New cheating wave

dz · Post by dz » 2 Jun 2003, 18:55

i dont know if you get blacklisted by cheating externals

Flyrre · Post by **Flyrre** » 2 Jun 2003, 22:16

Epsilon wrote:Kopaka : I uploaded http://www31.brinkster.com/tsmile/z1.zip

Where do I get the levels?

jcl · Post by **jcl** » 3 Jun 2003, 01:34

MGen might get TOP YEAH

Im very happy to see that you are playing again

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 3 Jun 2003, 08:18

Ante wrote:
Epsilon wrote:Kopaka : I uploaded http://www31.brinkster.com/tsmile/z1.zip
Where do I get the levels?

http://www31.brinkster.com/tsmile/files/lev/pipe.zip

Flyrre · Post by **Flyrre** » 3 Jun 2003, 10:56

This might be a little bit off-topic but still, OMG!

Those recs I just saw, pipe recs, must be cheated! There's no chance in hell someone can be that good, I mean, those drives make Jalli look like a n00b, nothing personal Jalli

For example, look on rec pipz07 and take a real close look on the 20:th apple and the pipe he enteres afterwards, OMG

But lets say they aren't cheated, let's just say congratz to our new f*cking 1337 pipe r0xx0r...

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 3 Jun 2003, 12:33

I think I should have put Wcup4 event 14 as a part of the contest (just temporarily) so he will finish it too...

But that could a C00L replay...don't ya think?
What do you say hib? cheat this level for us just to see the (cheating) talent !

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 3 Jun 2003, 14:24

epsilon 414 has already been driven through by milagros

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 3 Jun 2003, 19:28

Antz wrote:epsilon 414 has already been driven through by milagros

OMG OMG give link plz (sorry for the off topic)

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 3 Jun 2003, 21:45

Epsilon wrote:
Antz wrote:epsilon 414 has already been driven through by milagros
OMG OMG give link plz (sorry for the off topic)

I had it, so I oploaded -> home.no/elastomania/priv/414xxx.rec

dz · Post by dz » 6 Jun 2003, 18:12

here are the Z1 pipe contest replays i got from somewhere.

http://koti.welho.com/pkoskin2/Z1_pipe_ ... levels.zip

edit: not anymore. it's not fair to share other people's recs without their permission. they are cheated - I don't know.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 7 Jun 2003, 00:23

Actually dz if you have learned to read you would probably have noticed that a link to them was given earlier... and also for the levels

dz · Post by dz » 7 Jun 2003, 05:45

maybe, but why not give link for both replays and levels?

MopoGirl · Post by **MopoGirl** » 7 Jun 2003, 10:32

link wars

Z1 · Post by Z1 » 7 Jun 2003, 11:45

I am not a cheater, i am not Hibernatus, i don't know him and Epsilon lied, i never sent that email. Feel free to paste my real emails if it pleases you.

I am the real Z1, at least Monkeii should know it because we share an old secret. Also i played a contest that nobody else played (HOYX by Kloque), so i don't think Hibernatus would know that.

the bike seems to sometimes stop very abruptly

I brake frequently by little bits, and i brake while i keep accelerating. Other than that i don't know why you seem to see those things.

Look, it seems like i was a little hurrying with that.
Abula finally checked your replays and they're ok.
I'm so sorry if i caused you some anger..
I hope you understood the so many proofs that we had.
I just needed to wait for the final proof and i didn't. sorry again.
Now, becuase Abula isn't a close person to me and he could lie, I will
try to find another replay checker and then I'll be able to let you records
in the contest again. I really hope u understand

sorry again! Epsi

Hypocrite.

Look...I just copied the time of the replay that the game shows, and it's
almost always different in 1 milisec than the one that you see on the
screen...and it doesn't really matter.... hhmm....and, ill fux level 5 where
there is a real mistake... ok... nice from you to make a lot of records
----- Original Message -----
From: "Z 1" <zeeone42@hotmail.com>
To: <o_ashkenazi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:06 AM
Subject: PIPE contest: mistakes

> Hi,
>
> I am very happy to have so many records.
>
> But there are mistakes in your site:
>
> 01: 43.94 should be 43.96
> 02: 30.84 should be 30.85
> 04: 15.94 should be 15.93
> 05: 19.11 should be 29.12
> 06: 29.27 should be 29.29
> 07: 45.44 should be 45.45
> 09: 22.94 should be 22.95
> 11: 54.71 should be 54.70
> 12: 54.54 should be 54.53
> 13: 30.01 should be 30.00
>
> Many mistakes
>
> Z1
>
>

This is cheating for me, because if somebody is unlucky and makes a time only 0.01 better than mine he may miss the victory.

When you say my replays are so good etc. that's because you haven't played as much as i did. I now have better times that Epsilon didn't want to publish. 30 apples in impsybility easy version is what i call an amazing record.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 7 Jun 2003, 12:00

this has happened before. Accusing people for nothing. I think now after abula checked Zl's recs and they were OK, some ppl might start to think how flaming they were towards someone they dont know.

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 7 Jun 2003, 12:29

If this is true (and I don't doubt that it is), then I would like to apologize to you Z1. The only thing that really made me think that the replays were cheated was that they are so unbelievably good, I hope you won't take it personally.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 7 Jun 2003, 17:53

The appologize E-mail that I sent to him was right after Abula told me that his program told him that the replays are Ok... but Milagros says that these programs can't identify saveload anyway...so then I didn't put his records back like I promised him... I was so confused when I wrote him this E-mail...

Now, Z1 lied again in his post... How exactly he can't be a cheater? I got that E-mail from Z2 that I talked about and he says he never sent it... that's a clear lie of one of us and there is no reason for me to lie here... that's not like I wanted Z1 out of the contest... I don't care about which ppl are inside this... but when a player has 99% cheated a contest, I think it's enough to put him aside (at least temporarily, until it will be proved that he didn't)

Now, after he lied again...it's not 99%, it's 100%...

I wish you well cheating on other contests Z

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 7 Jun 2003, 17:57

epsilon how do you know it was z1 who sent you the email with z2 in it? maybe it was someone else, possibly thinking it was some fun joke or something.

MopoGirl · Post by **MopoGirl** » 7 Jun 2003, 19:01

antz wrote exactly what i was thinking after i read z1's post. it is was just some lame kuski trying to be funny.

dz · Post by dz » 7 Jun 2003, 20:51

ok so if you believe him, then it's obvious that we have a new pipe king.
abula, shouldn't you give jalli's pipe king status to z1?

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 7 Jun 2003, 21:35

Heh, I checked the IP that the Z2 mail was from... and it was from a french server like Z1's mails, but a different IP (each of z1's mails is also with a different IP), so I guess now that :
1) it's not a real ethiopian kuski
2) it's probably not a kuski trying to joke because there are no french kuskis involved in this argument except of z1.

now...

z1 wrote:I am the real Z1

heh, I never said something else... Nostrada is also the real nostrada.. but isn't he a cheater?

and also....

z1 wrote:I brake frequently by little bits

sure, but those stops we're talking about are far away from being brakes.

dz · Post by dz » 7 Jun 2003, 21:50

cuz i chang'd mi mind o..

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 7 Jun 2003, 22:15

why that clipping is good enough explanation to disqualify this guy,but not dmd ?

dz · Post by dz » 7 Jun 2003, 22:19

i haven't seen clipping dmd recs.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 8 Jun 2003, 08:19

SO IS HE CHEATOR OR NOT ??????

dz · Post by dz » 8 Jun 2003, 08:30

that's difficult to know, because if he is hib, there is a change no one can yet detect those possible cheat replays. on the other hand, milagros has his own intependent anti-cheat program.. I don't know did he checked those recs with it yet.

Juble · Post by **Juble** » 8 Jun 2003, 08:53

I don't think Z1 is Hib. And hes recs are coal.And those brakes are brakes its happened to me before.

In my opinion he is not a cheater and everyone who did accuse him should apologize.

Juble- Z1-number one fan

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 8 Jun 2003, 10:31

dmds uphill battle was famous about being weird...clipping in 3 important places. And his quick round clips on good saveload position....no one elses rec had those effects there....we studied them w/ nost...and i showed them to abu but thats not enuf. and well...we had about those 2 recs to study and surprise both had clipping

EDIT:

we had a discussion about this in #across now.. jsim cloud skint0r and some others noticed that clipping on 05dmd.rec and quick round and others.. on 05 its on 6 10 and 12 sec parts (watched in slowmo) in qr after killer/apple part.
- then jsim noticed clipping in clouds rec. So we came to conclusion i guess..that its due the big speed or bugs on hibs 1.11h ..but the clipping occured always on same part of the rec..

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 8 Jun 2003, 11:47

yeah because cloud is innocent. but let's be honest here, balazs never designed elma with the crazy stuff we have now in mind. i wonder whether bounces in general are some bug in the code, and that kind of squeezing in high speeds z1 has could very possibly imo cause something like the clipping. since i'm not a programmer i can't say for sure of course, but i think it's a possibility never the less

2fast · Post by **2fast** » 8 Jun 2003, 11:54

Everyone in #across are talking about cheating and I haven`t seen battles on #battle at least 2 days.That`s bad

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 8 Jun 2003, 12:34

sorry if i swear a bit, but
WAHT the fucking clipping???
i didn't see anything strange on those recs. i think those can be driven without cheating.
stupid to blame z1 for cheating without any proves.
JEALOUSNESS!

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 8 Jun 2003, 14:51

ok, i'll have to think about detecting hib's saveload, the only problem is that rec file is not saved in normal frame-rate
saveload can cause clipping (i haven't seen any clipping in dmd's recs, haven't seen uphill)
and btw. my wc414 rec was NOT made with saveload so don't compare those 'clipps' with saveload ones

dz · Post by dz » 8 Jun 2003, 15:24

well theres one problem with saveloaded replays; they shouldn't have any bad parts. many of us could drive many wrs with saveload.

m0nkeii · Post by **m0nkeii** » 8 Jun 2003, 15:45

fukn hell!
everyone shut up.
z1 is not hib, i can prove that
we do have a little secret from ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO
here are my points
-z1 sent in recs for my contest
-he had good times, but they were not sick, and def not cheated
-his mail was like zeeone@hotmail.com all that time ago
-i have a little secret with him, which i'm not releasing atm, which proves he is not hib

also, in #across everyone is going mental trying to find fault woth his recs. i would just like to say, after you have been fast forwardin, slowmoing, amd rewonding, the rec gets slightly fucked up. on my compy, the arms of the biker stop moving, evenm when he volts. the jerkiness could be (i'm not sayong it def is) from all this fukking woth the rec
if this is not true, then you should think of how someone who is using saveload would think. they aren;t going to save in the middle of a goddamn pipe! the rider jerks when it turns, not when he;s savloaded

finally, i think everyone owes z1 a big apology, good to see some people already doing so

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 8 Jun 2003, 16:05

i bet hibernatus not gonna be happy about this neither.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 8 Jun 2003, 20:45

Damn you ppl... it's easy for you all to switch sides when it's comfortable... you watch the recs of z1 and think he's a cheater... you hear what he has to say and then you think he's not...so plz decide you all, ok?

now m0nkeii, how many times do i have to say? so what, and i repeat, SO WHAT if Z1 is the real Z1??? Nostrada is the real nostrada too, isn't he a cheater?

Juble... how stupid is it to think he's not a cheater because the replays are cool? I don't get it... ok..let's unban nostrada from the WR table just because he's C000000L....yeah..........

look, i never said i'm sure he's hib... he can be a friend of him that got a saveload from him or just another genius french programmer that is trying to ruin the elma scene....or he's not a cheater...
of course we never proved he cheates....but we ALSO never proved he didn't... so isn't it better to keep him TEMPORARILY outside the contest until something else is proved? he's not banned forever or something....

Now, why isn't Hib participating this important argument? I'm sure he can be helpful...
oh, and also....if someone all over this forum really think he can stand the pressure and manage well this poor pipe contest, I'll be so happy to give him...

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 8 Jun 2003, 23:29

of course we never proved he cheates....but we ALSO never proved he didn't... so isn't it better to keep him TEMPORARILY outside the contest until something else is proved?

why?

Well at least i dont ever neverh play your contest if u are a prejudice like this toward other...fellow elma players. If I was #across op i would ban u temporarily from #across until you have proved you actually are epsilon and not maybe an alien from zeta reticuli. Perhaps a terrorist or secret star gate guardian. I dont like them.

but neverh mind...i wouldnt get any record at your contest so u dont lose much

EDIT: yehh..just meant to say that u seem a little prejudice, I dont know if u really arent. I know that one can have for instance 6th sense etc to be kinda absolutely sure on some thing that they sense. So if u have the vibe,u do what u want,its your site and contest. I run a contest at my site,there one can cheat if she wants for instance. Its much easier if good recs were sent in,I wouldnt have to trouble my mind.

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 8 Jun 2003, 23:35

Epsilon wrote:of course we never proved he cheates....but we ALSO never proved he didn't... so isn't it better to keep him TEMPORARILY outside the contest until something else is proved?

The answer to that question is 'no'.

Juble · Post by **Juble** » 9 Jun 2003, 02:16

Epsilon wrote: Juble... how stupid is it to think he's not a cheater because the replays are cool? I don't get it... ok..let's unban nostrada from the WR table just because he's C000000L....yeah..........

hes got posts from november 20th if i remember

And his replays are cool well arn't they

So your just scared that hes just going to be on your table and have all the records on it.

I see no clipping in the recs that i see.

Juble-Z1 number one fan.

m0nkeii · Post by **m0nkeii** » 9 Jun 2003, 03:23

epsi: was just saying that he's not hib, and if you read carfully there, i was also saying that i'm sure he didn't cheat

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 9 Jun 2003, 09:49

MagnusB wrote:
Epsilon wrote:of course we never proved he cheates....but we ALSO never proved he didn't... so isn't it better to keep him TEMPORARILY outside the contest until something else is proved?
The answer to that question is 'no'.

Yeah, it should be: untill it's proved that he cheated he's in the contest, it's that way with all other kuskis.

Kopaka - Z1 number two fan.

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 9 Jun 2003, 10:08

Juble wrote:hes got posts from november 20th if i remember

And what?

Juble wrote:And his replays are cool well arn't they

That's beside the point.

Juble wrote:So your just scared that hes just going to be on your table and have all the records on it.

Eh, I really don't think Epsilon is that stupid.

Juble wrote:I see no clipping in the recs that i see.

There's a general agreement that the clipping is there, what we're discussing is whether the clipping is an indication that saveload has been used or not.

Post by **SveinR** » 9 Jun 2003, 10:28

Epsilon wrote: of course we never proved he cheates....but we ALSO never proved he didn't... so isn't it better to keep him TEMPORARILY outside the contest until something else is proved? he's not banned forever or something....

Eh? Because you don't have proof someone doesn't cheat, they should be temporarily banned? The vast majority of elma kuskis don't have any proofs saying they don't cheat. And have you never heard of "innocent until proven otherwise"?

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 10:39

yes, but in his case it was above 90% sure that he cheated... at least in the moment I removed the records...

look ppl, if it will be eventually found that he didnt cheat... I promise to appologize to him... but right now i don't owe appologize to anyone.

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 9 Jun 2003, 10:49

Epsilon wrote:yes, but in his case it was above 90% sure that he cheated

where exactly was the proof? all there was was that clipping and the incredibility of the records, and some peoples personal opinions. since the clipping apparently prooves nothing, i don't understand where you got 90%.

Epsilon wrote:if it will be eventually found that he didnt cheat

that's absurd. if you can't prove he did cheat why the heck do you need to prove he didn't cheat to allow him back to the contest?? and how exactly do you intend to eventually proove he didn't cheat?

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 16:27

Antz wrote:where exactly was the proof?

did I talk about a proof? I guess you didn't even read my post.

Antz wrote:and some peoples

some? I think it was like the whole world who thought this... I wasn't even the one who first thought about this (I think it was Abula), I couldn't even imagine such thing... and then almost everyone jumped on this idea... eventually now all changed their mind for some reasons.

Now, any of you ppl told me that I did a bad thing, and so... But no one told me what he thinks I should do... So really, what I realy have to do now? let z1 back?

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 9 Jun 2003, 16:49

Epsilon wrote:did I talk about a proof?

saying that you were 90% sure you said you had at least some proof. no proof=0% sure. solid proof=100% sure. 90%=almost solid proof.

so lets rephrase. what evidence did you have that was strong enough to get your certainity to 90%?

and the what-to-do. you should let z1 back to the contest untill he is prooven guilty, if he any more wants to. (i don't think i would)

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 17:14

I wrote about the "proofs" and put them into a text file : http://www31.brinkster.com/tsmile/cheating.txt

eveything written there is true...

do you think milagros talked crap? i mean, if we can't trust milagros, there is nothing to play for in elma... cause probably the most of the WR table is cheated... we have to program now saveloads instead of playing...
If it is the situation.... so I really don't know how this little game took us so far...

ok, I guess I'll have to get z1's recs again and maybe he will be in but i still need to make some talks with ppl that understand more in cheating...

petsen · Post by **petsen** » 9 Jun 2003, 17:52

HTTP1.1 STATUS 403 Remote Access to this object forbidden This file cannot be directly accessed from a remote site, but must be linked through the Brinkster Member's site.

Oooops

save target as... helps a lot.... sorry

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 9 Jun 2003, 18:12

1) He's french. no known good french players today except of hib, and hib can cheat easily.
That's true, but it's far from being 'evidence'. No one had heard (much) about Zweq until he suddenly broke through, same thing with Markku. Not everyone bothers to become so involved in the scene at first, they can be just as good players still.

2) If you look close at the replays (for example at the replay to pipe05 in the 7th second), you can see s little jump in the whole thing that looks like a use of saveload.
We're discussing that here, and all evidence points towards that "clipping" is not a good indication of use of saveload.

3) We all know that no players are in the piping skills of Jalli, or at least no french ones. Jalli's times were far away from that times too.
His times and drives are indeed incredibly good, but accusing someone of cheating because they're good is just stupid.

4) Everyone that saw him said that he's cheater at the first moment.
Can't deny that, but it's not evidence.

5) Milagros response to that thing : "Sure it's hib"
I'll agree that it looked (and looks) a lot like Z1 is Hibernatus, but we have no proof. If it really is Hibernatus he could easily have kept us from finding out that. For example he didn't have to say that he was French. I wonder why I didn't think about that earlier, hmm.

6) A little later milagros explained : Hibernatus said once that he likes to cheat pipe levels, but he never sends them in. Guess, he staarted to send in now. When he saw the french flag he knew that it's him or someone connected to him.
This is suspicious indeed, but like I mentioned above, the fact that Z1 should be French is irrelevant.

7) At last, when I told Z1 on E-mail that I think he cheated, he probably understood that he's busted now and stopped sending in records (when he was sending once per 2 days before).
Wouldn't you also stop sending records to a contest if you were accused of cheating, whether you were guilty or not?