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Post by petsen »

ye, its very ridicoulous
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Post by Abula »

Seems like zyntifox's 1:00,04 in Ramp Frenzy has been renamed to Jokke24.rec and been spread. Jokke doesn't have his 1:00,02 replay anymore, nor do Karlis, me, psy, mr. I think we can still accept that Jokke had that WR for real. But if You have that replay please send it to me and we can be happy.
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Post by psy »

I think you shouldnt be too hard on some 0.01 statedit cheat. I'm not saying it's ok but banning forever? No way. I think ppl like Karlis can change their habits by some smaller punishment as well.

All noobs seem to be so 100% anticheat, I was at some point too. But maybe its just because you never really had to choose, never so close to have the temptation.

I just hope it wont get to the point where all the "perfect" ppl on whitelist start getting suspicious on everyone not on it..
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Post by MagnusB »

I hope you didn't take what I said about the "Hall of shame" seriously? I don't mean that we should hate everyone who's cheated and damn them to eternal hellfire-burning, or anything of the sort. I don't care that much. Like a lot of people have said, returning with a different nick isn't very hard, so banning people is pointless. All current cheated world records should be removed, and the cheaters can start all over again.
Of course, if they cheat again they will be banned.
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Post by Abula »

In that case Nostrada (if cheated) should be banned forever because this was another time for him, and EML too. mrickx did "pretty" serious cheating (I'll more later). Statedit cheaters won't be banned.
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Post by Abula »

About mrickx, he came to #across and we talked some:

- He has never had a legal WR (except some multi ones)
- His real total time is about 43 minutes
- Nostrada drove some times for him
- He cheated in WCup4
- He cheated everything after February 2002
- Hibernatus knew, he was the only one
- So other REM didn't know (except Nostarada but only those Steppes and Freefall times which Nostrada drove to mrickx state.dat)
- Tutin and Quido are mrickx's other identities (old Czech players too, mrickx misused their names)
- mrickx left the scene for one year at least
- He won't stop playing for fun
- He won't update WR stats for Moposite anymore
- mrickx tried to get dz to send dz's state to milagros or to Nostrada that they would drive nice Freefall time for him, dz didn't

All mrickx times and results will be removed on Moposite.
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Post by Xhomaz »

Abula wrote:All mrickx times and results will be removed on Moposite.
The verdict has fallen, court dismissed...
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Post by MagnusB »

We, the elma community, find the defendant......braindead........as charged. We sentence him to three consecutive deaths by woodchuck-hacking.
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Post by MP »

heheh, I thougt about the same...sound like a big crime
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Post by milagros »

dz wrote:just wondering, how long does it take to check one replay? whole time of the ride?
one dir with 100 replays in maybe 3 seconds (this prog)
other prog (not taken as a proof yet) takes more...
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Post by m0nkeii »

you should at least record the IP number for cheaters' compys

they would have to buy a new compy to get wrs
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Post by MagnusB »

What? The IP address has nothing to do with the computer, but the internet connection. Many [most] people also have dynamic IP's. It might be enough to restart their internet connection to get a new IP.
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Post by dz »

m0nkeii wrong, magnusb right. thats that, no more ip stuff pleaz ;)
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Post by onlainari »

cheaters shouldn't get any punishments. All cheated times must be erased.

Why dz\ didn't tell anyone about the stuff going on.. mrickx/nostrada/milagros driving him better time. You knew they drive times to each other? He also did a minor cheat himself too. Mrickx drove him a rec to wcup414,altough the time was very bad,but still a little cheat.

Abula is announcing new cheats in a racist way. When he announces Jokke's or Karlis' new wrong time,he continues with a question,was it a cheat or just a mistake of some kind,without having any more proof than other people's wrong times.

No one has jokke's rec of 1.00.02 or whatever and still you are accepting it. That time should be erased of course. Okay,soon you come up saying that the rec found and it is solved. Just tell me how can I trust you after you have been announcing these new wrong times with partiality.

Then this FM situation. Isn't this one pretty clear? Karlis cheated,you shouldn't be in a team that has cheated. If you are not the one in charge in that team,then you should get out of the team. Look yourself a clean team. Or stay without a team.
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Post by onlainari »

New cheat or mistake though we never will know for sure if it is a cheat or mistake because the time doesn't exist anymore in the driver's top10. Anyway:

24. Ramp Frenzy (#005) 1:00,02 by Jokke [FM] (real time is 1:00,04)

There isn't much sense to lie this time by Jokke (because he beat the WR by over 0,6) so maybe Csaba made a mistake and wrote wrong time to the table. Jokke, comments?


Edit: me and mr found old stats.txt where Jokke had 1:00,02 and zyntifox 1:00,04. So Jokke had 1:00,02 WR but no one seems to have his replay.
So your conclusion was that he sent a wrong replay to csaba? What if all players you claim statediters sent by mistake :oops: a wrong replay to csaba? If you don't take this one off ,you shouldn't take any of the 0.01-0.03 or 0.01-x.xx wrong times away. They all may have sent a wrong replay....
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Post by dz »

onlainari wrote: Why dz\ didn't tell anyone about the stuff going on.. mrickx/nostrada/milagros driving him better time. You knew they drive times to each other?
i didnt know nostra had driven times for mrickx, besides if i knew why should i tell about it anyway, it's not my business

anyhow, did have no idea anyway so thats it
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Post by dz »

onlainari wrote: Abula is announcing new cheats in a racist way. When he announces Jokke's or Karlis' new wrong time,he continues with a question,was it a cheat or just a mistake of some kind,without having any more proof than other people's wrong times.

No one has jokke's rec of 1.00.02 or whatever and still you are accepting it. That time should be erased of course. Okay,soon you come up saying that the rec found and it is solved. Just tell me how can I trust you after you have been announcing these new wrong times with partiality.
well i gotta admit that jokke cheating payed my attention, somehow i just had a tiny thought abula is kind of keeping it self evident he doesn't use state edit, also i find it kinda weird none has his replay. on the other hand, he might have just replaced his old rec with new one and maybe his teammates did the same, as they received his newer rec
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Post by onlainari »

yeah he certainly keeps it self evident and that is why he is not an authentic person.


he might have just replaced his old rec with new one and maybe his teammates did the same, as they received his newer rec
Yep,that is a good explanation for it,but that is not enough for not taking him away from the table.

He wants to be 100% sure of nostrada cheats. In this case he just says
There isn't much sense to lie this time by Jokke (because he beat the WR by over 0,6) so maybe Csaba made a mistake and wrote wrong time to the table.
So..abu u should be 100% sure one is not cheating aswell as you want to be 100% sure they are cheating if u know what i mean. Anyway i'm not wanting any percentages from you,because after all this you are not the right person to do it.
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Post by MJXII »

Isn't he? Who is, then? Don't be so grumpy just because you were caught cheat0ring :evil:
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Post by dz »

MJXII wrote:Isn't he? Who is, then? Don't be so grumpy just because you were caught cheat0ring :evil:
abu? well as far as im understood, he is not 100% sure, and onla wasn't caught now.. it was years ago or something like that... but i see his point as i said above, anyway im sure they are recearching more, that one also
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Post by onlainari »

I just wanted to play my role here once again.. to be equal.. I dislike it if Jokke's case stays a mystery. I wouldn't want to take his record away if I was unsure,aswell as not to keep it on the wr-table. In these days when ppl get caught here and there,I would choose to take it away. Otherwise it would be racist.

let's say that team FM all were from czech or some other country that is more mysterious to prejudice-boy-abula. Then comes this "cheat wave" and a player from this team cheats and tells it to public(get caught). Then appears other cheat from the same team. Both statedit cheats. Abula won't play in that team in this case. He don't have any idea what is happening in that team and that czech scene and without any questions he of course takes the record away presuming that it is same ol' statedit trick that first guy who got caught in this team did.

So obvious ...in this case it's just karlis jokke and they both play in same team as abula. But in this case he just did the opposite decision right away. Then he left the case open in a case if someone finds a proof to get him 100% not cheat, which may not happen ever.
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punishment

Post by Rigger »

How is this for punishment:

Their cheater will get all his wr's deleted from the wr list and the persons with the 2nd best times in the level will get the wr, if he can prove his time and if the replay goes clean through the test of coz. Also, the cheater will get all his ealier wr's deleted from the statistics, which then results in, that he's never had any wr's at all.
If he has wr(s) on the list that is not cheated, he will have to send them in again to get on the list.

If you need me to explain this a bit more, then plz notify me and i'll try to do a better explanation.

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Post by dz »

well it was pritty obvious, except that "send in again" -part, i doubt they have old "not cheat" wrs left anymore and it would be somewhat funny to see cheaters getting new wrs right after been caught :D
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Post by Rigger »

well, if they don't have their old replays anymore, too bad for them ... we have to be hard on the cheaters, otherwise they wont learn not to cheat.

about the last part you said ... i don't see what you mean with funny :(

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Post by onlainari »

I disagree :( I agree with Petsen instead when he says:
dont start banning ppl, cause the wr table would not be correct either they can still do wrs but are just not allowed to get on the wr table, i would feel funny if i made a wr in fx warmup .. lets say 14.03 and someon told me that nostrada has 14.01 without cheating but just isnt allowed to send it to the wr list, then my wr would NOT be a wr, and then its not fun anymore...
Kinda same thing here....the old wr's that are clean should be there...
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Post by Jokke »

onlainari wrote:So your conclusion was that he sent a wrong replay to csaba? What if all players you claim statediters sent by mistake :oops: a wrong replay to csaba? If you don't take this one off ,you shouldn't take any of the 0.01-0.03 or 0.01-x.xx wrong times away. They all may have sent a wrong replay....
That Ramp Frenzy replay wasn't among the ones Abula got from Csaba. It was found on mr's computer, but it's unclear how he got it, because I never traded that replay, so no others but my teammates at that time could have had it. The replay was renamed by mr to 24wr005J from 24Jokke, but I have always named my replays Jokkexx where xx is the level number. Also, the replay was created in May 2000 but I drove that time already in March or February 2000. I noticed still one other thing after watching that replay again, although I know it can't be used as a proof: I believe I never used that rotation move to the left at 20 secs as the driver of the replay did. I think that replay was driven by somebody else and somehow it found its way on mr's computer named 24Jokke.rec.
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Post by Abula »

onla: it's good someone trying to be opposite but you failed.

There have been about 700 WRs. I have replays of maybe 60% of them. The rest 40% are like Jokke's Ramp Frenzy. No replay and therefore we cannot be 100% sure but we still cannot remove the WRs. Maybe there are still a few cheats among those 40% but we cannot remove them all because of those few. That's why people should send me WR replays they have but I don't. I will publish the list containg the WR replays I don't have.

Me and mr have collected old stats.txts and we found two by Jokke and one by zyntifox. Jokke had 1:00,02 there and zyntifox had 1:00,04. We all know that zyntifox's replays were much more spread back then than Jokke's. Some lier just renamed zyntifox's replay and trade it to someone telling "I have Jokke's Ramp Frenzy WR replay!" and it got spread. I would call it almost a miracle that this kind of behaviour isn't too common in the scene.

We cannot know (unless Csaba remembers) if Jokke sent the correct replay to Csaba because Jokke has beaten the Ramp Frenzy WR again later and Csaba always overwrote the last replay of same player (that's why I don't have all WR replays). Anyway I don't see any reason why it wasn't the correct replay, Jokke has never had 1:00,04 in his state.dat and therefore no replays of that (maybe zyntifox's).

If we think Jokke as a cheater and will remove his time we must remove about 300 other WR records too. Realize.

About this mistake and cheat thing. I asked about a mistake in MadMan's Fruit in the Den and somewhere else (read the thread) because it was more obvious it is some kind of mistake than a cheat. When the player beat WR by 0,01-0,02 with the help of statediting (zyntifox's Flat Track and Karlis's Turnaround for example) then it's like 10 times more sure the cheated it than those where you just cheated your own record a bit better (Karlis' Gravity Ride, Totalnew's Animal Farm) and then I asked if it was a mistake. And I didn't continue Karlis' tag with a question, neither with Gravity Ride and Turnaround, read again! Only in Jokke's Ramp Frenzy and most likely I was right.

About FM and cheating member. It's same in ¿, swos , EM, TNT, ReC and many more. They all have members that have cheated and got caught. It's not your business if we have an ex-cheater in a team.

Nostrada has used statedit only twice (in WR replays I have), his cheating method is different if there is.
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Post by Rigger »

onlainari wrote:I disagree :( I agree with Petsen instead when he says:
dont start banning ppl, cause the wr table would not be correct either they can still do wrs but are just not allowed to get on the wr table, i would feel funny if i made a wr in fx warmup .. lets say 14.03 and someon told me that nostrada has 14.01 without cheating but just isnt allowed to send it to the wr list, then my wr would NOT be a wr, and then its not fun anymore...
When did i talk about banning anyone from the wr list ??
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Post by Abula »

41. Framework (#060) - 39,96 by Totalnew (real time is 39,99 and the replay is same as KingKong's WR before)
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Post by Abula »

Rigger wrote:
onlainari wrote:I disagree :( I agree with Petsen instead when he says:
When did i talk about banning anyone from the wr list ??
He didn't. onlainari doesn't agree with you, Rigger. onlainari agrees with Petsen. Got it now?
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Post by ciph »

just for the record....EM members were not "caught cheating".....mick admitted he did that time....which was not even a wr.....alright.
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Post by Rigger »

Abula wrote:
Rigger wrote:
onlainari wrote:I disagree :( I agree with Petsen instead when he says:
When did i talk about banning anyone from the wr list ??
He didn't. onlainari doesn't agree with you, Rigger. onlainari agrees with Petsen. Got it now?
yea, got it, but next time: let the person who is asked answer the question he is asked himself
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Post by Abula »

45. Sink (#052) - 33,06 by zyntifox [SC] (real time is 33,09)
Last edited by Abula on 12 Dec 2002, 09:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Abula »

8. Tag (#078) - 21,71 by Nostrada [REM] (real time is 21,73)
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Post by klisse »

Abula wrote:45. Sink (#052) - 33,06 (real time is 33,09)
--> Zyntifox
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Post by Abula »

44. Freefall (#072) - 15,25 by Nostrada [REM] (real time is 15,26)
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Re: cheating :(((

Post by DacBitch »

petsen wrote:
About that cheated list thing...
NOT a good idea! then ppl will soon hoyl for cheated wr and many more will start to cheat...
it IS a good idea. it's lot easier to find out which wrs have been cheated by looking at that list than finding them in this topic
i personally like to see who cheats and i don't think it'll be a special honour for them to see their names on tha list
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Re: cheating :(((

Post by petsen »

DacBitch wrote:
petsen wrote:
About that cheated list thing...
NOT a good idea! then ppl will soon hoyl for cheated wr and many more will start to cheat...
it IS a good idea. it's lot easier to find out which wrs have been cheated by looking at that list than finding them in this topic
i personally like to see who cheats and i don't think it'll be a special honour for them to see their names on tha list
I meant a cheated wr list wasnt good. A list of those wrs that have been cheated is ok with me, and as u said, alot easier.
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Post by DacBitch »

Abula wrote:Cheat:

8. Tag (#092) - 21,60 by mrickx [REM] (real time is 21,79)
hohohoohohoooo that's pretty fucked up!!
-0.19 sec

who will beat this??
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Post by magicman »

oh I hate cheating! :p.... so Nostrada cheated more wr's/wc4...

did he cheat all Wcup4 times?... and zyntifox..lol :P
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Post by DacBitch »

:idea:
oh yeah, i always forget to ask this:

why has Warm Up WR
14.07 Nostrada
>>>
been changed to
14.07 DarMoeD
???
8O
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Post by magicman »

hmm was'nt Nostradas rec 14.09???
then maybe he got 14.07 later...

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Post by petsen »

DacBitch wrote::idea:
oh yeah, i always forget to ask this:

why has Warm Up WR
14.07 Nostrada
>>>
been changed to
14.07 DarMoeD
???
8O
DD had 14.16 then changed name to nostrada and made 14.09 then dmd made 14.07.... am i right ?
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Post by Abula »

Code: Select all

01. Warm Up 

 1.     #001     14,37   Stikky [WwW] 
 2.     #011     14,35   BoFaIQ [KFS] 
 3.     #012     14,33   BoFaIQ [KFS] 
 4.     #018     14,30   Bjorn 
 5.     #028     14,26   zyntifox [UkC] 
 6.     #029     14,25   zyntifox [UkC] 
 7.     #030     14,24   zyntifox [UkC] 
 8.     #031     14,23   zyntifox [UkC] 
 9.     #032     14,22   zyntifox [UkC] 
10.    #033     14,21   zyntifox [UkC] 
11.    #049     14,20   zyntifox [SC] 
12.    #071     14,18   Jeppe [TER] 
13.    #074     14,17   Nostrada [REM] 
14.    #076     14,16   Nostrada [REM]
15.    #088     14,12   Nostrada [¿]         
16.    #090     14,09   Nostrada [¿]
17.    #096     14,07   DarMoeD
http://www.moposite.com/records.php?bb= ... 1.+Warm+Up
40:02,71 (151.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 11x FEM | KOM | The History of Elasto Mania (1995-2018)
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Abula
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Post by Abula »

10. Steppes - 12,15 by Elmander [TB] (real time is 12,20)
40:02,71 (151.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 11x FEM | KOM | The History of Elasto Mania (1995-2018)
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Abula
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Post by Abula »

40:02,71 (151.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 11x FEM | KOM | The History of Elasto Mania (1995-2018)
onlainari
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same old same old

Post by onlainari »

Jokke and Abula, yes,you made the story for me. Still,you don't have any proof,only the story. Yes and I don't want to say if I believe it or not,but it seems that everyone else believes you. And then about abu u there saying that I failed.. eh..of course I fail,you have already made your decisions and you can make anyone fail you want ,because you have the authority. In that Jokke thing you keep it 100% clear that his rec is missing that it's zynti's rec. Of course he can statedit 1.00.04 time off from the state.dat if he wanted too. (just saying there's no proof)
If we think Jokke as a cheater and will remove his time we must remove about 300 other WR records too. Realize.
what are you talking about ? state editers ,yes. If there really is 300 of them then yes,but I don't see your point here. Is there really 300 guys ,who you got a replay and somehow it's someone else's replay in your opinion and there has been a mistake or what the f?

I think you continued with a question on karlis' tag,but edited it..at least I think I saw it. And at that time it was only karlis and jokke if I remember correct. Maybe it was me then,but I usually don't see them wrong.


Jonas wrote:
Posted: 11 Dec 2002, 11:13 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

any cheats in the Wc4 so far?

And abula you are the nr one not chetarer and how can you still let a cheater like Karlis in your team?....I think every cheat, doesn´t matter how small should result in that those player i of the WR-table and all other big competitions....They have runied the game and it´s no more then right to kick them out of the Elma scene....

abula's indirect answer to Jonas:
About FM and cheating member. It's same in ¿, swos , EM, TNT, ReC and many more. They all have members that have cheated and got caught. It's not your business if we have an ex-cheater in a team.
haha....well in my opinion they shouldn't be kicked out,but you shuoldn't be in a same team with them, like Jonas said.
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Abula
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Post by Abula »

Seems like you didn't understand. Ok, there have been new 795 WRs in the history, they are listed here. I have 520 WR replays. 25 of those 580 are get caught of cheating (or mistakes by Csaba / PeXi), they are listed in the list (CHEAT tag). I don't have replays of 215 old WRs (Jokke's Ramp Frenzy is one of them). Each of those 215 can be a cheat, we cannot know because we don't have the replays to prove. But on the second hand we cannot say they are cheated, most likely the majority of them are not cheated, but some of them are I guess. Jokke's Ramp Frenzy can be a cheat but so can be any of those 214 other replays. Got it now?

I haven't said I believe Jokke's Ramp Frenzy isn't cheated for 100% sure. Nothing is ever 100% eventhough we have the replay, state.dat etc. But I think (it's my opinion) it's about 99% sure anyway. The facts which make me think in that way: I (and mr) have stats.txt where Jokke has 1:00,02, Jokke hasn't cheated in the past, there is no any sensible reason to statedit from 1:00,04 to 1:00,02 (it's same with Karlis Gravity too, I know).

I haven't edited the post where I mentioned Karlis' Tag. We talked in our team channel to be sure before I posted it.

onlainari: I think sometimes you are too paranoid, nothing will work if we cannot believe in anything. Don't understand wrong this.

I won't left FM, I don't sacrifice the great moments in FM which I will experience in the future just because some stupid people cheated and I have to fix their mistakes.

Edit: I'm a bit dissapointed on (?) you. You haven't noticed that actually I could cheat if I'm the only checking those WR replays (by lying of course). Solution: I send my replays to MGen, but hey then he might see some WR styles which I have used in my replays. Ok, I send my replays to PeXi (maybe he will check them during the next six months) but we both can be cheaters too. Scene is corrupted! (Just kidding.)
40:02,71 (151.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 11x FEM | KOM | The History of Elasto Mania (1995-2018)
Ambulance
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HAHAHAHA

Post by Ambulance »

Oh im dying here...So funny to see how corrupt the scene is!
About the 54.20 rec: It really is 54.22..So shoot me..I don't care.
Karlis, mrickx..ahahahah :D
All of the (2?) bumpy wr's Totalnew has had, is cheated with stateedit. On the first bumpy wr, he died b4 he touched the flower, saved the rec and used stateedit, on the other one he just edited 0.01 down...or 0,02..i don't know...Just so that's cleared up.

I really don't know what to write now..im to exited to come up with anything, but I do know one thing for sure: You will never know who is next to cheat, so it comes down to this: Is there any point in playing elma after this scandal? If there is; is there any point in playing elma after the next scandal, which im sure will come in the future? How long will it take b4 Abula and PeXi gets fed up with checking for cheats and correct all the cheats?

It seems like everybody takes away 0,01-0,03 seconds of their real time, because it can make a difference when it comes to wr's. To put it in perspective: It's like the finns that used drugs in skiing, just so they could perform that little extra that made them win.

Im done now..hahaha, this is funny! :evil:
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chux
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Re: HAHAHAHA

Post by chux »

Ambulance wrote:Oh im dying here
Abulance dying...how ironic
I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without their motives being questioned.
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