Mysteries of the Elma Universe

General discussion about the games and the scene.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ROKKEBOL »

Pls explain this:
inb4: your mom cheated, not me
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Bludek »

As always; It's about animation of turning (pressing space). Play it backwards and you'll see it clearly.


Also I have this thing to share:
I have hoyled one of my levs a bit, coz wanted u22:00. So after I made 21:99, I have merged it with my prev 22:00. The wheel touches flower from very different distance in those recs, even thought the speed is the same.
My opinion is that in this case it is about different volting before touching flower, but dunno.

btw if you make better time than 21:99, pls share, thx )
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by pawq »

Isn't that to do with framing of rec files?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Mawane »

looks perfectly fine with RM (replay manger), havent checked in-game
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Schumi »

Elasto Mania - 34:22.20 | #416 - 12. April 2021
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq »

you know those extreme stretches with low fps when physics calculations gets out of hand and wheels boom into andromeda and 0.05 sec later you get internal error in your face. Perhaps that's what happened here but backwheel just happened to hit flower and because it happened so fast the frame where wheel touches flower isnt present in the rec file. Recs and rides never are exactly the same anyway, recs just store some of the states of the ride at 30fps and are then interpolated in the replay viewer
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Orcc »

Mayke similar lev with zilion flowers and maby pasibely ez to reproduce zanpe theory
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Mats »

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Pab »

so thats how it looks :D
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by gimp »

I have a mystery. I tried to make an evil lev. And it became much more evil than i anticipated. Jack got 6.65, and no matter how much i play i can only get 6.66. it is an impossible time.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by abruzzi »

6.68 here
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lukazz »

http://elmaonline.net/battles/83008
this was battled just a minute ago. i always thought auto-levels depend on FPS and things like that. but i got times from 17.75 to 18.11 with the same settings and everything, and in some runs i just died. WHAT THE HELL.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Labs »

Your fps is not set to 30 so it can go lower always in the run and that can make some changes. Maybe with 30 too but you cant set up 1.. Or dunno i think zweq already told why is that or mila or jon.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by bene »

Not really a mystery, fps is not constant when playing even if you limit, these variations even if tiny change the outcome by very much.

Zweq simulated elma physics (using jonelma) sometime and did 10k runs in the same level with the same moves (only gas) with fluctuating 30 fps, recorded times and puted graph and stuff. There is some spreadxiit around somewhere which I can't find now.

Here level, finishtime in spreadxiit varied by like a second.
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/281896

Results if you play this level live will be different because there is completely different fps fluctuation compared to test and was done to illustrate how different it was with some small fluctuation osv not to illustrate how different it was with live fluctuation.

But my post has like 0 value cause I can't remember fps values in test or find the faking spreadsheet -.-
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Hosp »

bene is obv one of most knowledgable mans in the community so even if nat much 'proof' in post it has value >1 osv
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Zweq »

Bene was refering to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
10k runs with throttle only in http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/ ... llfinished with "fluctuating" 30.0 - 30.1 fps. It's not exact elma, so I wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't care about any proofs. I just wanted to get confirmation to my experiences in milaSL with 30 fps. Graph looked exactly like I predicted, normal distribution. I had noticed the same while höyling short levs with milaSL with 30 fps. For example hangman end I could get 0.5 higher speed given enough loads throttle only.

In theory it might mean things like:
- Luck rides are real
- Even with perfect play / much better play than current WR holder, you will sometimes not beat the WR (think flat track, freefall)

But I understand my test was done in extreme lev and in unrealistic setting, and also not done with real elma, more tests would be required, preferably in real elma (I wonder if smibu or jon or anyone has saved original reverse engineered elma somewhere without static timestep change?)
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by FinMan »

Can't be true because <Ramone> elma is 100% skill, 0% luck

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by milagros »

nah, ramone said : elma ez better
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Bludek »

Z, m: How is .rec file saved then? It cannot be just a sequence of correct key strokes at the right time, it wouldn't be replayed the same for the viewer every time (I thought it is saved like that).

Is the position of head, wheel and other wheel saved every 1/30 of the second by the game? And does the SL works the same? Or do I have it all wrong?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Lousku »

Lousku wrote:Why does one nat fall off the poly when enter int15 and nat press anything? Are vertices litel bumps or wateh?
Was this ever answered? I forget. Hosp's answer is incorrect as the mopo starts rolling towards the left but stops right at the edge and starts rolling back right, even though theer's no extra vertex.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by bene »

I död u14 wu luck rides are real.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Mats »

Lousku wrote:
Lousku wrote:Why does one nat fall off the poly when enter int15 and nat press anything? Are vertices litel bumps or wateh?
Was this ever answered? I forget. Hosp's answer is incorrect as the mopo starts rolling towards the left but stops right at the edge and starts rolling back right, even though theer's no extra vertex.
I tried make vertice longer, but still with higher speed same thing happend, I think it's some psychics thing, when wheel hits edge its heavier on right side making the round wheel push bike backwards :?:
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by HatCat »

Mats wrote:
Lousku wrote:I tried make vertice longer, but still with higher speed same thing happend, I think it's some psychic thing.
You've said it.

psychic: "relating to or denoting phenomena that are apparently inexplicable by natural laws."
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by John »

Take a look at this bugged polygon.

I made the hangs in Editor then went to ALE to create the circle around the level. After saving in ALE I went back to Editor to try the level and the bug was there. After changing the level properties, naming the level "172 WTF" I saved (in Editor) and the bug was gone. To see if I could make the bug come back I went back to ALE, moved an apple and saved again and the bug was back. Anyone knows what causes this bug?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel »

it has something to do with the way the vertices are ordered in the polygon (cw/ccw), elma uses that to determine if poly is a hole or ground
elma editor always fixes this when saving the lev
for some reason theres an option in ale that turns off checking and fixing winding direction
Lousku wrote:Why does one nat fall off the poly when enter int15 and nat press anything? Are vertices litel bumps or wateh?
no ide but can imagine its just a inacuracy of the phisics, liek it thinks that vertical line on the left of the poly is slightly longer so wheel catches on end
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Smibu »

jon was faster to explain the polygon bug, but anyway, here's my explanation:

The orientation of the rightmost hang polygon is wrong. Elma expects all ground polygons to be positively oriented (i.e. vertices are listed in counterclockwise order in memory), but that polygon is negatively oriented unlike the other hang polygons. You can check this yourself in ALE - move the mouse over the vertices of the polygon in clockwise order and see how the vertex number changes.

I don't know what causes ALE to compute the orientation incorrectly; would need to look at the source code. It's probably just about some "corner case" being handled incorrectly. Corner cases usually happen when two or more vertices have coinciding x- or y-coordinates.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Bludek »

Just realized, when u press either "new" or "cancel" when entering internal editor, it is actually the same thing.

Mind = blown
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Madness »

Wow, I have been playing Elma for 10 years and this is the first time I've pressed that cancel button.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Igge »

Same here! I actually entered the game just to press that button after reading this; don't know if I ever have before..
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by gimp »

I will always press cancel now
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by roope »

http://elmaonline.net/downloads/lev/353513

This lev was interesting, it caused internal error for some and for some didn't. Some could only play with low details, some could with full. I was able to F1+enter around the lev for some 10 seconds before getting internal error. Mans speculated it was because of a mystery buggish grass line in the bottom of the lev.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by FinMan »

roope: ye, int error/crash appears if grass is out of level borders too far for your resolution/zoom or whatever, seen this same bug happen a couple of times earlier too. It just seems to bug out after having to draw grass so far away or something.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Bludek »

I didn't feel like making a new topic, but this will fit here nicely.

I was just wondering: How does elma decide how to fuck up the colors, when u get golden elma?

Recently I've made my pc to change desktop wallpaper every 30 seconds, but when I play elma, it fucks up its colors. Note that I have fullscreen on, when I play elma. In the first picture (below) there's normal colors, the second pic shows how colors change after 30 seconds (when wallpaper changes) and 3rd pic shows "classic" golden elma after another 30 seconds (and it will stay like that forever).

Notice how apples on minimap are white in the 2nd picture (same color as flower), random-ish bright green appears somewhere and there's a blue line on apples.
Why does this happen? Why doesn't it change immediately to "classic" golden elma?

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btw I know ddraw.dll would fix this. Also afaik, golden elma happens when color palettes change.
And sorry about the pic quality - it is actually impossible to printscreen this.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ROKKEBOL »

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This is "Y" letter from eol. Just realized that right top pixel is missed somehow. After 7 years of eoling, lol.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Hosp »

nice find, looks cooler imo plz dont change
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by AndrY »

noticed it long time ago, bcs it is in my nickname. it must be fixed imo:/

-------------------------------------------------------------------
+ one more mystery (although there was such topic :? )
Recent times, after I play elma a bit, buttons "2", "w", "s", "x" and "ctrl+z" are dont obey me in whole computer for about 1-2 days. They stop to work at a random time, I batter them and they are working again. Until next stopping.
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by pawq »

AndrY wrote: 5 Oct 2018, 16:31it must be fixed imo:/
You realise that it is literally impossible that it'll ever happen?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by AndrY »

pawq wrote: 6 Oct 2018, 15:48 You realise that it is literally impossible that it'll ever happen?
yea, but (just imagine) in case the developer of elma 1.3.1 will think "add this pixel or not?"

add
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by Kopaka »

obviously it should stay as it is, would you also update the graphics of the game to 3d and VR?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel »

3D VR elma.res with fixed Y http://zzz.ink/elma/tools/elmares_yfix.zip
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by AndrY »

jonsykkel wrote: 6 Oct 2018, 19:43 3D VR elma.res with fixed Y http://zzz.ink/elma/tools/elmares_yfix.zip
lol what is it?? :D is it legal?
seems even keyboard doesnt brake here:o but where 3d?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by iCS »

Almost all parts of the kuski suffer more or less distortions after assembled in Elma.
Gets a lot of fat on the legs, but the body becomes somewhat thinner. And his upper arm is mirrored for some reason :roll:
Mopo suspensions also become much thicker.
I added green circles to the distorted parts, some of them look very egg-shaped in the game.

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There's a transparency bug on the kuski's hand, and another one on susp2. The shiny parts supposed to be white, but the background color (which defines transparency), is also the very same white accidentally, so these pixels are handled as transparent. (Here I changed white to pink for better distinction)

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by badyl »

Someone pls explain flower touch in this winrec (need to switch off animated objects)

https://elma.online/battles/157337
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ribot »

As someone asked, is it possible to change the physics of the game for auto levels to work the same always. And the answer to that is... that auto-levels will work the same every run on okeol, on the same computer. However, what I've noticed in AI programming is that all computers don't get the exact same calculation results. In other words recs wouldn't always be the same on two different computers, although on the same computer it would create the same result every time. This would axxually be a fatal problem for okeol, so beter if jonsykkel could come here and give incomprehensible explain.

And zweq asked about how a flower is touched when wheels go boom. Sometimes it's not possible to see in recs, unless perhaps mega zoom out and render frame by frame. You can visualize these recs with elma imager, as this example. It would be a good feature in okeol that it zoomz out so wheels and head are always visible, even on mega stretch.

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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by FinMan »

recs arent accurate though imo, so cant know by analyzing rec?
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by ribot »

Okeol recs = new optimized tech and features
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by FinMan »

o ye, misunderstood a bit somehow
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jonsykkel »

is it possible to change the physics of the game for auto levels to work the same always
yes by using integer only physic u can garante it runs same on any device
auto-levels will work the same every run on okeol, on the same computer
oke fysics are 100% determistic on any device but to anti savelod has a input in adition to gas brake left volt right volt turn which is supose to be random number from server. it put 0 there if disconected so auto level wil play same any where only if u are disconect

However, what I've noticed in AI programming is that all computers don't get the exact same calculation results. In other words recs wouldn't always be the same on two different computers, although on the same computer it would create the same result every time. This would axxually be a fatal problem for okeol, so beter if jonsykkel could come here and give incomprehensible explain.
floatink point stuf vas to hard for me to undersand but ass far as im could figure out it be like this most cpu use ieee754 standard floats which gurante precise results of +-*/ and sqrt functions but not trigometry functions which elma uses (cos/sin) https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/ ... terminism/
im had problem with float elma fysic doing dif thing when gmopiled on difrent systems and it turend out to be cuz glibc on linus used software impletation of sin/cos insted of fsin/fcos x87 instructions like i goted on Vindows
but acordik that txt in link it could also b that u would se difrent results even if put same instructions into difrent cpu. im havent sen that so far with curent pc hardvare but cud ver wel not be reliable into future or cud be difrent on fones or vatever who knows
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by milagros »

pawq wrote: 6 Oct 2018, 15:48 You realise that it is literally impossible that it'll ever happen?
the .abc format is public, all you have to do is import your own font
i think i converted it from arial with my imperfect bezier curves code
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Re: Mysteries of the Elma Universe

Post by jblaze »

https://elma.online/r/pyispmepqo

look closely at 3,5s. looks like turn animation "bug" worked the opposite direction this time :D
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