Enigma Bounce

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Luther
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Enigma Bounce

Post by Luther » 15 May 2006, 10:27

This is my legit Enigma replay, and here you can comment whether or not it is a bug - why it is, and how it is. This is not the WR, but the 2nd best time in the world.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~teamice/mango/rep ... Luther.zip
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Post by berhabdul » 15 May 2006, 10:31

In my opinion it is not a bug

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Post by ap » 15 May 2006, 11:53

Yes it is.

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sierra
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Post by sierra » 15 May 2006, 11:57

Can't decide
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Post by milagros » 15 May 2006, 12:23

i find it more buggy than stini's rec
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Post by Abula » 15 May 2006, 12:35

It was pretty powerful BUT what I've experienced the alobounce (like that) can produce surprising behaviour. Actually it's pretty new area for me and I've played quite a bit recently with it. Especially in Bounce Back... let me try if I could find some sample:

Ok, I think this is a bit same: www.pulu.org/elma/28tcrick.rec

So, in my opinion: No, it's not bug bounce.
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Post by Monzterman » 15 May 2006, 12:43

This is what i said in #across

Stini's 19,16 :

[11:42] <LutherICE> Monzteman, id like your voice on lauta in teh topic then, about this :p
[11:46] <_p_> luther do you think stinis rec is bug?
[11:47] <_p_> i mean...if it is bug, is it same 'type' as yours or is it speed-enhancing? =)
[11:47] <Monzteman> YES!...from what i remember he gains more speed that normally possible
[11:48] <Monzteman> same shootout as luths
[11:48] <Monzteman> it just goes into the hill
[11:49] <_p_> wish he would publish rec (fully)
[11:49] <_p_> its not as if its secret-style lev
[11:50] <Monzteman> hes affraid that too many will complain about it
[11:50] <_p_> and speculation about legitimacy of rec is probably just as bad as actual criticism he would get.

Luthers 19,29 :

there is a wheel shootout no doubt, but im not sure it helps him.....i really wish milagros would develop that "Bounce - o - Meter" he has talked about in the past
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Post by Kopaka » 15 May 2006, 12:46

At 17,85 the backwheel moves very fast downwards and back. That's a bug in my eyes. It's not much, but still.

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Post by milagros » 15 May 2006, 12:49

wiht bounce-meter there is one main problem: what to meassure
is it the pop of the wheel, some fucntion of pop and speed, some function of pop, speed and change of the speed (some acceleration or what) or what?
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Post by Honza » 15 May 2006, 14:09

looks like normal bug..
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Post by Juski » 15 May 2006, 14:16

I dont think it looks like a bug bounce, only a powerufl bounce..
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Post by Dynamo » 15 May 2006, 14:18

milagros wrote:wiht bounce-meter there is one main problem: what to meassure
is it the pop of the wheel, some fucntion of pop and speed, some function of pop, speed and change of the speed (some acceleration or what) or what?
Should be change of speed of before bounce and after bounce imo
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Post by Honza » 15 May 2006, 14:20

that quick wheel move at 17:84 - 17:88 looks typical for bug
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Post by Boomer » 15 May 2006, 14:38

I think it's definitely a bugbounce.
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Post by anpdad » 15 May 2006, 14:40

This quick wheel move at 17:84 - 17:88 is a bug. But it isnt the type of bug which makes u fly up like mad. In 99,9% of cases this weird wheel move doesnt affect a bounce at all(ALMOST), so i'd say - NOT A BUG.
Although i dont like this bounce anyway, never possible for me to do it :)

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Post by Kestas » 15 May 2006, 15:17

i think it's definitely a bug bounce. how else could he get such a fast boost out of nowhere? simple bounces makes you jump with the appropriate speed at which you were going and this one does adds some extra speed you usually dont see in the ordinary bounces.

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Post by zworqy » 15 May 2006, 15:49

Nat bug.
milagros wrote: wiht bounce-meter there is one main problem: what to meassure
is it the pop of the wheel, some fucntion of pop and speed, some function of pop, speed and change of the speed (some acceleration or what) or what?
I guess it can be summarized to: "Is the wheel moving (rather) smoothly throughot the whole bounce?" There might be a problem with the "weird" movements of the wheel that happens sometime (like in this rec), or maybe that's just a drawing bug?
<Fihlvein> another case of zworqy-is-always-right closed i guess
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Post by Squip » 15 May 2006, 16:26

Bug bounce in my opinion
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Post by petsen » 15 May 2006, 16:34

Abula wrote:So, in my opinion: No, it's not bug bounce.

watch it slow, the wheel behaves abnormal like in any other know bug replay of any bounce, it jumps out of place..
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Post by magicman » 15 May 2006, 16:44

The wheel looks buggy, but kinda normal bounce ?
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Post by simon_labroue » 15 May 2006, 16:45

if I could watch some others alobounce replays on this level, I could put a hypothesis in thesis more ezly :)

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Post by Kopaka » 15 May 2006, 17:19

Luther do you make many bounces like this one or was this one rather lucky run. I mean if you bounce like this quite often it might not be a bug. I mean if it happens often, that is how the game is.

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Post by Cloud » 15 May 2006, 18:08

One of the weirdest bounces ever. Like Abula said an Alovolt can cause some very strange behaviour into bounces. I guess I would label this as a bug though.
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Post by sierra » 15 May 2006, 18:11

I pretty much agree with what kestas says. Fuck technicalities, fuck a bounce-meter, fuck slowing it down and analyzing how the wheel moves. Just watch the rec, the bounce really takes you by surprise and looks like a glitch.

However, two things must be considered. Firstly, Luther is an amazing player. It's possibly that I don't think this bounce was legitimate because I simply have never had the skill to do one similar. Just because a noob plays Enigma and does a sax bounce, doesn't mean that if a pro does a faster one he should be labelled 'omg bug xiit'. And secondly, Luther has an amazing Elma tune, 1000+ fps or something crazy. As anyone who has played Elma on different PCs before will know, tune makes a huge difference to the kinds of stunts you can do. I mean, I thought Uphill Battle brutalbounce was something that I just didn't understand, and could never do, but I made it almost first try when I tried on jaytea's computer. And my PR was driven on his comp, and I won't be able to beat it until I play on his comp again. So the point I'm trying to make is that maybe on Luther's computer, these kind of bounces can be done.

But it's still a very grey area and I'd like to know how "those in the know" reached their judgment.
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Post by teajay » 15 May 2006, 18:41

I just find the wheel movement a lame argument in this discussion. That being said, I can't judge this bounce properly. To me it seems he gains speed after the bounce, but doesn't the bike slow down whilst compressing?

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Post by Dynamo » 15 May 2006, 20:49

It's a bug bounce and I'm sticking to it...there was greater speed coming out of the bounce than going in...it isn't a matter of if it looks buggy...it just is a bug...imho

The bug bounce is determined by the sudden movement in the screen...play it in slow-motion and you can see that the screen 'twitches irregularly' as the wheel has finished compressing...that is what determines a bug bounce for me
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Post by Memphis » 15 May 2006, 21:15

very nice run luther but ya i agree with dynamo that looks like a bug bounce. I watched in slow motion and the wheel gets crazy for a second and in my opinion that's a bug bounce.
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Post by culinko » 15 May 2006, 22:04

small pop, but nat typical bug bounce. but hard to decide if its legit or not...

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Post by anpdad » 16 May 2006, 12:14

petsen, Memphis and others just reread my previous post. This wheel pop doesnt affect a bounce in this case.
p.s. Sierra really nice explanation to everything, max agree with u.

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Post by J-sim » 16 May 2006, 12:42

stinis is kind of easier to judge because it in no way looks like an ordinary bounce. luthers does look like an ordinary "buggish" bounce because of the wheelpop. but it surely still is questionable. but in stinis bounce he doesn't even get pressure on the hill as far as i remember, he just suddenly gets skyrocketed.

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Post by anpdad » 16 May 2006, 12:52

I always didnt get why Stini and others doesnt share their hoyla-recs with no new styles inside. Everybody knows the style they use and they still dont share. Hah this fakken noob doesnt share his rec just because he is scared that everybody will say "OBVIOUS BUG"??? It's even more cocky feeling to have such a wr then.

p.s. Lol if J-sim's words are true, then it is 100% bugbounce definetly.

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Post by dz » 16 May 2006, 15:40

I've gave up trying to figure out the limits of bug bounce. It's fun for a while but after a while you realize it's just impossible to draw a line. I don't get it why there isn't any bug patches by author of the game. It would end this endless debate.

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Post by simon_labroue » 16 May 2006, 15:52

I mean, bounces are the result of mathematical operations, that happen on this type of programs (games) and that are perhaps not willed by the author. so I consider them a bug, consider me if I'm wrong.

and the line we are trying to draw is from legal to illegal, not acceptable ones.

you mean, bug patches, in the sense that the illegal bounces should be removed? I don't exactly know the physics of the bounce, but they were once explained (please do so), but, if Balazs would be able to remove illegal bounces from occuring, I think that milagros would be able to look "in" the replay to see if the thing happened, and decide if they are abnormal or not.... I mean, the whole line would be drawable direcly by programmers :?:

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Post by milagros » 16 May 2006, 16:03

i guess balazs made it as good as he was able to
i belive it can proven mathematically proven that equations are unstable so there is no 'continuous' way to get rid of it
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Post by simon_labroue » 16 May 2006, 16:29

but what happens, mathematically, when you bug-bounce?

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Post by Stini » 16 May 2006, 17:44

I was asked to write here, but honestly I don't know what I should say.
I don't know if Luther's rec is a bug. I think I'm not the person to talk about legitimacy of bounces, if anyone is. All that I can say is that in my opinion my bounce is less buggy, but as seen in this thread, there are many opinions and no actual line between a bug and a normal bounce, so we really can do nothing but speculate. Well seriously I have nothing wise to say, BUT I made my notorious WR in Enigma 16 May 2004, so that means today is its birthday \o/. And guess what would a good way to celebrate it? Yes, that's right:

PLZ DON'T DLOAD

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Post by sierra » 16 May 2006, 17:48

Nice ride, bounce does look buggy though. Overall the rec looks perfect
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ELMA PRO wrote:does anyone else hate sierra as much as i do? search my posts to find some of his earlier arrogance revealed, and his recent posts indicate blantant "im shit-hot" ism. if someone wants to make the ASF (anti-sierra foundation) i'll put an ugly logo in my signiture

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Post by Xiphias » 16 May 2006, 17:49

Imo that's a bug bounce :? .... buggier than i had imagined it to be.
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Post by milagros » 16 May 2006, 17:59

damez, secret revealed
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Post by anpdad » 16 May 2006, 17:59

thx for sharing Stini, quite max, but..... BUG

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Post by petsen » 16 May 2006, 18:10

im on the BUG side too... sorry but the wheel makes that known move back and forth and then so much more speed than when compressing..


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Post by simon_labroue » 16 May 2006, 18:27

so remove stini's wr from the list, then put luther's time there.
and at the exact same date, in two years, we be back there in this discussion and then remove luther's one and but back the 3rd best instead :wink:

neat ride, but unless we find an intelligent enough solution, all we can do is speculate... right?

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Post by Jalli » 16 May 2006, 18:54

Luther's bounce is actually more powerful, Luther does alobounce, Stini does right volt-bounce.
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Post by Xiphias » 16 May 2006, 19:02

for me the Wheel Movement doesn't mean anything... as long as the bike doesn't get extra much speed...

But this is a BUG
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Post by Juski » 16 May 2006, 20:13

7 posts saying that bounce was a bug, and i cant really decide, the bounce looks to powerful compared to how little compression he got, i think it is exactly one the line to a bugbounce, what abuot we define that as a limit of bugbounces? :D
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Post by Crazy » 16 May 2006, 20:37

Of course it's a bug.. Still a nice ride of course, wasn't first time he made good in the other parts ;O
I've seen some luther replays with faster starts.. Best rec without buggy bounce (that I've seen) is Tor's, imo
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Post by Dynamo » 16 May 2006, 20:44

Nice rec...buggy tho =(
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Post by teajay » 16 May 2006, 21:15

Yes, it's a bugbounce. But no sense in removing wr's 2 years after.

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Post by zworqy » 16 May 2006, 21:17

Definately the most on-the-vrige-of-bug rec i have ever seen. I can't say if it's bug or not :?
<Fihlvein> another case of zworqy-is-always-right closed i guess
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Post by Jalli » 16 May 2006, 21:37

Crazy wrote:Of course it's a bug.. Still a nice ride of course, wasn't first time he made good in the other parts ;O
I've seen some luther replays with faster starts.. Best rec without buggy bounce (that I've seen) is Tor's, imo
Funny you mention Tor's as his bounce has same power as Stini's...
Stini just bounces at lower point in hill by pressing right volt...
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