Battletime

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Lousku
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Battletime

Post by Lousku »

Someone explain teh "too little time in balle". Simply enough, balletime is equal for all (except Kenyans with slow connection) and the goal is to make the best time you can in the time available. You might say battles need enough time to höyl the level, but how much? Look at internals. Almost any level can be höyled for years and perfect time won't be reached. So what's "höyläde enough"? As long as balletime is equal or longer than the time it takes to finish it once, there's no such thing as "too little time". If you disagree, explain why.
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Re: Battletime

Post by pawq »

<Ramone> cuz can't hoyl 1min lev in less than 60 minutes
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Re: Battletime

Post by Kopaka »

You are right to some degree. Yes battles are about finding a style you can finish well within the given timeframe. However I would argue that with lesser time it's more random who wins. When you try some style you might be lucky to finish it fast, or it might take a bit longer, meaning your time in the early minutes of a battle depends on this. Sure it depends on skills how fast you do some style well, but it is also a lot about luck wether you do the style well a run sooner or later. And with a short battletime this randomness in executing a style well is bigger, so with a short battletime it's more about who happens to have finished a good style, with a longer battletime times will be more in tune with the skills of the players.


Then ofcourse there's other factors like you'll see a better replay, your level will be played a longer period of time and a short battletime can be very frustrating if you only have time to do a very bad run.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Igge »

Isn't it obvious? Some levels are so good you want to play them more. Ofc you can play them after the battle, but that's not quite the same thing. That's all there is to it.

Thank god I don't make good levels, that way I can always put 12 mins and it's never too little)
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Re: Battletime

Post by Madness »

Too little time is when there's not enough time to even explore all the styles that are visible at first sight... It's so frustrating when you see like 5 styles you would like to try out, but the lack of time doesn't allow you to and you have to stick to one random style that looks fast enough and go with it. Then you see the winning rec slowpoked to teh max, driven with a style you didn't manage to try...
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Re: Battletime

Post by Zweq »

Personally I feel like in case my lev sucks I don't want people to waste _too much_ time waiting balle to end. Especially if it's primetime such as 18-23 CET, I feel uncomfortable putting more than 20 mins. Besides overly complex and long levs belong to cups. If lev is roughly 40 secs(optimal length) long, 20mins is easily enough. Compromises were always part of a battle, when to stop trying styles/routes, when to start höyling and so on.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Bjenn »

5 times of 10 there is too little time to hoyl, so the winar rec is simply not even hoyled, that's a shame when the battle level is good. I find it often like this and almost always hoyl it afterwards just to give a decent time to the level =)
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Re: Battletime

Post by Thundr- »

Most people hardly test their own levs (perhaps a run in editor to see that its psy, sometimes not even that) = balletime is decided upon a quick personal estimation by the levmaker.15 minutes later it turns out lev was a bit multistyler/had unexpectedly imspy tricks/was incredibly liked by everyone and the sum of the cardamum resulted in: balletime could have been longer for optimal pleasureable experience.

One reason could possiblity be that the levmaker seemingly had no clue of the possibilites of his own level, maybe because:

a) is a nab player himself and didnt think people would be that creative with styles and whatnot
b) didnt test it properly.
c) simply have a bad sense of estimation

On the other hand it seems there are split opinions what balletime should really be about. Zweq states that his levs are sux, and dont want people to waste time waiting around for next level. Others want balletime solely to be optimized in regards of the styles and time required to do a decent time/try out all styles, disregarding the quality of the level itself. Some want a mix inbetween, while others may have a totally different opinion not even stated here.

So we have levmakers potentionally being clueless + these kind of differences in opinion that makes it hard to argue about and decide what is a proper balletime for any given level. Ask the community this: "If the level is really boring and sux, should balletime be shorter even though it has some nice variety is styles?" For every single level out there people will always think differently, some will want a longer balletime some want shorter.

Different opinions will remain and is not something you can get rid of, even if the level is properly and extensively tested by the levmaker and investigated by a jury of people with great experience in levmaking and battling together. Deciding balletime will turn into a matter of chance, and you can only hope that the majority happen to have the same preferences that you do of those online at the same time
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Re: Battletime

Post by Antz »

bonus problem: Sometimes you make short level and during whole 10min balletime no-one tries fastest designed style a single time. Similar level, put 15 mins and fastest style is found after 2 min and lev gets overhoyled. It's really hard to guesstimate how quickly styles will be figured out.

Personally i think hiding balle times could improve the situation a lot for multistyle levels, as often the fastest style gets spoiled by visible time. It should definitely not always be a hoyl to death that decides who the winner is.
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Re: Battletime

Post by ville_j »

Well I think those hidden times balles are the most boring ones ever. But yes, estimating a good balle time can be quite tricky sometimes. Anyways I kind of agree with Lou-Lou here, the balle time is equal for everyone so mostly I don't care how much it is.
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Re: Battletime

Post by zebra »

Battletime defining is one part of the level making process. By defining a shorter battletime the designer can make a "cruise" battle, by defining a longer battletime the designer can make a "höylä" battle. And the battlers should take the battletime into account so that if the battletime is short, they don't even look for crazy styles. Anyway the main thing in battles is style finding. You can't overhöyl any level in 60 minutes.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Zweq »

zebra wrote:the battlers should take the battletime into account
Indeed, it's up to the player to consider the playing time and routes available and make the smartest possible compromise. It's simply part of the "battle skill".
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Re: Battletime

Post by Lousku »

Zweq wrote:
zebra wrote:the battlers should take the battletime into account
Indeed, it's up to the player to consider the playing time and routes available and make the smartest possible compromise. It's simply part of the "battle skill".
That's what I was getting at when making this topic. It was after someone failed to finish a simple level because there wasn't enough time for him to complete some megastyle.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Battletime

Post by Chris »

I think there should be enough time to in theory finish level at least 10-20 times using some obvious style. So 30 seconds level needs 10 minutes of battle time. Also you should take difficulty into account. Easy levels need less battle time.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Bludek »

I do it like this:

5-15 sec levs: 10-14 mins (in rare occasions 7-9 mins)
16-25 sec levs: 13-17 mins
26-35 sec levs: 16-19 mins (note: most of my battles are 16-35 sec levels)
36 sec-1 min lev: 17-25 mins
over one min levs: 19-30 mins

I never put more than 30 mins to a normal battle level, coz I think it takes off the presure and fun of quick online battles. I also consider time investment put into level, so if it is properly tested balle with more than one equally fast styles, I put few more minutes.

In First finish battles I try to put twice as much time than is assumed winning time (according to my opinion). When there are hard tricks I put some extra minutes too.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Orcc »

Ask Ramone how much time to put and then put half of it.
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Re: Battletime

Post by 8-ball »

i always put time based on a quick judgement of my level. a cruising 1 min level where you hardly ever die would get 20 mins but i would also put 20 mins to a 15 sec lev that seems to have some crazy hidden styles in it, even tho i hardly ever plan tricks, maybe just adjust some impsy routes to make them 'maybe possible, dunno'.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Ramone »

I dont get this. Its obv how much time to put to any battle. I never fail and I can tell proper battletime to any lev. (Normal battles that is, special battles not included). The mere fact that you cant know this for sure only tells you are nabs.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Orcc »

The jaytea is strong in this one!
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Re: Battletime

Post by Kopaka »

omfg I think the 3 designer GAA's in a row has gone to your head.
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Re: Battletime

Post by pawq »

ramone wrote:I dont get this. Its obv how much time to put to any battle. I never fail and I can tell proper battletime to any lev. (Normal battles that is, special battles not included). The mere fact that you cant know this for sure only tells you are nabs.
that sounds like you piss me off even more than usually
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Re: Battletime

Post by Madness »

In fact, ramone is one of the few who knows how much balletime is needed. When he starts a lev that looks totally bad at first sight, it usually turns out to be good just because of ample time that allows you to explore more aspects of the lev. Follow him please.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Lousku »

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Battletime

Post by Bjenn »

For the first time ever I have to say I agree to Madness. Piece out son.
I also think Ramone knows what he is talking about.
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Pab
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Re: Battletime

Post by Pab »

Often ramone battles are too long, i never play whole battle and its always enough.
It gets too heavy after 30 mins in a 40 sec lev for example, is like hoyling lab pro. but sure i understand ppl like that.
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Re: Battletime

Post by Igge »

Hoyling lab pro for hours i do all the time, however, I can never hoyl a 20 sec lev for more than 10 minutes.
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