Mysteries of the Elma Universe

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Lukazz
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Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lukazz » 22 May 2013, 21:42

after so many years i still experience elma physics issue, that i find strange. i was just crusing some random external levels and stumbled upon this lev. i drove some rounds with gas, and then stopped accelerating after some times. then i was trying how long i can keep driving the loop with just volting, no gasing. after about 5 mins i esced, because obviously you can do that forever. i've experienced similar things before, but i never really noticed that it was really possible to just keep looping with a little volting forever. it's almost perpetuum mobile-esque and feels kind of impossible.

maybe i'm a nab and everyone knows this already, but i wanted to share this story with you!

http://kopasite.net/up/2cg4bmik994v80k/chtagluk.rec
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Igge » 22 May 2013, 22:05

Very cool, but it all boils down to volting converting into a force that pushes you forward. Think of it as a skateboarder in a ramp that pushes at the end of each "wall" to gain momentum. He never has to touch the ground to get speed (or have a wheel to gas with), since he can convert downward force into forward acceleration instead
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lukazz » 22 May 2013, 22:12

good explanation, i didn't really think about that, but there's still something magic in "perfect circles" (at least it doesn't seem to work like that when the loop has more edges). just drive around the loop once or twice with gas and then do nothing, the bike is still circling the loop for about a minute before you fall down.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 22 May 2013, 22:20

It doesn't come from volting, I think Lukazz was only doing that to avoid headbang (which will happen because you just keep accelerating). Maybe better experiments with invulnerability?
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel » 23 May 2013, 00:52

ye it not the volting, look at this old nozkey level
http://jonsykkel.mooo.com/stuff/Noz0183.lev
http://jonsykkel.mooo.com/stuff/noz0183mopre.rec
works only counter clockwise and with relatively low fps
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by pawq » 23 May 2013, 01:04

jonsykkel wrote:works only counter clockwise
I find those things so hilarious :D

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Igge » 23 May 2013, 08:09

Hm yes, I was wrong I guess. Elma bike has always acted weird when confronted with very close-together vertices. Just like you can make "traps" where bike can fall through ground by making very, very small spikes, I guess the very very short distance between vertices in a eprfect circle also adds some weird physics warp to allow you to gain (or at least maintain) speed. Dunno how or why though. Maybe some v-sync-related issue. Since vsync holes can allow you to gain huge momentum, maybe tiny tiny vsync-ish spots can do the same on a much smaller scale? But it only works counter-clockwise you say? Weird)
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by abruzzi » 24 May 2013, 12:34

keep em coming and explaining at as low level as possible, i'm curious. jon? smibu? totem? domi?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Chris » 2 Jun 2013, 19:25

Igge wrote:Hm yes, I was wrong I guess. Elma bike has always acted weird when confronted with very close-together vertices. Just like you can make "traps" where bike can fall through ground by making very, very small spikes, I guess the very very short distance between vertices in a eprfect circle also adds some weird physics warp to allow you to gain (or at least maintain) speed. Dunno how or why though. Maybe some v-sync-related issue. Since vsync holes can allow you to gain huge momentum, maybe tiny tiny vsync-ish spots can do the same on a much smaller scale? But it only works counter-clockwise you say? Weird)
True. It only works from left to right for some reason. I made some little lev to illustrate the effect.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 13 Jun 2013, 03:27

Just got this impsi grip in a circle lev.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by abruzzi » 13 Jun 2013, 03:42

Check out also the circles themselves, never knew that you can enter and leave them like that.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by culinko » 13 Jun 2013, 04:07

can't bounce from the circles at all :o
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq » 13 Jun 2013, 08:20

I have some mysteries in my head that require explanation. Someones expertise is required.

First and foremost I don't understand why autolevels work differently each time even with constant timestep (limited fps), say 0.01600.... I don't buy "rounding errors" because brain says the errors should be exactly the same every ride when there is no variable. So there is another variable?

Secondly, elma is scary. Is anyone interested in proving what is theoretically optimal timestep for each frame to get the most beneficial rounding error depending on your goal. Imagine warm up for example. How do you prove what is the best timestep for 1st, 2nd, 3rd frame? 30, 33, maybe 32 ? or what about 30, 632, 132 ?

Thirdly, what about limiting fps to 100 versus playing without fpslimiter on an old smelly PC thats maximum fps is 100. On the smelly PC the fps is gonna wobble a little bit, between say 95-105, then just when bouncing the virus infected smelly PC starts internet explorer 2 on its own and fps goes down to 60. How do you/we know the possible benefits of this fps jumps between 2 frames during a critical moment?

At least first question would be nice to get good answer to. the other 2 are a bit hifi
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Grace » 13 Jun 2013, 08:59

Zweq wrote:I have some mysteries in my head that require explanation. Someones expertise is required.

First and foremost I don't understand why autolevels work differently each time even with constant timestep (limited fps), say 0.01600.... I don't buy "rounding errors" because brain says the errors should be exactly the same every ride when there is no variable. So there is another variable?

Secondly, elma is scary. Is anyone interested in proving what is theoretically optimal timestep for each frame to get the most beneficial rounding error depending on your goal. Imagine warm up for example. How do you prove what is the best timestep for 1st, 2nd, 3rd frame? 30, 33, maybe 32 ? or what about 30, 632, 132 ?

Thirdly, what about limiting fps to 100 versus playing without fpslimiter on an old smelly PC thats maximum fps is 100. On the smelly PC the fps is gonna wobble a little bit, between say 95-105, then just when bouncing the virus infected smelly PC starts internet explorer 2 on its own and fps goes down to 60. How do you/we know the possible benefits of this fps jumps between 2 frames during a critical moment?

At least first question would be nice to get good answer to. the other 2 are a bit hifi
Essentially question 2/3 are similar questions, but i feel that at it's eventual death, Question two will be where we approach with SL WRs. I've no doubt that if you individually fps each frame in WU, you could at least beat mila's 13.87, but if you do that you also need to look at times in more than 2 decimal places.

Question one - i guess it's maybe because of either imperfect fps limiting - slightly different always. Also, computer performance probably has some impact.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ville_j » 13 Jun 2013, 09:18

Zweq wrote:I have some mysteries in my head that require explanation. Someones expertise is required.

First and foremost I don't understand why autolevels work differently each time even with constant timestep (limited fps), say 0.01600.... I don't buy "rounding errors" because brain says the errors should be exactly the same every ride when there is no variable. So there is another variable?
Fps limit only sets the possible maximum fps. If set fps limit to 300, it means fps is always < 300. And the real fps depends on your computer and what other calculations it might do at the same time... so the fps is not constant even if you set the limit.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 13 Jun 2013, 10:14

Ville_J wrote:
Zweq wrote:I have some mysteries in my head that require explanation. Someones expertise is required.

First and foremost I don't understand why autolevels work differently each time even with constant timestep (limited fps), say 0.01600.... I don't buy "rounding errors" because brain says the errors should be exactly the same every ride when there is no variable. So there is another variable?
Fps limit only sets the possible maximum fps. If set fps limit to 300, it means fps is always < 300. And the real fps depends on your computer and what other calculations it might do at the same time... so the fps is not constant even if you set the limit.
But if your machine can put, say, 600 fps +-100 and you limit it to 300, won't it be constant 300? Or is the variance usually much bigger?
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ville_j » 13 Jun 2013, 10:38

Well I don't have knowledge of the actual code inside elma, but I think it has been stated many times by mila or whoever that it doesn't work like that (const fps). I thought lajk everyone already acknowledged this..
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq » 13 Jun 2013, 11:09

if it's not constant then first question is not a misteri anymore. Also new question arises: why didnt mila make it constant so autolevs would work?)
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Chris » 13 Jun 2013, 11:55

Even if vertical retrace (more or less moment when computer begins drawing new frame) is designed to be consistent event it fails, because Windows isn't real time operating system(RTOS). In other words by design it gives you no guarantee that anything will happen at exact time. Elma starts rendering when OS allocate resources to elma process. RTOS uses complex scheduling algorithms to ensure consistency and eliminate (or reduce for events that can't be predicted) latency. Why does it matter? I think because if elma renders less frames (lets say 59 instead of 60) it doesn't mean your bike is moving slower, it will just process less frames and physics will differ slightly.



edited to make it easier to understand.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Grace » 13 Jun 2013, 13:30

Zweq wrote:if it's not constant then first question is not a misteri anymore. Also new question arises: why didnt mila make it constant so autolevs would work?)
I don't know if making fps locked to a constfps value is even strictly possible, is it? At least it's probably doable to an integer level but you need more accuracy for autolevs.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel » 13 Jun 2013, 13:34

Zweq wrote:Also new question arises: why didnt mila make it constant so autolevs would work?)
i gues if you put liek constant timstep 1/100 on a pese that can only handle 50 fps he would go 0.5 sped
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Kopaka » 13 Jun 2013, 14:44

Haruhi wrote:
Zweq wrote:if it's not constant then first question is not a misteri anymore. Also new question arises: why didnt mila make it constant so autolevs would work?)
I don't know if making fps locked to a constfps value is even strictly possible, is it? At least it's probably doable to an integer level but you need more accuracy for autolevs.
Vsync on? then it's locked to monitor refresh rate.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Madness » 13 Jun 2013, 16:01

Ville_J wrote:Fps limit only sets the possible maximum fps. If set fps limit to 300, it means fps is always < 300. And the real fps depends on your computer and what other calculations it might do at the same time... so the fps is not constant even if you set the limit.
How's it with 30 fps limit then? It works differently each time as well.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ville_j » 13 Jun 2013, 16:56

Why wouldn't it be same with 30 or 300.. or 86? As I said.. limit only limits, doesn't mayke it constant.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by anpdad » 13 Jun 2013, 19:43

Hourglass, and iirc darm's sl make fps fixed at any point, so no little imperfections of your busy cpu interfere with a steady fps flow. Ez test autolevs in them and check if it's different each time and whether it depends on some rng somewhere in the code or nat. Go figure.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 13 Jun 2013, 20:42

Could turn this into politics discussion by considering why physics have to stay unchanged in Elma 2. Wouldn't it simply decrease randomness to fix fps dependency?
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Chris » 14 Jun 2013, 01:51

I don't think Elma 2 should desperately aim to recreate every aspect of original Elma experience. Just because some people want to use the same WR table for Elma and Elma 2 we shouldn't add new features or fix bugs? Why should we use the same table? I believe the main purpose of Elma 2 is to make it easier for developers to add new features by ditching old code that is hard to maintain.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ville_j » 14 Jun 2013, 08:15

This is getting a bit off topic, but for me the Elma 2 project is about developing new features around the game, not the gameplay itself (like left alo or such). However, this fps thing is very hard topic and I don't really have an opinion whether it should be changed to work differently... but I wouldn't be sad at all if we just implemented same kind of fps limiter as we have now, because it would be exactly the same as it has always been.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Madness » 14 Jun 2013, 15:14

Ville_J wrote:Why wouldn't it be same with 30 or 300.. or 86? As I said.. limit only limits, doesn't mayke it constant.
Well, 30 fps is the minimum. If it runs at a lower fps, the physics should remain the same as with 30 fps, or am I wrong?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Bjenn » 14 Jun 2013, 15:31

Madness wrote:
Ville_J wrote:Why wouldn't it be same with 30 or 300.. or 86? As I said.. limit only limits, doesn't mayke it constant.
Well, 30 fps is the minimum. If it runs at a lower fps, the physics should remain the same as with 30 fps, or am I wrong?
I would guess that that's only the limit in eolconf, which is set by mila.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Tigro » 14 Jun 2013, 15:53

I wonder how would it look at 1-2 fps play. Maybe uber speed boost at straight levels?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Madness » 14 Jun 2013, 16:12

Bjenn: I doubt it...
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel » 14 Jun 2013, 16:12

Bjenn wrote:
Madness wrote:
Ville_J wrote:Why wouldn't it be same with 30 or 300.. or 86? As I said.. limit only limits, doesn't mayke it constant.
Well, 30 fps is the minimum. If it runs at a lower fps, the physics should remain the same as with 30 fps, or am I wrong?
I would guess that that's only the limit in eolconf, which is set by mila.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ville_j » 14 Jun 2013, 16:47

I don't know how it works, but as we all know smibu extracted the physics from elma and that command line tool (and elma 1.11a exe with fast physics emulation) produce exactly the same replay every time so the variance does not come from the physics code itself.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Smibu » 14 Jun 2013, 17:42

The "randomness" occurs because the timestep parameter that is passed in the physics function is not constant. EOL's FPS limiter doesn't make it constant; it just gives it a maximum value somehow (I have not looked how it functions exactly).
Tigro wrote:I wonder how would it look at 1-2 fps play.
If the FPS is lowered too much (i.e. the timestep is increased), the physics engine becomes unstable (the bike immediately starts juddering) and very soon you get internal error. I've tested this with Elma 2.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq » 14 Jun 2013, 18:05

oke smibu. Another random note: seems strange that autolevs still dont work the same way always when you limit FPS to 30 on a PC that can run 900 fps. It's like it still drops under 30fps in some frames. Common sense would say that the timestep stays 'constant' 0.0333 or whatever
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 17 Aug 2013, 02:42

oke this not really a mystery but you cane go "through" a polygon by just turning

http://elmaonline.net/battles/57483
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Igge » 17 Aug 2013, 12:19

I made a similar lev back in belma. I found I could be quite consistent in getting the turn right on time, but all players in balle just spammed turn and hoped for the best. Looked funny)
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by badyl » 4 Sep 2013, 10:33

Check this out. You can go exacly through polygon if only the pie has exact size as the wheels. Explain!
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 4 Nov 2013, 12:33

Unusual bug at 19s. Wheel goes partly inside ground on a flat line and returns to norm.

niN ja edit: now that I noticed it, it seems to happen pretty often. Maybe not so strongly though.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Igge » 4 Nov 2013, 20:52

what fps? beisik in low fps at least.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 4 Nov 2013, 21:59

60. Ye, hardly worth sharing here. :d
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by A.K.B. » 8 Nov 2013, 05:13

I made a rec once, where I actually passed the entire bike through the wall and survived. Head and all. It used to be on elmasite, and I might have it floating around...

Aha! Just found it. Insane... someone explain...
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by badyl » 8 Nov 2013, 12:37

Ez explanation: You used turn at the moment of going through the wall and head position changed instantly. The bike was rotating which caused the head wasn't at the middle of the bike and at the moment of turning it went instantly from left to right.
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Chris
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Chris » 8 Dec 2013, 20:18

Open this lev in elma editor, check topology, go play and explain.
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abruzzi
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by abruzzi » 8 Dec 2013, 21:31

what to explain?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by roope » 9 Apr 2014, 15:03

Dunno if ez known and I'm just a nab but:

noticed that when you watch a rec, the kuski takes his hand off the handlebars when volting like he should. But when you rewind the rec to the same moment where he previously put his hands in the air, he doesn't anymore :O
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq » 9 Apr 2014, 16:57

hib bug, un elma
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Lousku
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku » 27 Apr 2014, 23:06

Why does one nat fall off the poly when enter int15 and nat press anything? Are vertices litel bumps or wateh?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Hosp » 28 Apr 2014, 13:03

you don't get any speed to either direction, perfect placement of vertixes and start
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