The wrong evolution of level designing?

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Igge
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Post by Igge »

It's sad, cause numbers can make a nice visual touch, if used well.
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Post by berhabdul »

You can number pipes, though what might be useful in the afterbattle level analysis
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by nony »

I’ve been planning to write here since the topic was created. Unfortunately, when I had the words I didn't have the computer and when I had the computer there was no time. Nor the perfect occasion to write.

So this is about me and my levels designing experience at first and I think it all comes together at a certain point.
I started making levels in 2005, in summer.
Why In 2005 I moved out of the students' dorm to live with rent. I found a way to come to #battle so I found the very nice battles. It was indeed fun, all the time after work was spent on that. than, in time, except few occasions, there were no battles or very bad battles (that was more rare, as most of the designers were good ones). So I thought to myself (after 5 years of playing) why don't I try to press the 'editor' button. And I did and here are some of the first results (at the end of the post) - I can't find the very first level I made. This pipe-ish thing took me like 30-40 minutes to make and I remember sweating to deliver it:) I just couldn't understand how those commands work. So I started the noni.levels. Of course, shitty, some unfinishable... some vsync-ing. Most of the concepts were inside the starting polygon, with the possibility of going left or right at start. Others were small levels inside circle polygons. And so on. I made ~80 noni.levels and if of 30% were good that would amaze me.
What kept me going I just felt like I want to get to make a good level. I started learning to fiddle with the editor (funny story: nowadays, in order for me to make a level, I open another 'elastomania' folder, click the .exe, start the editor, create&test, then alt+tab to 'my computer', copy the level and move it to the 'belma' folder which I play constantly and start the balle; and all this because in my editor all the fonts are different and misplaced:(; until few weeks ago, when I still had 256 ram and not 512 as now, having 2 elmas running would make the computer reset quite often). noni47mb was accepted and played in mopobattle, so if I got zebra's ok, that meant I was on the right way. After these levels I thought to myself I got to start another series, as I definitely had some imagination to use. And so came shit.levels, now 403 <- this last one is very good. (I remember once saying that I want to make levels until hoylers appreciate them as they would a insane guy level, well, this just happened:p)

What do I do/look for in a level
(I am speaking about shit.levels, not impsy.levels or box.levels)
- well, I don't add grass. I just can't do it in editor so I gave up trying; for mopobattle I asked ALE to give me a hand, but unless I’ll make some cup level I won't sweat too much;
- then, like many others, I look for playability, a fast/ez route, polishing, alternative route/routes, smart(-ish) apples placing, a/some trick/tricks... etc. nothing special, don't want to write more about this; the main characteristic is, I reckon, by far playability – this is, as I see it, the main factor in making players appreciate your work; you do the tricks smoothly, they're both hard and spectacular, they're not obstacles and you manage to do a nice run (as opposed to the killer&trial levels);
- I test a lot and this is my main problem: it is very hard for a bad player (I’m a little more than a bad player, but not more than a medium skilled player) to make a level with good tricks; just look at those very good designers and see their TT or their skills; and that's my biggest setback, as I know I’ll never hoyl that much in order to become closer to a pro
- what I like most in a level is multistyle - getting as many styles in there, even though I know it might bring annoyance;
- bringing hoyla-pleasure to battlers(or however it's called). Well, yes, that's the feeling I look for most of all. Seeing ppl battle it, playing it for the whole time, trying styles and hoyling it to the max. I like ppl appreciating my shit:) So, normally, I would have to adapt, finding a midway for inexperienced players and pros. But I don't. Not anymore. Most of my last levels were 30-40 minutes battles, where there'd be 7-8 finishes of about 1:30-2:30:xx. Making this takes a lot of time (for me) and a looot of testing and, unfortunately, is only good for the better players. Probably that's why I started two other series, the boxes and the impsyes: both short, first is ez, second is a bit skillful but sometimes annoying.

The evolution of level designing
Nowadays, more and more players are coming to belma. Some of them start their noobish level, some start others’ levels. Most of them are focusing on playing, and not on creating a level. That’s why I feel a decline of this movement. Very good level makers rarely add a battle. But everybody’s adapting and I fear that, a few years from now, a inra or a z00xxx level will be cursed and ranked as a mediocre level. Of course, I may be pessimistic, but it’s quite hard to feel different.
Somebody said below that it all comes to everyone's taste in levels. Well, that's true, of course, but why are there bad and good levels? At the end, a level comes out as your way (which is always subjective) of seeing polygons. But when I feel that the battlers liked it, I try to continue in that direction.
I am not a person to decide whether what I played today consists of good/bad battles, but just an observer, so take all this writing just as story.

PS: just a short history:
noni1 - just found my very first level
noni9 - noobish one
noni15 - possibly unfinishable:)
noni52 - quite good hoyla
shit19 - great style here by zweq
shit91 - very good grav-multistyle-annoying lev
shit172 - some 'enclosed' multistyle shit
shit213 - I guess this is one of the first adventure-like levels I made; was very proud of it, probably zebra won it
shit280x - the very start of big adventure-ish levels
shit346 - this one helped me learn as Everybody cursed the end but loved the rest
shit350 - well, you tell me
shit394 - my all time favorite, i think:)
Don't worry, I know you won't just start dlding all this, but it's just that I want to feel my post is complete

PPS: probably this deserves another topic, since all of you are hailing (and for normal reasons) different players, but I'm not one to create it. The point of this last post scriptum is a minor hail to insguy's levels. I think that he is the best level designer, without a doubt (and without diminishing the levels' quality of zebra, jappe, umiz and many many others (well, maybe zebra is close second and after him the rest:p))

Bye!
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by teajay »

I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on this, and yes your levels have an own personality that I appreciate.
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by nony »

well, thanks, nice to you still doing quality levels:)
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Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zo3non »

I have played alot of levels in my ACROSS/Elasto Mania days. I find it very entertaining to play different kind of levels made by different kind of people. However lately - at least for a year now - I have experienced this joy clearly decreasing. I think the level creators put too much effort in making them nowadays. The level creator has already come up with the ultimate way to finish the level by over-hoyling it and placing polygons with such precision that you have to do that pushing, bouncing, volting, to attain the "ultimate ride".

My point is: The perfect ride is already forseen. And this make these levels boring.
In my opinion, the point of the game is to break records by inventing new level-specific styles and that can't be done on predictable levels. So please, stop over-hoyling levels in the process of creating them.

Agree, disagree? Lemme nouuuuuuu! :beer:

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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by teajay »

agree for the most part.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Zweq »

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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Xiphias »

totally agree... and that's why I liked the random lvls by zamppe and tj. =) hoyla/speedloop/neger lvls are boring or just plain bad
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by niN »

naah, I think that ones level should not be reflected by what the scene wants, but what you as a designer like. I've already said this before but I will say it again. If people like to make precision tricks then I think that's what they should do every now and again. If they feel like making speedloops then by all means, do it! But the problem with this scene today is that we don't encourage newcomers enough to make their own styles in levels. We tell them that their levels suck and because of that they develop a subconscious way of making levels.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zo3non »

Levels made by newcomers :beer:
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zebra »

I agree that straightforward höylä levels are sometimes boring (though they can be max fun if enough speed and flow).

But I don't agree that level designers should test their levels less: this is the same problem which we discussed in the earlier thread. If you have some luck, you might end up with a good lev, but 90% of the quickly designed levels are crap. I think the over-höyling shouldn't be a problem. At least it's not if you look at an average battle level.

If you think designer shouldn't know the best style in advance, that would lead to randomly placed polygons and some kind of apple harvests. So you think apple harvests are the best levels? And that pipe levels (best style easily seen) are the worst levels?

Btw, if you want to play a level where the best style is not known by the designer, try for example my levels OYLP28 or OYLP30 - i don't have the faintest idea about the best style in those levels :) [/advertisement]
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by bob »

i agree with zebra %100.

what are the chances of a designer making a good lev (with different, nice styles) without actually meaning it?
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Antz »

also you kill the fun of the level designing process. any cretin can place a pile of random polygons in editor and create a level. there's no enjoyment in the 2 minutes it takes to make something such.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zo3non »

Well now, let me clarify. I never said that levels with randomly placed polygons are good. Though I say that levels that are over-hoyled in the process of making them are boring to play because the ultimate ride has already been forseen, and I really mean - the ultimate ride - which in the best case can be beaten by 5 hundreds of a second. This is quickly discovered by the player, at least I feel that way. A great level in my opinion is a level you play until you puke because you can't beat your own records anymore and the next day your friend tells you he has beaten your record with 2 seconds.

Anyway, gotta check those OYLP levels :D
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Zweq »

I find those levs boring where I feel like I'm playing exactly like the designer wanted. Good (battle) lev designer would skip heavy testing aside, and possibly leave some "ok someone might find a way to do that sc" . Or notice during balle "oh shit I didn't even see that was possible".

I still prefer totally random I guess (dont remember all my past comments about this so I hope I dont look twofaced) as long as it's finishable, sure they're often crap, but at least the player gets to build the style not the designer.
+ you could get skilled making random levels, no annoying headbanging, landing on uphills, dying from speed and whatevershit people diss the most.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by FinMan »

I do the first post shit. And there was styles.

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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by klisse »

lett, randomly create food, killers, start and flower in end of design without thinking about style.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Igge »

zebra wrote: If you think designer shouldn't know the best style in advance, that would lead to randomly placed polygons and some kind of apple harvests. So you think apple harvests are the best levels? And that pipe levels (best style easily seen) are the worst levels?
I disagree. Like, yesterday i made some semi-random lev where i just made a couple of polygons in 1x zoom, placed some apples in 'strategic' places, tested one style, (saw that the other style was doable without testing) and left a third, hard style untested. - But atleast i thought it might possible with some max style and some luck. Anyway, the nabs seemed to like it, and this was one of those levels i had no idea about the best style (didnt think anyone would make the hard style), but just did some random thing, did quick check then balled.

anyway this is just an example - the latest 'random' lev i made. Just saying that it isn't that hard making a nice level out of random polys without ending up with an apple harvest and/or pipe (let's hope we'll never see that and).
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zebra »

Igge wrote:
zebra wrote: If you think designer shouldn't know the best style in advance, that would lead to randomly placed polygons and some kind of apple harvests. So you think apple harvests are the best levels? And that pipe levels (best style easily seen) are the worst levels?
I disagree. Like, yesterday i made some semi-random lev where i just made a couple of polygons in 1x zoom, placed some apples in 'strategic' places, tested one style, (saw that the other style was doable without testing) and left a third, hard style untested. - But atleast i thought it might possible with some max style and some luck. Anyway, the nabs seemed to like it, and this was one of those levels i had no idea about the best style (didnt think anyone would make the hard style), but just did some random thing, did quick check then balled.

anyway this is just an example - the latest 'random' lev i made. Just saying that it isn't that hard making a nice level out of random polys without ending up with an apple harvest and/or pipe (let's hope we'll never see that and).
As you said, you saw already the best styles in the editor - so this lev was actually a level with foreseen styles, wasn't it? Well, maybe not so höyled but anyway. About the randomness, I guess with your experience you can already design 'random' levels which after all are not so random - they are designed for elma and you see instantly the most obvious styles, whether you liked or not.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by Igge »

i did see the best style, but i did not see how it could be done. It's like you see the possibility, but youre not sure whether its possible or not, kinda like the pipe bounce. I did not think anyone would make the hardest style, hence i thought it was down to the 2 remaining styles, of which i had no clue which one was the fastest.

and another key part was the fact that i saw the style after i had made the polygons, i did not design the level according to the style, but i found the style after having made the level, hence, i'd call it a random level.
they are designed for elma and you see instantly the most obvious styles, whether you liked or not.
well, even if the possibility was kinda obvious, the style needed to actually finish was far from obvious. only 1 person made it (talli) and he made it only once.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by teajay »

It starts to get annoying when this killer style becomes the only obvious one. You can foresee many routes in levels, but not necessarily test them and tweak the vertices for those. Keep it natural.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by zo3non »

Zweq wrote:OK LETS DISCUSS IN MULTIPLE THREADS THEN INSTEAD OF HAVING ONE
Sry, I just read that first thread I and see you have alreday discussed alot of this. I gotta blame my not so frequentally visits here. :idea:
Anyway, I agree that those 2 minutes made battle levs are great.

Abula, can you please merge these 2 threads and remove things said twice. :wink: :mrgreen:

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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by niN »

zo3non wrote: Abula, can you please merge these 2 threads and remove things said twice. :wink: :mrgreen:

z
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by SveinR »

There's slightly better odds on me doing it. But don't hold your breaths.
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by teajay »

yes, we could actually try merge. Come on, let's try out these new cool features. =)
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Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels

Post by SveinR »

tijsjoris wrote:yes, we could actually try merge. Come on, let's try out these new cool features. =)
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by Mawane »

At least, we can to know which posts are from which topics:
Post subject: Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?
Post subject: Re: Pretentious level designers - predictable levels
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by FinMan »

Bump.

This is pure awesomeness for every designer. Worth reading for anyone who wants to make levels or is already making levels. The most of these posts should be quoted in EOL site or anywhere, just as tutorial for levelmaking or anything.

A thing i wanna say ontopic is that the big topic of the day, Nekff:s, are really everything else except for that you cant use many styles, max levels. There are much tricks in them, you never know what's coming up with a nekff. Surely the average skill level of the community has risen very much caused by these levels. And the best part of them is obviously that it takes barely 5 minutes to make one. The only thing negative with them is that there simply has been too much of them. And another thing, these levels usually appear as ff:s. As a shorter versions these could be normal balles as well.

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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by ville_j »

Please do not turn this topic into an endless nekff bashing/arguing topic too.
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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by Igge »

Please turn this topic into an orgy for homosexuals. I go first.

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Re: The wrong evolution of level designing?

Post by A.K.B. »

I think the scene needs a level designing or pack competition where people make a pack of levels (or single levels) in a theme and submit them, ez LOM style.

Basically, bring back LOM. Receive good levels.
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