: 0 apples
1/10: 1 apple

sierra · Post by **sierra** » 29 Aug 2004, 23:37

i have noticed a very strange difference when I recently changed from laptop to PC. i had been on a laptop for 2 months until now, and I think it must be the difference in screen size (for that is a very big difference) but the game, and also all replays, appeared much faster on the laptop. it was as if time itself was sped up. Now when I play on the PC i think "damn this drive is slow" but find I end up with the same times. Or I think "no way this will be a big enough jump" but I find that it is. It is very off-putting, as now I will have to spend several days or perhaps weeks adjusting to the new dynamics. It would be interesting to hear if others have experienced such a problem. Note: I think you'd have to spend quite a lot of time on the laptop to notice the difference, it may be very subtle at first.

edit -> btw on Autopipe.lev i couldn't get any apples without driving. but i did beat your time for it

psteve · Post by **psteve** » 30 Aug 2004, 02:33

Does this mean DMD's recs ARE impossible?

What if the random variable means he would hit his head in bowling 41s with the start he had, but with the ability to save/load he could do the start and then keep loading until it worked, as the r.v changed each time.

petsen · Post by **petsen** » 30 Aug 2004, 06:31

that only means that its harder to do without saveload, not impossible..

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 30 Aug 2004, 09:32

different thing causes that elma runs every time different
there is one numerical bug in elmatim0r
when time is exact (and i mean exact exact) then numerical comp bug can cause 24.00* xxxxx.xxx / xxxxx.xxx is 23.9999999999999999
i can spread fixed version..

jw · Post by jw » 30 Aug 2004, 18:42

119 tries: 98x0, 17x1, 3x2 and 1x4 apples...

Post by **SveinR** » 30 Aug 2004, 18:52

Juski wrote:vsync ON:
9/10 0 apples
1/10 2 apples

Vsync OFF

3/10 0 apples
4/10 1 apples
1/10 2 apples
1/10 3 apples
1/10 4 apples

Vsync scares me..

jaytea · Post by **jaytea** » 30 Aug 2004, 20:27

elma is a cheapy little 2d game..you cant expect its performance to be constant can you? there must be loads of factors involved, graphics card settings, processor speed, think about the calculations elma must perform to determine the trajectory of the bike at any given time? these measurements can easily be thwarted by the fluctuations in something such as processor speed

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 30 Aug 2004, 22:01

Yes that does the difference between computers! But the simpler the game the more constant it should be, but the simplier the game the easier it would be to make it a bit random if you wanted.
I think balazs should be able to answear this, anyone knows if he still cares about anything elma related??

Varibles in elma?

Varibles in elma?

Re: Varibles in elma?