New cheating wave

Post by **Abula** » 12 Dec 2002, 20:38

Ambulance:

The future will be better because statediting isn't possible anymore and people won't use it. We are developing new programs for lists so that's not problem either.

Are you sure of those Bumpy Journeys? I have that replay where he dies but this another one seems to be correct and not statedited.

And not everybody cheats.

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 12 Dec 2002, 20:53

Ambulance wrote:So funny to see how corrupt the scene is!
...
ahahahah
...
im to exited to come up with anything
...
Im done now..hahaha, this is funny!

Great stuff huh?

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 12 Dec 2002, 20:53

the fact that ppl cheat hasn't affected my elma-playing a bit. although i don't much like the fact that so many ppl do it, i still have al my goals live and well. those are: enjoy playing elma. (yep, just that." those are" was a trick to make u expect some loong list, hehe fooled u) i do enjoy playing much. playing includes fun cruising and time hoyling. i hoyl my tt better because it gives me satisfaction to better my previous achievements.

i understand why ppl have cheated like this, but i don't much like it

. but i think prevention is more important than punishment. so no big bans from the scene etc. just make it impsyble for them to do it again.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 12 Dec 2002, 21:03

I didn't know you are so dumb.

You really think I would blame him just like that? Now think again when you say this:

I don't have replays of 215 old WRs (Jokke's Ramp Frenzy is one of them).

If you read my posts again you will notice that I'm talking about that replay you found out was a 1.00.04. So in the other hand, I'm saying that "Jokke's Ramp Frenzy is not one of them. It's that 1.00.04 replay and you created all the stories to cover it up.

I'm just little surprised though,I have seen similar stuff when you have argued with ribot. I hope u learn to read everything before posting.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Dec 2002, 21:24

timescale cheating already proven....worship me!!!

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 12 Dec 2002, 21:32

/me bows to milagros the Almighty

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 12 Dec 2002, 21:35

* Antz smites Milagros the 4llmighty.
oh well, nice job neway =). who needs hibernatus

Post by **Abula** » 12 Dec 2002, 21:44

onlainari:

If I wanted to cover something I wouldn't have told about this 1:00,04 replay.

I can edit my defination to make you happy, maybe then there are only 150 possible cheats WRs left: if we don't have a replay of some WR and we do have some other replay on same level (driven by someone else) which is 0,01-0,03 (why not even same time) worse we think the WR is cheated.

Ambulance · Post by **Ambulance** » 12 Dec 2002, 23:37

Ofcourse im sure about both Bumpy's. He did the same thing on all his wr's after his pipe wr on table #42. Im saying this because he don't play anymore, so he won't mind.

I think MagnusB is a cheater. To bad he hasn't had any wr's so that he can be caught.

And no, I can't prove it! I just *think* it..or is it more like a hope? agh!

BYE!

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 12 Dec 2002, 23:50

of course we think if that rec claims to be the rec that is missing....in this case that rec which u claim is driven by zyntifox, accidentally is named jokkexx.rec .... So is there really 150 similar cases? I don't think so..

Post by **Abula** » 13 Dec 2002, 00:02

onlainari wrote:of course we think if that rec claims to be the rec that is missing....in this case that rec which u claim is driven by zyntifox, accidentally is named jokkexx.rec .... So is there really 150 similar cases? I don't think so..

It was named 24Jokke.rec and Jokke hasn't ever used this format. Always nick for first.

Z1 · Post by Z1 » 13 Dec 2002, 00:10

Antz wrote:oh well, nice job neway =). who needs hibernatus

is/was hibernatus working for the anti-cheat team too?

Anyway, thanks a lot to milagros and mgen and abula and my mother. I enjoy reading that cheaters list, it's more fun than the WR table (just numbers).

Abula, you seem angry at Nostrada (more than others), but his last WRs were awesome and not cheated, so that proves he became wiser (or found a better way to cheat?

). I would be more angry at Mrickz since he never got a legal WR.

mg · Post by mg » 13 Dec 2002, 00:34

milagros wrote:timescale cheating already proven....worship me!!!

It seems to be quite sure, both of us detected it parallel, separately.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 13 Dec 2002, 00:57

yeh abu still no proof,how can I know he rename them like that...u can rename his all recs now to look like they were never renamed like this one was.. Then one other interesting thing is that Jokke updates a page on moposite about old wr-recs. Hehe ,quite ironic that his own old wr-rec is missing....

Antz · Post by **Antz** » 13 Dec 2002, 05:42

Z1 wrote:is/was hibernatus working for the anti-cheat team too?

no. they're just both programmers doing stuff for the elma scene..

Post by **Abula** » 13 Dec 2002, 06:23

onlainari wrote:yeh abu still no proof,how can I know he rename them like that...u can rename his all recs now to look like they were never renamed like this one was.. Then one other interesting thing is that Jokke updates a page on moposite about old wr-recs. Hehe ,quite ironic that his own old wr-rec is missing....

You must be blind. http://www.moposite.com/downloads_replays_old_wrs.php | 24. Ramp Frenzy #005-#023 1:00,02 Jokke

And in case you meant that the replay is missing in general I can say that Jokke started to update this replay section like 4 months ago which is about two years later of this WR. Some people save all their replays (Karlis and mr), when some people only the best ones (Tisk and Jokke).

I think it's better to stop this crap now. We cannot get better proofs. Even if we found the replay you would say "You drove it now". I have much better arguments that the WR isn't cheated than you against it (but hey that's just me). Is there anybody who agrees with onlainari? If you get, let's say 20 people behind you we can think this again.

I wonder why don't you claim that my old WRs are cheated. Only me has checked them and I could easily lie. That would be so much more obvious than Jokke's issue.

Current anti-cheat groups contain me, PeXi, milagros and MGen. Hibernatus was doing other projects though he has helped some in anti-cheat action too.

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » 13 Dec 2002, 10:30

Abula you said that karlis saved all his replays...how come so many of his WR replays is missing then?....donÂ´t you think he wonÂ´t send them im because they are cheated?....just a tought....but if I had cheated I would send in proof on myself..

m0nkeii · Post by **m0nkeii** » 13 Dec 2002, 10:58

i actually didn't bother to read all of the argument between onlainari and abula. i don't even know what they are saying. but i think that they should think

You are innocent until proven guilty.

Post by **Abula** » 13 Dec 2002, 12:34

Ten Karlis replays missing, yes. I don't know if he has all of them. Maybe he hasn't even checked if he has those anymore. He could and should.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » 13 Dec 2002, 12:44

"Greeting, Oh' you honorable ELMA-players of the scene"

Actually, I'm not surprised this topic came up. But reconsider: state editing is so damn unnecessary. If you can make .01 - .04 better, or whatever, doesn't matter. It's not THAT important that state-editers get caught, even though (and I know) it's thing of priciples.

One thing, the most important thing, is to catch the ones who doesn't CHANGE (or even touch) the state, but that has developed Save-Load functions and similar (which I'm convinced (ye, assumtion) some has done).

Anyone familiar with emulators? Like NES-PC and such... consider then a PC-PC emulator. Perhaps you'll figure out the new possibilities of cheating (when running ELMA in it). Not telling you how, but it CAN be done, WITHOUT changing the .dat in ANY way.

Conclusively: it's not HARD to cheat, if you REALLY want to, but most don't. Professionals don't.

I don't. I laugh at them who does, even though they might be DAMN good at ELMA, without cheating.

//Luther

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 13 Dec 2002, 12:50

M0nkeii you're right.

About the cheat or wrong replay thing, I think that if you drive a WR time you save your replay and as nickxx.rec or xxnick.rec and you can easily remember what is was called, because it's a WR and those ppl don't make evey day (maybe except DMD) so you sends the right one.

So if you sends wrong replay it's simply your own fault..

kuiva · Post by **kuiva** » 13 Dec 2002, 13:06

first i would say that the state-editing is a very serious problem and i'm very glad that now it can be detected...not only the short ones but the long tracks also r nowadays hÃ¶yled so much that cheating by 0,01-0,04 really makes the difference...

and for second i think that the 'white list' idea is very stupid and unnecessary...from black list people can see who have cheated, what and how...i think that is surely enough...of course abu could ask all the recs from few of the top players or those who have cheated in the past..but this white list goes over the line...

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 13 Dec 2002, 14:48

yeh this is stupid... but hmm why he uploaded zyntifox's rec as his own rec there?

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 13 Dec 2002, 15:13

Z1 wrote:
Antz wrote:oh well, nice job neway =). who needs hibernatus
is/was hibernatus working for the anti-cheat team too?

Anyway, thanks a lot to milagros and mgen and abula and my mother. I enjoy reading that cheaters list, it's more fun than the WR table (just numbers).

Abula, you seem angry at Nostrada (more than others), but his last WRs were awesome and not cheated, so that proves he became wiser (or found a better way to cheat? ). I would be more angry at Mrickz since he never got a legal WR.

don't be so sure

Post by **Abula** » 13 Dec 2002, 15:21

kuiva: it was just because of these cheats that for example Mick had. You think it's not serious? Well, about one second better total time can be get with that.

What cheat is more serious: Cloud and Laser's or Mick's? Mick statedited his Hang Tight personal record to 0,02 better. Cloud and Laser had times in their state.dats driven by their friend and brother under Cloud and Laser names. All of these guys had wrong total time. And there are many more players like these. We should affect to attitudes...

onlainari: maybe because he thought it was his own one? Didn't check it too accurate, I don't know.

milagros: don't be sure about what? In quotes paste only the necessary part.

Jokke · Post by **Jokke** » 13 Dec 2002, 15:24

onlainari wrote:yeh this is stupid... but hmm why he uploaded zyntifox's rec as his own rec there?

I thought it was my replay when I uploaded it, but I watched it more carefully after I saw that wr was claimed to be cheated and I noticed it's not driven the way I drove it then. Other things also caught my eye, I already told about them in my previous post.

Laser · Post by **Laser** » 13 Dec 2002, 15:58

Abula, funny that you mentioned about my times, although you didn't mention anything about one of Tisk's time that is driven by Karlis...I'm not sure if Tisk has made better already, so excuse me if I'm wrong.

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 13 Dec 2002, 15:59

What about the new blacklist. Is it already up or when is it coming? (If it is already up ,then it's my bad browser or me who cannot use it properly..)

Hmm,then I would also want to ask when all the new tables are ready?
Suggestion: A page where are links to all record pages that have changed. Or a kind of log file what been updated/changed/erased on one page. A lot of work,but then easier to look the changed tables. Maybe too much work ,but maybe someone would help abu on it..or not.
credits: To this thread & abula logging new suspicious records as they have come

Post by **Abula** » 13 Dec 2002, 17:14

Laser: no matter who I mentioned someone would be here telling the "mistake". I forgot Tisk, ok.

onlainari: now my plan is that we freeze the WR table untill Nostrada shows up (there must be some deadline though, like one month) to be absolute sure he cheated. Then I remake the tables and update the WR statistics (though I need that program that parybear was programming and I haven't seen him in 2-3 days) and write the list of removed WRs. Also I write some summary to Moposite news. Blacklist will be updated at the same time.

Post by **SveinR** » 13 Dec 2002, 17:42

Why does someone here thinks it's "fun" to see new cheat times? It's not fun, it's just sad...

Karlis · Post by **Karlis** » 13 Dec 2002, 18:18

Abula wrote:Ten Karlis replays missing, yes. I don't know if he has all of them. Maybe he hasn't even checked if he has those anymore. He could and should.

I think I've some of my old wr recs, but omg be patient, I've full time job and I saw the missing wr-recs list just a moment ago, I will send those recs as soon I've checked all my million recs

Z1 · Post by Z1 » 14 Dec 2002, 01:07

SveinR wrote:Why does someone here thinks it's "fun" to see new cheat times? It's not fun, it's just sad...

Come on, it's just a little game. And anyway i don't play internals (haven't finished the game) so those numbers on the WR table don't mean anything to me. That's why i prefer reading the cheaters list. More FUN

Karlis · Post by **Karlis** » 14 Dec 2002, 01:09

[02:08] [cArt|A] if i dont remember totaly wrong, mrickx, when he was in team BMX with me, hacked some peoples comps and stole there wr replays.. the only ones i saw was elgs bowling 1.07.xx. Have someone others heard this or am i totally wrong?

MagnusB · Post by **MagnusB** » 14 Dec 2002, 01:29

mrickx just annoys me more and more!

jcl · Post by **jcl** » 14 Dec 2002, 02:36

Are cheaters punished by removing ALL their WRs or removing CHEATED WRs only?

statedited cheats will be removed, or just corrected (if still WRs)?

Post by **Abula** » 14 Dec 2002, 04:53

Statedited WRs will be corrected, all mrickx (and Nostrada if) WRs will be removed. That's what I think now.

Mick · Post by **Mick** » 14 Dec 2002, 05:35

before we go assuming that what cartman said was right. i remember mrickx saying that elg SENT the replay to him a long time ago. back a tiny bit after stene took elg's wr on bowling. mrickx got 1,06 too, but worse than stenes.

on the other hand, i KNOW mrickx has the knowledge of how to get into someones computer because he got into my computer once and restarted it. without it showing up on my firewall too i might add.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 14 Dec 2002, 17:01

i really don't understand why did mrickx cheat sometimes
he would have wr even without it
..and if he is as good as you're talking about, he wouldn't be caught i think

nowegian, czech and slovak kuski look to be the best cheaters
aren't they the worst because they're the only once who got caught?

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 14 Dec 2002, 20:25

maybe he just had progz to cheat against those progz but now when ya came up with new progz he is caught....he could make comeback if he just wants

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 14 Dec 2002, 23:45

i've just found new way of cheating in this wc414
so all you have to do is:

1. wait for more than 5 minutes
2. die somewhere
3. save replay
4. edit lev file with time more than 5 minutes
5. send to px and tell that you finished, only rec file can't be long enough
6. win the round

great, isn's it?

Post by **Abula** » 15 Dec 2002, 02:22

That won't work because you need to prove your result by replay. So the result is the last apple you take (in the replay).

There is another cheat like thingie, you need to have two Elmas opened. Figure out the rest yourself.

Karlis · Post by **Karlis** » 15 Dec 2002, 06:35

I think I invented that one

Vaitork · Post by **Vaitork** » 15 Dec 2002, 06:42

I'm sorry 4 the ignorance...

but what the hell is the two elmas stuff? It's not that useful since you're talking about it so... What is it about?

Karlis · Post by **Karlis** » 15 Dec 2002, 06:46

nah, it not that usefull except in this wcup event where time doesn't matter so much

onlainari · Post by **onlainari** » 16 Dec 2002, 04:44

abula wrote to "Scene is corrupted?" thread

Posted: 05 Oct 2002, 22:23 Post subject:

Ribot: have you talked with dz about this. Ask him if I showed any WR replays in FEM. Wouldn't it be the same thing if I show replays for my team? Also it's much harder to be quiet about the styles in real life than in irc (I mean it would be more likely I showed WR recs in FEM than in irc to FM). If you call me a liar you also mean Karlis, mr, Jokke and Tisk are too. So many veterans and elma fanatics, pretty unbeliable if we all are lying.

Nice,I bold the text to look for. Hmm isn't Karlis just been caught of cheating? So...enough proofs to call him a liar,and as you said,I can call you now a liar too I guess :p

Posted: 06 Oct 2002, 11:55 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dz wrote:
nope, i mean why do you want cuz no one forces you to do it. i think you have just got addicted on them :roll:

abula wrote:Because there isn't anything to lose anymore so what's the problem if I watch them? Of course I enjoy watching them, isn't it pretty obvious?

Abula,u talked about checking wr-replays and you are not getting an advantage from watching them ,because you don't play internals seriously.

world top300 totaltimes:

94. Abula [FM] 44:57,17 17 November 2002

Isn't that date later than your post about not playing them seriously. I wonder what it means. I thought,if you improve your totaltime ,you have improved your internal time etc.

Post by **Abula** » 16 Dec 2002, 07:40

onla in fire.

I meant lying about FEM & showing WR replaus. Of course I can't be sure if Karlis ever lied in his (Elma) life, surely he has done that like everybody else.

I like to see new styles but not some 0,01 improvements in Double Trouble. Checking almost all WR replays is a bit different that watch the newest ones per a week.

Is it serious playing if I do one hour in a month? Everybody in the scene knows that I see the replays and are free to think that I don't belong to top300 list.

Ramza · Post by **Ramza** » 16 Dec 2002, 17:37

MCHM013 - 8,66 by freak [FRC] (real time 8,67)
MCHM019 - 9,50 by freak [FRC] (real time 9,51)
MCHM030 - 9,83 by paul [FRC] (real time 9,86)
MOPCU059 - 13,94 by Uube [ReC] (real time is 13,96)
MOPCU062 - 44,69 by zo3 [REM] (real time is 44,70)
MOPCU064 - 36,13 by Uube [ReC] (real time is 36,15)
MOPCU071 - 55,14 by Uube [ReC] (real time is 55,15)
MOPCU075 - 12,70 by zo3 [REM] (real time is 12,72)
Lost45 - 30,03 by zo3 [REM] (real time is 30,06)
MCLE016 - 53,77 by BarTek [CF] (real time is 53,78)

Will these ppl also be in blacklist?
"Improving" time by 0,01 in kinglist contests is IMO much smaller cheat than statedeiting internals WRs, and properly we (FRC members) didn't even considered it as cheat...and probably others in this list too. You don't have to send level file, only replay, and difference between time in level and replay may be even 0.03, then you can have even more advantage.
For example: my time in Hoyla04: saHHaus is 15.89, and I sent this time. But replay shows 15.87 +/- 0.01 Then I could sent it as 15.85 and have bonus 0.04, but I sent that time which was in .lev file, same as ZiuteK did, but there was an opinion that everybody are sending times to contest which are improved that way becouse it's so easy and undetectable (partially it was right), so freak and paul sent their times a little better then it was in .lev (not all) becouse they didn't want to lose advantage that other players have. Now it's seems that it wasn't good idea, and fully fair but I'm sure that they haven't considered it as cheating, they would have WRs anyway (exept 1 time) so I think they (and others from list above) shouldn't be in blacklist.
There was another reason. Rules says to tell exact time. But we weren't absolute sure which time is exact. All pointed to time in .lev but we weren't completelly sure. As I wrote above my time in H04.lev is 15.89, but replays stops at 15.87 or even 15.86 sometimes ctrl+alt+enter shows 15.87 so you may get little confused...
So please, consider it while updating blacklist and don't think about these guys and team FRC as cheaters, we are playing fair, and that new wave of cheating in internals was a shock to us all (our team total is 10th in the world and it's fully clean)

MJXII · Post by **MJXII** » 16 Dec 2002, 18:10

But they should be thought of cheaters because, duh, they cheated. If many people really did cheat and you lot then cheated just bacause it made it "more fair", you're only making a crap system even worse. But now you'll pay the ultimate price. As will anyone else who cheated in the first place. Muhaha.

Benyo · Post by **Benyo** » 16 Dec 2002, 19:08

Napoleon wrote:shit, can't believe it!
How can they save-load it?!

Please don't ansver it...

CAHLAIICNES · Post by **CAHLAIICNES** » 16 Dec 2002, 21:56

I don't see what all the fuss is about taking away old WRs and changing the tables. Who cares if it was cheated in the past, we should just try to curb cheating in the future. I don't play all about WRs. If someone beats a WR by .01 or even like .09, I don't even take notice. All I like to see is the crazy new styles that are invented and how creative people are with how they play the game. If someone cheated for a record and got away with it, I think they should have it. Like Denzel Washington in Training Day, "If they can beat the system, they deserve to be free." I think some kind of punishment makes sense, but changing ALL previous WR tables and Kinglists is just insane. That's my USA opinion.

New cheating wave

yeye

ye

"son of a preacher man"

hi

Uhh?

searched something for fun