New cheating wave

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 18:47

sure that each of this things is not an evidence by itself... but when you look at all of them together it's much different...

anyway...just wanted to add... let's assume Z1 didn't cheat... so he's a superstar you know... why doesn't he give TT to us? why doesn't he speak in IRC? why didn't he participate the Wcup4? he could have easily taken the 14th event... why?

Isn't it a little bit weird? don't you think?
If I get logical answers to that paradoxes... It'll look much different... but I doubt anyone can give... even Z1 himself...

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 9 Jun 2003, 19:00

Z1 is definitely a suspicious person (:P), but I see no evidence here that justifies removing him from the contest.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 9 Jun 2003, 20:40

maybe the principles are different in Isreal and among different religional groups. Kuz as what magnusb said there , its the correct thinking for me despite how suspicious he looks.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 21:22

how exactly did you connect it to my nationality and religion?

i'll say it again now... it was maybe a too quick decision to remove him (eventhough I thought about it like a month)... and now it just happened and we can't change the past anyway... so right now the most brilliant thing to do is to not put all the records back when there is high probability taht new evidence will come each and every day...

Do you finally get what i mean? I really hope you do...

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 9 Jun 2003, 21:36

Epsilon wrote:Do you finally get what i mean? I really hope you do...

I haven't really seen that you've made the point you made now before, but well, that doesn't matter anyway. I still don't agree with you, there's nothing that indicates that new evidence will show up very soon (it might of course). Anyway, it doesn't hurt to put the records up in the meantime, does it? Provided that you still have his old times (can't see why you shouldn't), it should be relatively easy to put his times up again. Correct me if I'm wrong. If new evidence shows up, evidence that is solid enough to prove that he's cheating, you can remove the times again. Until then, the only right thing to do is to keep his times up.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 9 Jun 2003, 23:04

He did better times since then... so I guess he'll have to send the new recs and the i'll put the times again... and I will do that...

but that still doesn't say we stop here... I really think we should continue and check each thing untill we'll eventually find the TRUTH, and nothing else... cause that's what i'm looking for...
I hope you will all help and not only tell me what to do! i'm sure it wasn't so easy for you to be in my place now...

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 9 Jun 2003, 23:57

I understand that this must be quite annoying for you.
The problem is that the only way to get absolutely damning evidence is to actually watch Z1 playing, and the only conceivable way of doing that is by Z1 filming himself playing. Oh well. A statement from Hibernatus saying: a) He's not Z1 -and- b) He can not detect that the recs are cheated is good enough for me.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 10 Jun 2003, 00:31

A sentence from hib worths exactly like the sentence of mila...or even less

anyway, I thought abouu that filming thing too but it sounds so stupid to ask a kuski to do that... and if he does cheat, he'll just say he doesn't have a digital video camera that can be connected to the computer even if he has (most of the ppl don't have one so it wont sound weird)...

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 10 Jun 2003, 08:46

MagnusB wrote:5) For example he didn't have to say that he was French.

just thought to note here that you can see from persons ip adress where he is from (well not too closely but nation at least) and if it had been found out z1 was from another country than he said he was from, well, it would have been a lot more suspicous.

m0nkeii · Post by **m0nkeii** » 10 Jun 2003, 10:19

filming him is not the only option, unless i missed something
he coulkd d/l an earlier version of elma (1.11a or something), which would not have problems woith the anticheating thing. as far as i have read, the reason his recs have been proved to have been clippy is that he has used elma 1.2 on it
so anyway, he uses elma 1.11 to make a rec, and it is checked through
might help to clear a few things up

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 10 Jun 2003, 10:56

about Z1:
when i saw the list (not recs) and saw french flag in pipe contest (he said he plays them) the first thing that came into my mind was 'it's hib' so don't take this as a proof
i don't know if he is hib or not

about nostrada and EML:
nostrada is always telling me how he didn't cheat and so on so let's put things together

1. they were able to cheat with same prog as they were caught with (that doesn't mean anything)
2. those old cheated wrs had also different (various) timescale
3. prog never made any prog in any other replay and showed ts500 for nostrada and ts600/700/1000 for EML
4. exact ts was not 500 but 499.2 and that's the same as nitro sets when you set 500 (it must be done with prog similar to nitro)

so possibilities why did it happen (if he didn't cheat)
1. nostrada used prog to see replays in slo-mo and it fucked up elma.exe
....abula has the prog, tested various changes in ts but everything was always detected ok

2. nostrada has some fucked up elma.exe
...all his wrs during 2 years were found cheated and he surely used different elma.exe - 1.11a, 1.11h, 1.11hb...

3. nostrada have some crazy working computer
...why are his nowadays recs ok? (i wonder too - maybe he's not cheating anymore or found out how was it detected and made something against it...)
basic arithmetical operations can't be different in different comp (not exactly 0.4992 times different)
nitro is changing just a few numbers and it's somehow impossible

4. conspirations against nostrada
a) mgen hated him after he has beaten his steppes
b) milagros wanted to be famous:)
c) abula hated that nick deadelous and wasn't able to sleep when he saw him in the table
d) px couldn't see that some wr recs were spread
e) hib...i don't know why hates him too

))
...quite probable

Post by **SveinR** » 10 Jun 2003, 12:33

m0nkeii wrote:he coulkd d/l an earlier version of elma (1.11a or something), which would not have problems woith the anticheating thing. as far as i have read, the reason his recs have been proved to have been clippy is that he has used elma 1.2 on it

Jalli drove a .rec in elma 1.0 on one of those levs, and that .rec was also clipping (if I remember correctly).

MopoGirl · Post by **MopoGirl** » 10 Jun 2003, 13:46

onlainari wrote:maybe the principles are different in Isreal and among different religional groups.

don't piss me off, fin-boy! that has nothing, but like really _nothing_ to do with it.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 10 Jun 2003, 14:22

Israeli govt has so much trouble on making the 1st step on Isr-Pal conflict. Sharon etc cant be decisive on advancing with peace processes. Palestinian terrorist groups are not under control of those free-willing palestinians,so it is israel that has need to make the 1st steps. Now they came up with this american roadmap thing.but well.. I am just saying that you are as paranoid and denial as Sharon. So it is a direct reflection. You see a little suspiciousness on an issue and you mess it :D

OK i'm just kidding here ,but the way of life is different in different parts of the world. In some places it is good thing to eat dinner at friends place and enjoy the best and leave the not that quality food to the house owners and in some place vice versa. etc :)

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 10 Jun 2003, 14:25

Epsilon wrote:A sentence from hib worths exactly like the sentence of mila...or even less

Normally it would, but in this case I would like to hear Hibernatus say himself that he's not Z1. milagros can't really know anything about that. It's also possible that Hibernatus has a cheat that milagros's program can't detect, he already mentioned this. For those reasons a statement from Hibernatus is worth more (just in this exact case).

About the IP addresses, I checked Hibernatus's and Z1's. Some of their addresses are very similar, but that can just mean that they use the same ISP.

About the clipping, I'm getting more and more sure that it's just an effect of turning around and braking very much. It might even be caused by tuning and such (I think I've heard some people claim to have seen clipping in DarMoeD's recs).

Ikop · Post by **Ikop** » 10 Jun 2003, 15:46

onlainari wrote:Israeli govt has so much trouble on making the 1st step on Isr-Pal conflict. Sharon etc cant be decisive on advancing with peace processes. Palestinian terrorist groups are not under control of those free-willing palestinians,so it is israel that has need to make the 1st steps. Now they came up with this american roadmap thing.but well.. I am just saying that you are as paranoid and denial as Sharon. So it is a direct reflection. You see a little suspiciousness on an issue and you mess it

OK i'm just kidding here ,but the way of life is different in different parts of the world. In some places it is good thing to eat dinner at friends place and enjoy the best and leave the not that quality food to the house owners and in some place vice versa. etc

what are you talking about?
what do know about war and terorists?
do you think that israelis dont want peace with arabs?
do you think sharon dont want peace?

the problem is that palestinians dont want to agree with the fact that israel is jewish country.
you give them your finger and they take all your hand, the proof for that is campe david.
60% of the palstinians belive that teror is the way to get what they want, and it is very sad..
the bigest problem of the world is islam,
in all the places with big muslems populations there is war and suffering.
take for example chechniya in russia, bosniya, israel and pakistan

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 10 Jun 2003, 16:06

OK, let's forget now about the israeli government thing and talk about the topic again...

now, as i said earlier i decided to put z1's records back to the contest meanwhile cause it's really unproved...
now, I don't get the point of asking the suspected man (Hibernatus) if he's guilty... I mean, if it's really him and he already went so far with this, why would he admit now?
but anyway, i would like to talk to hibernatus by myself sometime...

now, i just hope mila will succeed in programming some saveload detector to put an end for this as quick as possible...

hmm... with this IP thing, yeah... me and skint0r have checked the IPs of the mails and they are really very similiar to those of hib... and this is same ISP for sure... so he didn't lie about his nationality... but we can never know now if they're the same man with IPs... that's all

Karlis · Post by **Karlis** » 10 Jun 2003, 16:24

milagros wrote:3. nostrada have some crazy working computer
...why are his nowadays recs ok?

well, he has 2 comps now, at least that's what he told but who knows

Z1 · Post by Z1 » 10 Jun 2003, 23:03

I'm glad my records are accepted again, but i want to reply to a few things.

Epsilon wrote:Now, Z1 lied again in his post... How exactly he can't be a cheater? I got that E-mail from Z2 that I talked about and he says he never sent it... that's a clear lie of one of us and there is no reason for me to lie here... that's not like I wanted Z1 out of the contest... I don't care about which ppl are inside this... but when a player has 99% cheated a contest, I think it's enough to put him aside (at least temporarily, until it will be proved that he didn't)

Epsilon wrote:Heh, I checked the IP that the Z2 mail was from... and it was from a french server like Z1's mails, but a different IP (each of z1's mails is also with a different IP), so I guess now that :
1) it's not a real ethiopian kuski
2) it's probably not a kuski trying to joke because there are no french kuskis involved in this argument except of z1.

From what i've seen so far, i'm inclined to think you'd say anything to keep me out of your contest. So i want you to prove you received that email from a French person and, if possible, from me.
Also, i want you to tell me why i would send such an email. I don't find it funny.

Epsilon wrote:toi mךme vous autre tsי veux dire

It should be "toi mÃªme, vous autres, tu veux dire", and it doesn't mean anything (yourself, you others, you mean).

Epsilon wrote:ish

It doesn't mean anything, and i don't know what french word you were trying to write.

Epsilon wrote:please cheese

Hahaha, very funny, but i don't like cheese as much as the average froggie.

Epsilon wrote:Sender : Z 2

Only the few people who got emails from me should know my name is displayed as "Z 1" instead of "Z1". I can make a quick list of the most recent ones: Antz, Abula, Epsilon. I bet on the third one, because i suppose Antz and Abula don't have Israeli letters on their keyboards. But of course it is supposed to be me, so...

dz wrote:ok so if you believe him, then it's obvious that we have a new pipe king.
abula, shouldn't you give jalli's pipe king status to z1?

Thank you, but since you seemed to think i was cheating i suppose it is ironic. You don't seem to understand that my records are easier than Jalli's. But it's not my last word, i hope i will beat him.

Epsilon wrote:sure, but those stops we're talking about are far away from being brakes.

I still don't know what you are talking about. I think you see what you want to see. I watched several other replays, and i can't see the difference with mine.

m0nkeii wrote:we do have a little secret from ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO

Late July 2002. Almost 1 year actually. But thank you very much for telling them anyway.

Epsilon wrote:3) We all know that no players are in the piping skills of Jalli, or at least no french ones. Jalli's times were far away from that times too.

It's not my fault if Jalli doesn't play your levels as much as i do.

Epsilon wrote:7) At last, when I told Z1 on E-mail that I think he cheated, he probably understood that he's busted now and stopped sending in records (when he was sending once per 2 days before).

Once per 2 days? All i know is that i've only sent 3 emails with records.
And after that:

Epsilon's email wrote:Don't think i'm adding the new records so fast...
I guess you got the message from Abula and I guess your'e really Hibernatus
as I thought.
If so, you really did an unfair thing against me, when my knowledge in Elma
cheating is really poor.
I saw a use of probably SaveLoad in one of the recs after looking some
times...
Shame on you!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Z 1" <zeeone42@hotmail.com>
To: <o_ashkenazi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:43 AM
Subject: PIPE contest: new records

> Hi,
>
> I will finish the new levels, i hope.
> Here are new records:
>
> Nickname: Z1
> Times:
>
> 01: 49.69
> 05: 26.46
> 10: 35.38
> 11: 49.82
> 14: 10 apples
> 15: 27 apples
>
> But i will finish!
>
> Z1
>

... am i supposed to send more records? Well i didn't think so, sorry. But i've played anyway, and i have new records.

Look at http://www.sunpoint.net/~tltl/piperecs.zip
The first replay is faster than mine until he dies, and if you look at the table he has 1 faster time and 2 very close ones (not anymore

). Is he another "pipe king" or will he be treated as a cheater like me?

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 11 Jun 2003, 08:34

Z1 wrote:Antz

omg you caught me!!

and also

omg lakimies iz a xheater toa!!

MopoGirl · Post by **MopoGirl** » 11 Jun 2003, 10:58

Z1 wrote:
Epsilon wrote:Sender : Z 2
Only the few people who got emails from me should know my name is displayed as "Z 1" instead of "Z1". I can make a quick list of the most recent ones: Antz, Abula, Epsilon. I bet on the third one, because i suppose Antz and Abula don't have Israeli letters on their keyboards. But of course it is supposed to be me, so...

ok, this i can explain: Epsilon got an email from z2, and the french letters apear as hebrew letters in his computer because his computer doesn't support french. this happens to us poor isrealis all the time, with finnish, russian, and pretty much every language... so now he pastes the french to his post, and the french letters, which started as actuall french letters in the sender's computer, are now turned into hebrew letters. so that's sattled.

and btw do you really think epsilon is lame enough to make up an email? PLEASE.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 11 Jun 2003, 12:48

well, it wasn't so hard to understand what is that point with "ish" (it made up 'selfish' with thw word 'yourself')...
hmm...and roni told the exact point with the hebrew letters...I was just sure that if i paste hebrew letters you see them as what they were meant to be (letters with accents)...
now, i don't have an idea who sent the Z2 e-mail but if it's some lame kuski hiding somewhere, I'm calling you to go out from your hideout and say sorry for this..

hmm... I think I was wrong telling you that this e-mail was from france cause i'm nt sure if i did check it... and I delete my e-mails after some time (sorry, no space in the inbox)

anyway, Z1 will be back to the contest untill it's proved that he's a cheater (in case he is).... and...my opinion now is...that he's maybe not a cheater...maybe...

some things i want to ask Z1 and i want him to answer in this forum :
1) What's your TT?
2) why didn't you participate Wcup4 and especially event 14?
3) why don't you come to #across so more ppl will know you? cause your'e really a king if you didnt cheat....

Juble · Post by **Juble** » 11 Jun 2003, 12:58

Epsilon wrote:3) why don't you come to #across so more ppl will know you? cause your'e really a king if you didnt cheat....

I told him how to come on #across.Hopefully he does.

I really want to know how he does it

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 11 Jun 2003, 13:06

OMFG!

you should see the new records of him... he finished kloque's sick level... let's wait to see if he finishes mine too... (I hope he will cause it's gonna be a c000000l replay

)

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 11 Jun 2003, 14:15

he has been in #across already.. via www.ircnet.com yesterday about 20minutes visit.... he'll come back ,but his phone bills gets high if he spends time there,so thats why he dont come there often and plays offline.

He apparently doesnt have total time because he dont play the "default" levels as he said. Just to notice u that this doesnt mean shit. Kimitys who had spiral wr for ages doesnt have totaltime...not finished all the levels. As well as TuA is a great player and he mite not have the besterester total. Luni same thing...etc..

2) my guess he wasnt that active with pipe levels that time.

3) well he came to #across and told a reasanoable explanation to not come there often. And about the king status. As he said himself.. if u karlis had played as much some of those pipe levels as u have played framework or HeHe or anything u hoyled...karlis would probably have many pipe records

He just showed that u can hoyl a good deal of time some pipe levels...it just messed yall heads up... Yes they look incredible because none of u ever hoyled them so hard... maybe Jalli did and he has gained status aswell. Jalli almost finished wc414 in less than week...he even didnt get to hoyl the level..

So every good hoyla can challenge this pipe guru z1 if u just get on it ..

jw · Post by jw » 12 Jun 2003, 20:35

Antz wrote: but let's be honest here, balazs never designed elma with the crazy stuff we have now in mind. i wonder whether bounces in general are some bug in the code, and that kind of squeezing in high speeds z1 has could very possibly imo cause something like the clipping. since i'm not a programmer i can't say for sure of course, but i think it's a possibility never the less

I have a (non-cheated) replay of me doing Fiulu (Hoyla Mission 12), the only thing I do is supervolting from the start and then one wheel falls through the ground. After that I tried it again, doing supervolting from the start and nothing else, but it never happens again to me, so not all the time the same things happens when you do completely the same, so even if z1 rec is clipping at a moment nobody's others rec's do, is it than proving anything? And we don't have recs of other people driving as fast and the same style as z1, do we?

dz wrote:abula, shouldn't you give jalli's pipe king status to z1?

Or let be jalli the pipe king and give z1 the TEMPORARILY-status of pipe emperor.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 12 Jun 2003, 23:08

Hmm...
It seems now that I really did a big mess of this piping, and his times are good but not so much...
Jalli prove that he can break his ones by breaking one of them and so markku did...
so after all the clipping and all the other stuff, I guess he didn't cheat and hoyled the levels a really big amount of time... and that's why I think he has done a great work, and once again... I apologize of what happened...

Ce tout!

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 14 Jun 2003, 16:56

Karlis wrote:
milagros wrote:3. nostrada have some crazy working computer
...why are his nowadays recs ok?
well, he has 2 comps now, at least that's what he told but who knows

it's quite impressive that 4*5=9.996 on his comp

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 4 Jul 2003, 14:31

OMG! OMG! OMG!
i can't look into mirror anymore
I GOT CAUGHT CHEATING BY MYSELF!!!

...i was looking for my mini tag 'wr' rec and somehow i wasn't able to find it
i remembered that i finished it on the first day right after making them
then finally i found it
and it was in the elma-cheat directory, heh

the reason why as it here is quite simple
after i make those levs i had to use cheat-elma to open corrupted lev-files
i tried to play them (i had invulnerability on) and made some nice recs
then magnus wrote that it's not possible to finish tag
i remembered that i made it but forgot that it was with cheat

it's nice rec anyway
(and btw. that hangman wasn't cheated)

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 4 Jul 2003, 15:36

milagros wrote:
it's nice rec anyway

Can we see ?

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 15 Aug 2003, 02:48

according to the other thread there is a new tide wave of cheating inside di russian scene. Nitro contest guy blazed di bad mans to start a cheat.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 6 Sep 2003, 12:42

[23:14:56] <karlizZz> well there was a guy on elastomania.cz with a nick Z1 and that happened to have same ident as mrickx, so.....good night

I think we have to get back to conversation.
Assuming karlis didnt lie when saying that... is it true? is it Z1=mrickx? is it all the e-mails from Z1 were faked to be sent from france while being sent from the czech republic? is it? or is it mirckx was just kidding with Z1's nick for some moments exactly when karlis saw him?

anyway, I really don't know what to think now. but if it's mirckx, and the replays i got were checked by abula's WR checking program, and they were ok.... omg! mirckx can cheat again now! or is he cheating at the moment with another faked nick+nationality?

(PS. is it Zweq=mrickx?

)

bob · Post by **bob** » 6 Sep 2003, 14:50

we will never know if Z1 is hib ok, and i dont think it really matters.
i think if others had the power hib does then alot, including myself, would use it to their advantage.
look at what we have come to, arguing over whether or not if there is a cheating kuski in a 2D game.
I really dont understand how you people could be so controlled by this game.

conclusion: there will ALWAYS people who try to break computer systems, programs etc. and there will ALWAYS be people complaining, just like there will always be violence in the world. just go along with it and keep doing yo thang.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 6 Sep 2003, 16:28

Epsilon wrote: and the replays i got were checked by abula's WR checking program, and they were ok.... omg!

If I could cheat that well, and did it, I wouldn't use it only for some random external contest, then I would cheat Internal WR's or something big.
Why should someone want's to cheat all the records in one single contest ???

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 6 Sep 2003, 17:01

Epsilon wrote:(PS. is it Zweq=mrickx? )

DIE YOU SHIT.
i hate you from now on, what feelings?

dz · Post by dz » 6 Sep 2003, 17:35

Weel, all we know is mrx (propably) was on irc as z1. Mabe it was a joke, I mean, all other cz players could norice it.

Epsilon · Post by **Epsilon** » 6 Sep 2003, 18:42

well, i dunno...i mentioned it could have a been a joke...
anyway, bob, i dont really get what you suggest to do now with the pipe contest... i was really happier if i could put that stupid cheating conversations aside... i was wondering several times how exactly did we get here and why am i arguing over a 2D game and cheating... but i must do something with that contest i guess... so there, help instead of telling us how weird our situation is, cause we know this already.

PS. omg zweq! dont hate me! i was kiddin ya know... sorry dude

bob · Post by **bob** » 7 Sep 2003, 00:26

leave his records, there is no proof

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 3 Aug 2004, 18:32

i went fishing today
big fishies swimming around

Post by **Abula** » 3 Aug 2004, 18:45

This wave is gone.