The Pipe Scene - Growing or in decline?

[sierra]

Up until very recently the popularity of pipe levels, the abundance of pipe level supporters and the general well-being of the community of pipe lovers was growing speedily, reaching its peak somewhere around the time of the JoPi pipe table. Since then however it seems that pipes have become marginally less popular. The PIT tournament hosted by myself was initially very well received but interest quickly waned once it got underway. Similarly the re-release of skint0r's BaskP levels caused another small riot amongst pipers but public discussion and exhibition of this interest has not been as high as it could have been.

The forefathers of the pipe scene - Jalli, Markku, John, axxu, Jeppe, Luther - are simply not promoting the discipline with sufficient dynamism to keep it afloat. The new generation of pipers looks bleak, with pipe battles becoming more and more generic and formulaic by the day. There's almost a consensus of a conclusion with regards to pipes; there is no more creativity churning and as a consequence people feel there is not enough substance to be gained from them. The integrity and uniqueness of the pipe is disintegrating as it appears all too often in a diluted form in today's externals.

Can the pipe scene be saved? History would suggest that interest in pipes is cyclical; sooner or later there will be another milestone in the scene that will bring nostalgic old hands back into the pipe driver's seat. Just how long a hibernation period we can expect, however, is unknown.

[SveinR]

The PIT tournament hosted by myself was initially very well received but interest quickly waned once it got underway.

This is a pretty common phenomenon with regards to knockout competitions; that the interest fades as there are fewer players left to compete. Though I suppose you might talk about the decline of interest even from the initial idea to the first round started: That some players who had signed up simply did not bother to play and send in once the competition got underway, and that this continued even in the later rounds with people who were qualified. So I guess I ultimately agree with you here.

The forefathers of the pipe scene - Jalli, Markku, John, axxu, Jeppe, Luther - are simply not promoting the discipline with sufficient dynamism to keep it afloat.

I don't think most of these names are any forefathers of the pipe scene, just people who were very good at playing pipe levels. But of course, they have contributed to the pipe scene by showing recs of what is possible and thereby creating interest.

he new generation of pipers looks bleak, with pipe battles becoming more and more generic and formulaic by the day. There's almost a consensus of a conclusion with regards to pipes; there is no more creativity churning and as a consequence people feel there is not enough substance to be gained from them. The integrity and uniqueness of the pipe is disintegrating as it appears all too often in a diluted form in today's externals.

Definitely. Pipes have become so common now, I pretty much don't even think of them as "special levels", just levels in general. So, ironically, the huge interest in pipes and the following abundance of pipe levels might be the reason the interest has died.

What's needed is just a pause, I think. And those names you list, it might just be that they have grown a little tired of pipes. And after a pause, be it short or long, they might get the interest back and then we'd have the ball rolling again

This post was probably too long and it probably doesn't say anything of interest. Sorry about that, but I'm tired and can't get to sleep.

[teajay]

I really can't be sad about it, when the interest for pipe levels is declining. That's because I myself ultimately suck at them.

[Jeppe]

:I iz cuz veezay aint whineing pie balles in #battle anymoer.

[zworqy]

I really can't be sad about it, when the interest for pipe levels is declining. That's because I myself ultimately suck at them.

[sierra]

:I iz cuz veezay aint whineing pie balles in #battle anymoer.

Yea him and LaaZy used to be quite an inspiration with their nice pipe performances in #battle. For sure their inactivity has been a problem

[teajay]

Problem is highly subjective terminology here.

[The_BoneLESS]

I really don't think the pipe scene is dead, i just think people really got fed up of pipes because there was such an abundance of those kinds of level. Another thing playing against pipes is that almost no good level designers are puting efforts in pipes these days. I don't see any new pipe levels by guys like Xhomaz, John, etc...

and, also the fact that pipes always were some kinda special events in cups or there were only few available pipe levels. Now, we see so many bad pipe levels compared to the few great ones that, we get a feeling of distaste towards pipes.

I think i haven't played a pipe level for at least a month now, think i'll go play some Jopi, BaskP and Cmc's pipes...

[berhabdul]

Sierra, next very nice thing from you! For myself pipes are still very important for many players but many of them really want to play normal levels because "they dont suck at normal levels" On the other hand pipes do not seem for many players to be enjoyable and worth playing because of lack of tricks to do there and boredom shining on them. What does it mean for me? I do like pipes very much, even more than normal levels, maybe because i sometimes manage to win a balle pipe, while i would hardly ever win a normal""""" balle. But pipes as kind of levels do is very popular. Do we have ppl begging for appleharvests, headbangers, rollercoasters, gravvies, as much as they do for pipes? We [pipe community] did achieve very much. Pipes are still popular, there was PIT, there is particular sort of levels on skintatious and such. What's more there is always a pipe in World Cup (of course as well as other types of levels).
Next, we may see "elma kings" some of them claim that pipe sucks, other want to play pipes, such as Luther, Axxu and so on. I do appreciate rather those who do play them. Maybe because i prefer piping to other disciplines and i find piping relaxing. So, from my side... I won't stop playing pipes, and i don't think that pipe community is disappearing. We have only to put bigger effort on piping and learn noobs how to do so, not only by showing them some of Svein's, Axxu's and Jalli's recs but trying to explain how to do it. I personally find battle piping nice to. I have found many friends not only on #battle, who do share my opinion, like Kestas, Jp, and other who i did not mention. Anyway, greets for pipers and have great fun!

[8-ball]

Pipes became too common and boring. Who wants to play basically the same level thousands of times in #battle?

[CMc]

I sure hope that pipe levels don't decline in popularity. I'm not sure if I would play elma as much if it did. Hopefully, like Sierra said; people are starting to play pipes a bit more than they did, such as Pit, and Skint's levels and so on. I've tried myself to interest players in pipes such as the UPP pack and the PTL pack. I hope it worked. Oh well, I guess this just means that I need to start making more and more pipes in battle!!!
(sry jaytea) Max honor to you for starting this thread Sierra.

[sierra]

Samir, I really like what you have to say. What you have articulated aligns in many ways with my thoughts when I first began to really take interest in pipes.

A sort of subtle negative aspect that I feel is that most of the players who are good at pipes feel almost a sort of embarrassment about it. You never see Markku or axxu in battle saying "come on, pipe battle next", they seem to feel like noobs for playing them in the first place. Or how about MP, nobody even knew he could play pipes until WC515. Yet he never puts pipes in his levels and never voices any support or enthusiasm for them at all. Same with Luther, always bitching about pipes even though he himself was on track to win the PIT tournament. And don't even get me started on Jalli, who not only whined the entire 2 weeks of world cup pipe but was actively trying to prevent there from a being a pipe in the contest at all.

This sends confusing signals to the would-be pipe fanatic. Skilled players shy away from pipes. Reputable level makers scoff at them, and refuse to make them. People say things like "And don't worry, there won't be any pipes!" when they advertise a new contest.

If there was to be a kind of Elma establishment, and in a sense you could consider the moposite staff together with the operators on IRCnet to be a sort of establishment, I believe it would be distinctly anti-pipe. Yet we must forever continue to struggle our cause in solidarity.

If you like pipes, playing them or making them, and if you like showing off your skill in them, then hold your head high and share your pride without shame.

[Ramone]

Pipes became too common and boring. Who wants to play basically the same level thousands of times in #battle?

Exactly.

Pipe levels dont have much variation to offer. You dont find som emax nice trick to gain few seconds. And if you find this in a pipe level it is in the none-pipe-area of it.

[milagros]

Or how about MP, nobody even knew he could play pipes until WC515.

i remember he got 48-49 apples in wc414 and got some 2-5th place (i think it was 48 and 2nd place without darm, not sure though)

[Kestas]

it really must be that nowadays slightly growing popularoty of pipes and the fact that lev designers does these kind of special levels more often then in a past is killing the interest in it and as boneless said, they're just fed up of it, fed up of the same old pipe styles, same directions and a lack of tricks in it. but what do you expect from a pipe? there's nothing much you could blow out in it to anything special in new ones, becouse all kind of styles has been made like a thousand times. if ppl feel like they can't stand others effort to keep up the pipe interest in #battle and contribution at making new pipe levels for others, then why not just make some efforts yourself and not wait for the mirracle to happen by seing a pipe you havent yet seen before, instead of just sinking it yourself...? (i really respect sierra's contribution on the PIT and i'm really sorry i didnt entered it becouse i thought i have no chance to win). but lets just not hibernate yourself and wait for someone else to make a real pipe. real pipes, not real pipes, who cares if it's a 10 apple level or 50 apple level? it's still a pipe and i'm enjoying each and every one of it no matter if design or creativity is bad as long as it's still a pipe.

[J-sim]

People say things like "And don't worry, there won't be any pipes!" when they advertise a new contest.

If there was to be a kind of Elma establishment, and in a sense you could consider the moposite staff together with the operators on IRCnet to be a sort of establishment, I believe it would be distinctly anti-pipe. Yet we must forever continue to struggle our cause in solidarity.

To the first part i quoted: It's just logical that people would advertise their contest as being without pipes. Pipes are just in no way democratic for the "standard" elma player imo. Pipes are a completely different discipline than any other in elma. You can't compare pipe levels to headbangers or island levels. Pipes are their own. Sure a lot of the best pipers are also the leading players in elma generally speaking. But certainly some of the best pipers stand out in specifically this part of the game. Guys like veezay, SveinR, MJXII are among the best pipers but aren't among the best players in elma generally (don't take this the wrong way ).

The points made above also makes sense if you think there is a "anti-pipe-establishment". We all love playing elma -> we all love the feeling of trying to perfect a run in an elma level or invent a style. But are these very principal affections for the game satisfied in pipe levels? For some they surely are, but in order to get there I really think you need to have reached a certain level of skill in the pipe discipline. And it's just not in any way directly comparable to how these two feelings work in an "ordinary" elma level. To get to the point. No other type of level is so distuingished that it can be entirely ignored/hated/disliked by a large demograph of elma players. (Ok sure there are speedlevels and autolevels and the likes, but I don't think these "anti-levels" should even be brought into discussion).

To give my personal opinion: I have really really tried to figure out what the fuss about pipe levels is. I don't know if I still haven't given it enough effort but I really just can't get that nice elma feeling with a pipe level. So I'm propably a part of what Sierra calls the "anti-pipe establishment", and I don't feel bad about that. Because pipes to me are almost not elma they are something else, I might play from time to time but they won't give me any satisfaction that the "real" elma gives me.


PS: maybe I just suck as hell then ignore my post

[MagnusB]

I'm going to be as pretentious as I can here.

I like to look at it this way (my apologies if I'm inadvertantly reiterating already asserted viewpoints). Regular Elma levels (or good Elma levels, at least) necessitate a wide variety of skills, including timing, the ability to find the best possible route, the ability to plan ahead, quick thinking, and aptitude of an array of basic techniques. In short, a skilled Elma player has to be skilled in several different areas. Pipe levels require one skill: pipe driving. Granted, it's one hell of a skill to possess -- no other single faculty of the game can truly be compared to it -- but nevertheless, pipe driving remains am unvaried endeavour. Pipe leves are pretty much per definition completely linear, and therefore make little room for innovation. There's no way to improve on a record for a pipe level other than by doing the exact same thing, only faster. And while that's an admirable feat, it loses its appeal over time.

I don't mean to diminsh the utility of pipe driving, but it's my honest belief that the connection between pipe driving and regular Elma playing is tenuous at best. Quite simply, pipe driving is to Elma what solitaire is to poker. A certain skill is required, but once you have that skill it's entirely mechanical.



Actually I just hate pipes because I suck at them, but please don't burst my bubble of hyperformularization.

[SveinR]

Regular Elma levels (or good Elma levels, at least) necessitate a wide variety of skills, including timing, the ability to find the best possible route, the ability to plan ahead, quick thinking, and aptitude of an array of basic techniques. In short, a skilled Elma player has to be skilled in several different areas. Pipe levels require one skill: pipe driving.

Hmm. I'd say timing and quick thinking are two very important skills when it comes to pipe driving (the ability to plan ahead would have been also if all pipe levels were decided on the first run).

Another thing I'd like to say is the most important skill when getting a good time on a pipe level is not the sheer pipe driving, but the braking out of pipe ends.

[Juski]

I plan ahead more when playing pipes than normal levels, cause in pipes it matters much which way your head is headed when exiting a pipe, i find much less of theese kinda things in normal levels, or it just might be that i find them so natural in the normal levels i dont even notice them.

[MagnusB]

Hmm. I'd say timing and quick thinking are two very important skills when it comes to pipe driving (the ability to plan ahead would have been also if all pipe levels were decided on the first run).

Another thing I'd like to say is the most important skill when getting a good time on a pipe level is not the sheer pipe driving, but the braking out of pipe ends.

You're right, of course. Ignore that entire part of my post. My point was that pipe driving is a different kind of game than normal Elma, and that normal Elma levels require a greater amount of different skills than pipe driving. That's why I think pipe levels in the long run get more repetitive than other levels.

[berhabdul]

I think it's the same. The same bike, the same ground, similar skills (if not the same too). But wait... Do you find levels "harvests", "rollers" etc different games too? It's normal that in each type of levels you need a bit different skills. What's more there are plenty of pipes, where you do need to do bonce, hang, brutal and so on.
So,

My point was that pipe driving is a different kind of game than normal Elma, and that normal Elma levels require a greater amount of different skills than pipe driving.

I do not find this true. Neither it's different game, NOR it requires a greater amount of different skills.

[MagnusB]

I think it's the same. The same bike, the same ground, similar skills (if not the same too). But wait... Do you find levels "harvests", "rollers" etc different games too? It's normal that in each type of levels you need a bit different skills. What's more there are plenty of pipes, where you do need to do bonce, hang, brutal and so on.
So,

My point was that pipe driving is a different kind of game than normal Elma, and that normal Elma levels require a greater amount of different skills than pipe driving.

I do not find this true. Neither it's different game, NOR it requires a greater amount of different skills.

I'm generalizing. I'm not saying that all pipes are completely linear or schematic; I'm saying that they have a general tendency to be that way, moreso than most other types of levels. There are lots of excellent pipe levels out there, but the majority of them are fairly generic and, in the long run, boring.

[The_BoneLESS]

There's no way to improve on a record for a pipe level other than by doing the exact same thing, only faster. And while that's an admirable feat, it loses its appeal over time.

That's what i like about pipes, finding all the little tricks that saves you milliseconds. That's the interesting part about pipe driving, getting the closer you can to perfection. When you see Jalli's recs, the reason that you are amazed is that the replay often looks perfect.

And i think there definitly are some tricks that were never done in pipe levels, people just don't think enough. Lots of combination of usual levels tricks and pipe were never done, the only thing left to do is finding those tricks.

I like pipes and always will... therefor, i'll go play the ElmaArena pipe level!

[Kestas]

There's no way to improve on a record for a pipe level other than by doing the exact same thing, only faster. And while that's an admirable feat, it loses its appeal over time.

i think there definitly are some tricks that were never done in pipe levels, people just don't think enough. Lots of combination of usual levels tricks and pipe were never done, the only thing left to do is finding those tricks.

as boneless said pipe levels arent that plain and boring as one's who might find like they're lacking for skills in pipe levels say. some good pipe levels can offer you even more tricks then an ordinarry general level, like brutals and bounces etc. take BaskP levels for good example, those are the most enjoyable levels with not just a plain tight piping but and variety for all kind of non piping tricks.

i myself find pipes 3x much more enjoyable then general levels becouse of the runs that keeps your attension to the max, sweet tension and frustration in my body is something that pumps slight adrenaline and keeps you awake. there's no way i would beleave that some says " pipes are boring" .... some of generals i would say are.

[teajay]

Let's face it. You can't like pipes if you don't have the skill for it.

Why don't some people have the skill for it? I don't know. I tried pipes often enough, but never came to anything close like skill. When I play a normal level with a small pipe in it, it's only sheer luck when I pass it.

[berhabdul]

When I play a normal level with a small pipe in it, it's only sheer luck when I pass it.

Start piping then