Level making tips

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Chris
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Level making tips

Post by Chris »

I want to make better battle levels. Can give any tips me any tips or tutorials? Or generally tell me how to you make your own battles? Any help will be very appreciated.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Igge »

There was a cetcast by me but its gone now) Maybe should make new similar tutorial/explanation/brag video sometime.

Anyhow, one thing I use to make more interesting levels is to add more polygons, and try not to have just a main polygon that you drive on and nothing else. And by that I don't mean make apple harvests, but rather if you put an apple in a corner of the lev, put it on top of or below a polygon and make it so that you can take it both from above and below, and come out the other side maybe. This makes the level more dynamic that just having a single drivable polygon.

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I should make a new video sometime though, but we'll see when that happens)
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Lee »

Please make a new video, Igge. You have a nice speaking voice.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Chris »

Just made this using Igge's technique: http://elmaonline.net/battles/65155

What do you think? Anyone got any other ideas?
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Bjenn »

Just one word: un-fucking-believeable!
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Igge »

it was a really nice balle))
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Re: Level making tips

Post by roope »

Yeah, the few times I've seen you make other than flat tracks the levs have usually been pretty nice.

A pretty easy and fast technique I use to make a decent battle lev is first just roughly clicking around to form sort of tunnel, and then smoothing it up with some testing for a pleasurable ride. Can be used to make nice ffs too if keep clicking for long) ALSO can add polygons in the middle of tunnel for lousku effect.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Madness »

I don't think I can give you any tips or teach you, talent for level making is something you have to be born with, sorry.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Pingywings »

this + this + this = GAA
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Undiente »

I'm currently working in a short levelpack trying to bring out the juice of the internals without using their outdated general style (and without gimmicky levels like spiral, animal, labs and shit). My main goal is enhancing the organic and pure stylefinding based on the designer's (my own) naivetée. Because that's what I think is one of the turning points in elma level designing.

Don't overanalyze, don't overpolish. You are hardwired with pro tricks and styles, even if you can't perform them. You know how they work. The more time you spend polishing, analyzing and flow-testing a lev, the more you're going to destroy the "natural" styles of the level. The level will become a puzzle: The kuskis will have to find what YOU wanted them to do - keystroke per keystroke. And you will have to spend a fuckload of time polishing it (considering most of us level designers are not usually pros, this takes time and frustration). 0 stylefinding. That's not necessarily bad in any way, but I'm sure that's not what you're always looking for.

TL;DR: Just test a little it if it flows, then add some stuff here and there, always being naive, not trying to perform any specific style. And never spend more than 10 minutes in each level. If you want to spend 10 minutes more, do it in an alternate version of the level, and keep both of them.

That's my tip: As a designer, be naive, don't overpolish, be fast and intuitive, let the kuskis carry their burden.


Out of topic: I'm actually happy about how the levels for the Naive pack are coming out! I will soon open a thread in Advertising. My main restriction in it is that I can only spend 6 minutes for the initial level, 30 mins or so cruising and playing it, and then another 6 minutes maximum for the alternative version.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by elmas »

I sometimes randomclick some poly and then create lev around it
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Re: Level making tips

Post by A.K.B. »

I would like to make a lev-making bible someday.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by niN »

In lack for better topics I post this little "funderare" here :)

Do designers play their levels much after they deem them finished? I play my levels sometimes.

I find that with most levels, if I play them a lot, I get tired of them and either delete/forget about them or change them to the point that they're not really recognizable anymore. For this, I've kind of made a rule when I make cuplevs that once the level is finished I don't enter it until it's been published (and the option to edit it is gone). This also makes it difficult for me to make bigger levelpacks. I guess for players like Ramone or Jeppe who can just produce thousands of levels and easily make levpacks the approach is very diffrent.

This is just a topic that interested me. I'm not seeking advice etc.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by roope »

I do play them. Nowadays I always have some oke levs in storage (for cups or good battles or smth) and I really like cruising them offline.

I don't have the same issue. The feeling of a certain lev being finished doesn't go away, and it doesn't even cross my mind to change them (at least much); I mostly only edit them after I get feedback of some part not fitting in well osv.

I personally don't get deleting levs at all (talli for example does that a lot). IMO if you've already made an effort to make a decent level, you should at least battle it instead of deleting it. I've got some levs like that in storage too: for example had some idea that didn't really work out, but the lev's still there in case there's a need for battle lev and I don't orka make new OR in case I want to go back to editing it some time.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by roope »

Maybe I'll post here too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naJboFqgO1A
Technique 1: spawn apples randomly and make level around/between them. Took ~half an hour to make a 6 min lev. (really struggling with that spiral =D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0XrYtMmEdo
Technique 2: make very rough tunnels with SLE pipe tool and edit it to be flowier. Also pos to make good levs without need to edit. Took ~7 minutes to make a 5 minute lev.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ramone »

Tip1: dont make crap levels
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Igge »

Nice)

I usually make ffs like the first one you posted, but I tend to spam more apples and leave more big rooms. This allows you to make a longer ff (usually around 10mins), in shorter time (usually around 10 mins)

See eggsamples:
http://elmaonline.net/battles/41671
http://elmaonline.net/battles/7101
http://elmaonline.net/battles/6626
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Pab »

Ill have to think some tips to make levs, duno right now.
Got two old videos showing my making some pipes and ffs. Its not real live recording, but in general you can see how i kind of have something in mind of what i wanna do, and then i test it (bikes moves around, clearly testing), and sometimes it fails and gotta redo some parts. At least for APipes i always spent much time making them, but lately my design techniques changed a bit. For example TTC levels which have much more basic feeling.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Hosp »

My tip: go to elmaonline.net and download ANY level created by Hosp (Hoyas, osv)
Try to make level similar to that = profit
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Bjenn »

Tip: Make levels like Bjenn-BOSS, EOLbj
But yea Hoyas are okez very pleaseent!
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ramone »

Best tip imo is dont try to please anyone else. Make level(s) that you would like yourself!
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Madness »

That's what I do.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Pab »

I had some new thoughts about this, but not about specific ways of making levels, like making polygons this or that way.
Is not that i always follow this ideas, just starting to write something down, so ill just throw em here:

1. As Ramone said, make stuff that you would like. Imagine yourself playing that battle and think, would it be fun or at least interesting for me, or would it be plain boredom or painful.

2. Think what kind of level you want to make when you open the editor. Do you want ppl to have brainfarts looking for styles. Maybe make it 1 route only but still wanting ppl to think that the level is smartly made. Or do you want a speedy level. Flowy, hard, flat, quick, spinnik, classic or freaking unique. And then you find a way to get there.

3. Try new stuff. You can try tools that you dont usually use to create new things. Like when Zero made details for HALF1A that made ppl shat in their pants with a tool that existed for years. For example, with SLE you can use pipe tool, frame, merge polys, cut/connect, etc.
Invent new ways of approaching the making, for example, making pictures or apples first and then making the polygons around it.

4. Get inspiration from other levels when you are out of ideas, even from internals. Check any sort of details that you like about a level and try to get started from there.

5. If needed, take some time to make! Sometimes im lucky to make something good at first try, but most times it is super horrible and i end up editing the same level lots of times before getting something decent.

So, there prolly are some good tips of what to do or what not to do, to make good levels, but i dunno if i would like to always follow some sort of rules that may limit my creativity. At the end of the day, you cannot please everyone all the time. I guess ppl onions are the only measure of level goodness, so maybe ask ppl what they think about your levs.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by adi »

Level making tips for apple battles:

General tips:
- Just find your own style to make (I have seen some really awesome apple battles that weren't made by chris)
- Hint by chris: Draw the whole level first and then add apples (without testing at all)
- After level is done: check total amount of apples in sle and add it in lev title or in level itself near start (this will help players a lot!)

Apple placements:
- Just place apples wherever you want
- However, try to avoid spawning them everywhere
- It's important to add easy/very easy apples too but it's good if they are in logical spots making it easy to memorize already taken apples
- Feel free to add very hard apples that may be impsy to take

Start placement:
- Somewhere "middle"
- Should avoid unnecessary boring cruising to parts where action happens

Anyway it's nice to have variety. For example I highly enjoy apple battles where every apple is relatively easy (it's like cruising ff but more fun). Anyway hard apple battles are best for sure, although going for impsy apples might make me very anxious.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Chris »

I would like to add couple of apple battle tips.

-When you feel that your apple is too hard, just scale down whole level then look at headbang spots and vsync gaks (might not work for some levs)

-Start should usually be in middle-upper part, because wrooming down is quicker and it's easier to draw routes that go down

-Battle time is tricky, usually smaller battles will be played by more people so add more time there, so most of people can collect all apples. For bigger battles just add enough time for some decent players, because most of people will give up at some point and you don't want to see adi or markku taking all apples in 20 minutes then barely anyone playing level for another 20 minutes. For my levels it's usually: battle time=number of apples - 5 or 10. For your own levels it might different, it's trial and error.

-If you want many apples put more in some impsy/hard spots for example rather than spreading them all over level
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Re: Level making tips

Post by kuchitsu »

A basic thing I don't hear about much: try to establish a somewhat consistent style in your polygon shapes. This one is pretty hard to put in words, it's more about what you feel, but let's look at KUBA0891 for an example: http://i.imgur.com/WsaNRML.png

Note how I made the whole level kind of tilted. Even stuff like ceilings or the top polygon maintain a certain angle. I spent some time on achieving this. Even though editing the top polygon (that you aren't supposed to touch at all while playing) didn't affect the gameplay and could be seen as pointless, I believe that it was a quite important thing to do that improved the "feel" of the lev, whatever it is. And when that "feel" is better, playing is more enjoyable too in my opinion.

But that's not all. Let's look at some other elements of this lev's style:
http://i.imgur.com/tyycQGH.png
http://i.imgur.com/PueeqTB.png
http://i.imgur.com/1YjGMBL.png

All these things make the lev more aesthetically pleasant because human brain typically loves when everything is kind of logical and systematic.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ruben »

Yeah, I very much adhere to those principles as well. When making effort levs I spend quite a lot of time giving them a specific style or theme, and making them look balanced. In my opinion the aestethic is absolutely essential in making a level that's nice to play. That being said, if a level is bad there's no amount of visuals that can make it good.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Lousku »

I follow that line of thought too and usually adjust levs for a specific look. Used to do it a lot more, and always wanted untouchable spots to adhere to a style too.

But when I play and think about others' levs, only playability matters. Visuals outside playable area can be a fun novelty to look at for a few seconds but then they just feel like a waste of time. Even if the lev is playable, it feels like it would be better if they had spent that time on making another good lev. But I know that allocation of effort doesn't work like teh so whatever.

The fun part about visuals is how they affect playability, where every polygon in the lev adheres to some kind of style, like kuchi said. It can be a kind of modifier, so if you change the visual style, playability changes too. Then you can consciously change your usual visual style to something you would never make, or even consider ugly, and the lev will play differently.

And the funny thing is that if you make "ugly" things consistently for a while, it starts to make sense and look good. Beisikly: once it's a mistake, twice it's jazz.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Chris »

I always pay attention to look, proportions when I make lev. I don't do it to have distinctive style, but rather I can't stand some things in levs design. I pay special attention to ceilings for some reason.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by ville_j »

Now-a-days I make levels mostly in a way that I draw polygons that look nice and fit together, the level has to look balanced to me. Most of the time I don't even test levels (if I add grass then I check that it looks oke too). Sometimes I might even compromise the playability just because I want to make some polygon in certain shape. I spend a lot more time on making the level look nice than actually testing or thinking how it will play out. Usually my levels are multistylish, those are quite easy to make; just add nice looking polygons and make them accessible from various directions.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by iCS »

Currently experimenting with a chain level, I will merge 8 short levels generated in ZLE.
Here are the elements:
http://kopasite.net/up/y8m818t03uej2i8/chainexp.jpg
It will require further editing and corrections, but it's much easier to get new ideas if we already have a draft.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by roope »

Oh yes, I've done a few long FFs with ZLE generator, first generated result ofc needs some editing and testing (and still will be quite boring/repetitive) but still can be pretty fun.
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Re: Level making tips

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Re: Level making tips

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Re: Level making tips

Post by AndrY »

more detail pls
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Zweq »

i think what he's trying to say is that right side "looks better" than left side, which makes calling this a tip retarded ofc. If left side "plays better" then this obviously is an antitip?
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Igge »

imo hes trying to say in left youll hit your head when you drive, whether it's hanging on the top poly or driving on the bottom one. I can kinda agree in some sense, but dodging by "piping" a little bit or volting pre-emptively to avoid head collision can be fun and interesting too.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by ville_j »

imo his reasons are purely visual and i agree with it most of the time
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Re: Level making tips

Post by kuchitsu »

Yeah it's just about aesthetics, like keeping an equal wideness so that it looks neat.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by insane guy »

in this case it also helps the playability a lot, e.g. when you come full speed from right on lower poly you can likely fuck up on FAIL version but ez jump to upper poly on WIN.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ramone »

even distances all over usually looks shit and boring. its the dynamic that makes it. left side looks ez better. playbility important, visually its just about the overall feel imo. said this many times thiough
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Lousku »

Free protip 4 all.

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then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ruben »

Why? That seems way too vague to be applicable to any situation.
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Kopaka »

Ruben wrote:Why? That seems way too vague to be applicable to any situation.
that's the joke..
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Re: Level making tips

Post by Ruben »

Oops, I gotted error in system. Sarcasm not detected.
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Re: Level making tips

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Re: Level making tips

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Re: Level making tips

Post by iCS »

Lately I like to make recycle levels, method is usually:
- find an old apple battle
- remove all apples
- rotate/mirror/rescale a lev until it looks fine for a normal level
- plan a route
- optionally add own apples if want longer route
- modify polygons if needed (to avoid mongo spots etc)
Not the most creative way of levmaking, but at least a really fast one.

examples:
http://elmaonline.net/battles/118553 mirrored+slightly modified -> http://elmaonline.net/battles/135433
http://elmaonline.net/battles/84085 rotated+slightly modified -> http://elmaonline.net/battles/135509
http://elmaonline.net/battles/90134 rotated+slightly modified -> http://elmaonline.net/battles/135541 (unused parts deleted)
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