Flag Tag battle rules

[Kopaka]

It came to my attention that many people have been using allow starter when starting flag tag battles. Also it has earlier been discussed if old levels should be allowed for flag tag battles. As of current there is no exception for flag tag battles in rules, so normal rules apply, as in starter not allowed and old levels not allowed. So I thought some discussion of this could be a good idea.

So basically, do you think the nature of flag tag battles mean that the advantage a starter have or someone who have played the level before have are insignificant? or should same rules as other battles apply for flag tag battles aswell?

[Lousku]

Some arguments for allowing it.

(overly serious at the risk of burgery)

• Flagtags are not very competitive, at least among those of us who play them most. We play for fun, not so much winning. We also do "unselfish" things for the sake of fun. For example if there's an orgy in a corner, we'll try to get the flag just loose enough and esc to send it to a better part of the lev. That wouldn't make sense if we were just trying to accumulate max time and win.
• Designer doesn't have as big of an advantage in flagtags as other battles, since moves depend on other players in addition to polygons. Though granted, there still is some weird psychological home court advantage even in untested levels.
• If starter checks the box and plays the balle, he'll usually play lighter and make sure not to win. It's also kinda common to ask other players if anyone has anything against allowing starter. Occasionally starter does win, but it's not regarded as a big deal. I think it's a much smaller crime than e.g. extensive camping in your own flagtag (or not making a flagtag balle to begin with :D).
• There's often a situation when mans would love to play flagtag but few are willing to make a lev for it. It takes more effort to make a decent flagtag than a decent normal battle. Making that effort is more worth it when you get to participate.

[roope]

As probably expected, I agree wholly with Lousku. Especially the last point he made: so few are willing to make flagtags, because a decent one is pretty hard to make and you basically get zero reward if starter is not allowed, only missing all the fun.


I think there's this kind of flagtag hierarchy:
1. The flagtag lovers. The ones who most often make and request making a flagtag and play them with the gentleman code (me, Lousku, pingy for example).
2. Likers. The ones who usually play flagtags but don't contribute by making them. Some play dirty, some play gentleman-like.
3. Occasional battlers
4. Haters. "ft, bye"

Lovers and likers don't usually mind starter being allowed because it's for the sake of getting to play a flagtag. Occasional battlers and more so haters often remember to "bitch" about starter playing because they don't have the passion.

It's very rare to see an old lev as a flagtag battle imo. Shouldn't be allowed as far as I'm concerned. You often see comment's like "this would be great as an ft" in random battles but they never come to realization.

Also, I don't think flagtags count towards any ranking in EOL site? So makes stuff less serious.


ft's ftw




wut

[Hosp]

i agre with the 2 above. I don't even play FT's usually because so mega lag but still.

[nick-o-matic]

It's not so serious. I have always thought the rules are bit too nazi in belma/EOL. The main idea of elma/EOL is to give people fun time anyway. Ez allow starter and old levels in flag tags. As a side note I would allow old levels in norm battles too with certain conditions (like levels must be really old so that if someone has played it like 10y ago in battle, he can't get much profit out of it, instead it could give a nice nostalgic feeling).

[J-sim]

i think battling old ft levs should be allowed. the experience would just become better and better for each time an old level is flagtag battled. ideally every player would know the level quite well. and if it truly is a good ft level then, as far as i see, it would be fun to play several times.
i think we should think of ft levels more as arenas. the ft battle can evolve - again if wellmade - in so many different ways simply because there's more than just yourself involved in the playing experience.

edit: and oh, if my ping would just be a bit better i would gladly play flagtags all day

[Lukazz]

good flagtag battles are one of the coolest battles in EOL. i used allow starter a few times myself in the past (not so much lately, because i lost my special battle rights for it once or twice) and, like lousku said, i always played a little less serious, esced when i was in some impsy place with the flag and so on, and i always made sure that i didn't win.

i agree with everything said before. allow starter is okay. just use some common sense and don't make any stupid spyplaces that are only reachable with impsy styles and camp there. i also liked what j-sim said about flag-tag levs being arens. yes, good flag-tag battles are really hard to make and it takes lots of time to avoid some stupid orgy-places. but the difference between normal levs and flag-tag levs: when you spend much time on a normal lev you usually put more battle-time; 30 or 40 mins are very common for good 1-min-levs. for flag-tag levs on the other hand battle times over 20-25 are very rare and it's also not very fun, because you have to stay focused for the whole time. also i'm usually not very motivated when i join a flag-tag lev after 5 or 10 mins and the leader has 2-3 mins already, because it's almost impsy to still win. so instead of putting more and more battle time for flag-tags to get a feeling, that it was worth the 1 hour making-process it would be cooler if old levs were allowed, so you'd play them a few times over a few weeks with just 15 to 20 mins battle-time (which in my opinion is usually the best battletime for flag-tags).

EDIT: thanks to kopa once again for being a cool dude and let the community discuss minor issues like these, even when berh is fucking up the whole EOL again at the same time.

[ROKKEBOL]

I dont like flagtags, never play them and dont care of who plays, wins, gets points etc.
But i dont like when dudes play their battles because "it's just generated rah/ruh/domiFF"

[Madness]

How about this:

Playing your own flag tag battle: 3-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle in an old level: 2-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle: 1-year ban
Thinking of starting a flag tag battle: warning

[Zweq]

would be nice with multithreaded battle sistem for casual statisticless flag tag lols

[Lukazz]

How about this:

Playing your own flag tag battle: 3-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle in an old level: 2-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle: 1-year ban
Thinking of starting a flag tag battle: warning

being a lousy quitter: try again

[Tigro]

How about this:

Playing your own flag tag battle: 3-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle in an old level: 2-year ban
Starting a flag tag battle: 1-year ban
Thinking of starting a flag tag battle: warning

Haters gonna hate.

[Ramone]

ok. I didnt read above posts. But this is what I feel:

Old levels: Imo should definately be allowed. I dont think ppl will use this in a bad way. Most flag tags arent very successful, so why not reuse good levels? Players who played them might have slight advantage, not much. its more about tactics and adapting to other players. Not so much about tricks you need to learn (as in a normal level) but more what tricks you can come up with giving the exact current situation. And that is based on other players and where you happen to be.

Allow starter: Imo should definately be allowed. If old levels allowed (which I think) ofc player should be allowed too. Flag tags are selmdom very planned/tested. And same reasons old levels can be used starter should be allowed. Doesnt matter at all imo. Also sometimes its nice with starter to grab flag and die/esc in tight spot if flag gets stuck and no one can get it out.

[ville_j]

I also vote allow starter and allow old. It's annoying when no one makes an ft and you can't do it yourself either because then you can't play. All teh points are already made in this topic so I don't hev much to add.

[FinMan]

I vote allow starting old, in case it is not queued to prevent from constant old ft flood. I also have nothing against playing own ft levs, especially in case it is already battled.

ps. inb4 shitflood, no, I don't have anything against ft players even though I don't like to play them..

[Lukazz]

I vote allow starting old, in case it is not queued to prevent from constant old ft flood.

ye, good idea.

[Kopaka]

Alright this seems to be something people wants to be allowed. However if we just allow any flag tag level to be rebattled I'm still a bit afraid that people who played it before have a significant advantage. I would propose a solution where we have a predetermined list of levels which are allowed to be rebattled as flag tag levels. This secures some sort of quality in rebattled levels and it gives everyone an even opportunity to familiarize themselves with the levels.

So in practice a lauta topic where people can nominate levels and mods can add it to a list shown on eol site. And anyone with special battle rights can battle these.

Another issue is starting too many and at the wrong time. As has been proposed they should only be battled when there is no queue. However that is true very often, and if you can just rebattle a flagtag you might do that instead of designing a new normal battle, thus discouraging creation of new levels. A solution to that would be some limit of for example 5 flag tags a day. The amount currently battled today can be shown on the eol site along with the list of levels. Having this list also gives the possibility to show a cool down on the individual levels aswell as a global cool down for flag tags. So we get variety and not many flag tags in a row etc.

Of course we can't directly enforce people to follow these rules but that's what bans are for.

This of course is making it pretty complicated but I think it would be most fair for everyone. To follow roope's hierarchy: for 4 they won't get flag tags spammed too much, for 3 and 2 they will have a better chance against the lovers in rebattled levels, for 1 they have a reason to spend a lot of time on a level to get it on the allowed rebattles list.

So do you think this would be a good solution? And if so what should max flag tags per day be? what should individual cool down be? and what should global cool down be?

[Chris]

I don't think old levels should be battled. At glance it seems to be good idea, but it isn't when I thought about it. This would discourage designers from making new ft levels. Also any lists of "good" level isn't good idea. I like fts, but the funny thing about them is that I can explore new level, just cruise around it. Playing the same level over and over again isn't fun. Also people may develop some strategies, learn levels, find some tricks/styles and easily beat others. In fresh ft this isn't possible, you need to rely on pure elma or ft skills, not preplanned moves or strategies. Also, just like any other level battled in elma, the "thrill" is that this is always something new. I don't think many would agree with me, but that's just my 2 cents.

[Pingywings]

i agree with chris

[A.K.B.]

I also agree with chris.

[Pingywings]

i agree with akb

[goofu]

i agre with AKB XD

[Pingywings]

i disagree with goofu

[BlaZtek]

Balle old flagtag balles again: yes, but only if good. If bad instant ban 1000 years
Balle designer can play: yes

[roope]

So, anything gonna be decided?

[Igge]

Since we can't seem to reach an agreement let's just ban flag tag battles altogether and we'll all be happy.

[Lousku]

Kopa's solution impsy to digest. Sash complicated for what I see as a nonissue. How about just making flagtags unranked?

[Kopaka]

Kopa's solution impsy to digest. Sash complicated for what I see as a nonissue. How about just making flagtags unranked?

Even if we don't consider ranking and competition, what might be more important is do you want to run the risk of having 10 bad flagtag levels rebattled once a day. You can ban for that but that's when it get's complicated again, when is it bad and when is it too much.

[roope]

How about leaving the other stuff like rebattling old levs to be discussed and just allowing starters to play for now?

[Lousku]

Kopa's solution impsy to digest. Sash complicated for what I see as a nonissue. How about just making flagtags unranked?

Even if we don't consider ranking and competition, what might be more important is do you want to run the risk of having 10 bad flagtag levels rebattled once a day. You can ban for that but that's when it get's complicated again, when is it bad and when is it too much.

I feel like special balle rights is enough of a measure against this. If someone goes on a rampage, you can just decide to remove teh from them, right? It wouldn't be as controversial as bans since nobody is entitled to special balle rights in the first place (as opposed to playing rights since can't make official WRs without teh), so you could remove teh by common sense.

[Zweq]

maby fagtag lev isnt considered old after 1 day / 1 week / 1 month / 3 month / 6 month / 12 month / 29. bjenn month whatever feels most convenient amount of time

[danitah]

imo allow starter, no limit on fts but maybe limit on reballes mabe. or mabe option when starting balle to start unranked, which would be mandatory when starting old ones. Also this simple change to the mechanics would improve ft experience a lot i think: after you get flag, cooldown of about 0.5s until someone can re-capture.

[k00]

Allow starter: yes (because of what many guys already said)

Allow old ft battles: yes, but with some sort of restriction. Like for example if lev gets good rating (does lev rating work anyway?) you can rebattle. Or just simply allow like 3 times to rebattle old or something like that. Also I like the idea of some sort of list with good ft levs that get played every now and then. Maybe no restrictions but just remove special balle rights if being mongo.

[elmas]

many has played own flag tags so far, least i have

[Undiente]

Hey guise I agree on Allow Starter for flagtag.

Hell, I agree on Allow Starter in any balle for I'm such a nab and my battlelevs are untested before starting battle. Anyway I prefer watching everyone else and having my times not to count.

But that's a different topic, for another thread.

Flagtag is a bullshitty joke. A funny one. So "Allow Starter" has no let down. I enjoy making them, but I'm not going to do anymore because I just can't fucking enjoy them.

On the other hand, battling old levels is a complicated issue, where there's no right or wrong - it's like the abortion or illegal inmigrants of flagtags.

[Mats]

ft battles or any other battle than norm doesnt count in ranking, ff's neither. So that cant be considered an issue