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 Post subject: Single-segment speedrun?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 20:57 
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Has this ever been done by anyone? Im thinking play all internals 1-54 in order, skipping level or quitting elma to swap fps not allowed or any tinkering of the sorts. Dying is allowed you just have to start over on the same level again until you complete it, then move on to the next etc


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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 21:06 
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Probably it has happened during 1 hour tt.

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 22:27 
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My think Xarthok has record in it on some mongosite?

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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 23:16 
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Why couldn't you change fps? :S

But yeah, it is a nice idea imo. We also tried some speedruns as Orcc said, though only on levels 1-18 on srl.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 00:09 
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my record in some 1htt was to finish all levels with 8-10 mins still left on the timer, that was on testserver when we played really many of them in a row / during one-two day, so I think with few weeks of attempts a sub 45 min run is possible, or sub 40 if skips are allowed (they should be)

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 00:28 
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Skipping and fps changing should be allowed ye, would be really nice to see this built into eol, try to finish all 54 levs as fast as possible, maybe with auto rec saving of all tries.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 00:33 
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FinMan wrote:
Why couldn't you change fps? :S

Actually I guess you could do that (and use skip level as its part of the game). I was more or less thinking in terms of any other game where you speedrun a single segment (like fps games), you would have to save the game, exit, start it up again, load game from load game menu. Where saving and loading breaks the "single-segment" idea and would make the run "segmented". Just exiting and re-entering the game still feels wrong in the spirit of a single-segment, but less so in elma i guess than most other games out there as it is pretty much instant and the levels arent connected in the fashion that driving into the flower in warm up teleports you straight to the start of flat track.

However if you phrase it like "complete the game as fast as possible" instead of single-segment I guess any tools, glitches, methods, whathaveyou should be acceptable (like skip level, changing fps/timer on for fps drop, bug bounces if you can actually produce any) as long as you finish the level, and arent using any actual cheats.

After watching the awesome games done quick recently it just got me thinking why no one has actually done this in elma (1htt doesnt really apply)


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 01:39 
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I've done it at least once in an 1 hour tt, finishing all levels in order, time was around 59 min I think.

Thundr- wrote:
Actually I guess you could do that (and use skip level as its part of the game).


I guess using skips would be considered any% and finising all would be 100% in the speedrun terminology. Glitches (apple bug, bug bounce) are just way to inconsistent in elma for the competition to be interesting with allowing that.

danielj wrote:
would be really nice to see this built into eol, try to finish all 54 levs as fast as possible, maybe with auto rec saving of all tries.


Well the 1htt function could be used, and could somewhat easily make stats that shows single segment like data, time it took to get ah finished with finising all in order or with max 5 skipped, as long as people can do it in an hour. Actually sort of had plans of that already, just haven't gotten around to (re)making the 1htt stats page.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 05:46 
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Agree, skips would be used in any% and no skips for 100%, as to "beat the game" you essentially need to simply reach 55. More Levels?
I don't think any glitches or bugs should be disallowed. Makes no sense to reset a run that finishes Hooked in 13 seconds or gets a bug bounce in Enigma accidentally. In speedrun world bugs and glitches are more than welcome to be abused. If you were to be really picky you could have a separate category for "glitched" or whatever but since the bugs are way too random to reproduce at will, I don't think there's a need for that. Just consider them gifts from RNGesus. FPS changing would probably waste time going in and out of the game since it's real time that would count here, not total time in-game, so probably best to use the highest FPS you can do Shelf Life hole with. Also tampering with FPS wouldn't fly by most unfamiliar viewers.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 10:03 
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Here is my take on this:

I would consider changing FPS as TAS, but if you guys really have rational arguments against that, there could be a mode for it: any%, 100% and nofps%.

Oh, and using the 5 skip brackets in the game doesn't seem to have any problem with speedrunning, so it doesn't need any extra modes. Actually using it smartly can be useful: At the end of the 100% run, all the levels 1-54 must have been finished.

If you leave a skipped lev to the end, that's your strat and it is allowed. Seriously, this is currently done in any game: Yoshi's Island, Mario 64/Sunshine, etcetera.

For any%, there can be different ending conditions:
1) Finish Apple Harvest - This goes against the freedom of using 5 skips.
2) Finish at least 49 levels - This prevents glitches that allow for more skips to be used.
3) Unlock level 55 - This forces the player to use his last skip with Apple Harvest, which is horribly anticlimatic and boring.
The main problem with this one is that the ending condition is usually when the player loses control over the playable character because the EndScene begins - with credits, cinematics and all that shit. There's nothing like this in Elma, so we should decide on a frame-specific spot to stop time. That spot doesn't really have to be rationally backed, but the community should agree on it.

Oh and bugs and glitches are totally allowed. If a glitch is found that totally breaks the fun in the speedrun, a new mode is created to prevent it. It would not be the first time this happens.

There can also be TAS runs without frame-per-frame input programming. There are TAS where only random-generating methods are changed to always return 100% success. In Elma, TAS could be FPS-meddling, saveloading and changing the display render size (because of course, in non-TAS Elma you have to play in the original resolution :D).

On the other hand, is alovolt hotkey totally alright or is it considered TAS?

As a last note, there are always gimmick runs: blind% (impracticable in this game), coop%, one-hand-only%, one-player-runs-other-player-rotates%, etcetera.

Now, discuss.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 10:47 
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But you dont actually save and load in elma, you just continue from where you were left. Finishing a level is a checkpoint anyway, and I would NOT count checkpoints as save states in any game. Imo saving and loading in the middle of the ride only breaks the segmentism.

Zero death speedrun also could be interesting, tried once during an 1htt and ended up escing right after start in hangman or something which broke it up.

Also speedruns with smibu sl would actually, now that i think of it, be relatively interesting at least if you add a penalty to any loads you use just like in half life.

One thing that should be arranged is weekly speedruns etc, as they would not even break the battling if done correctly. Whatever happens, count me in.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 11:06 
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Undiente wrote:
Here is my take on this:I would consider changing FPS as TAS
Yeah basically that. Imagine you are doing this on a livestream also, like why the fuck would you be like "hold on a minute, i need to exit the game and change fps to get through this hole here in level 27.. ok now thats done now i go out and change back to normal, aand now i go out and change fps again to make this rooster jump, aaand back again." just seems a bit silly and as Xarthok said probably wouldnt fly will unfamiliar viewers if the run is not a TAS run.

Different modes like 100% any% etc seems like a cool idea, at least its worth trying out especially if there is some logical way to implement it in EOL. Like maybe entering lvl 55 stops the timer in EOL for that person when the proper conditions are met? Like complete 49 levels like Undis idea, then enter lvl 55 or something for any%. However it would also be great if anyone could be able to attend this on their own at any point in time, like if someone would wanna höyl this over and over just to set a speedrun world record, but i guess you just would have to record your entire segment/stream live and/or use a face camera for that.

I still think bugs should be universally accepted like Xarthok said, just consider it great luck if it happens, and it probably wouldnt have and serious ramifications to your entire run anyway as there is still 53 other levels you can fuck up and loose those seconds (most likely very few seconds) you gained.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 11:13 
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FinMan wrote:
But you dont actually save and load in elma, you just continue from where you were left. Finishing a level is a checkpoint anyway, and I would NOT count checkpoints as save states in any game. Imo saving and loading in the middle of the ride only breaks the segmentism.


Who and what are you responding to?

FinMan wrote:
One thing that should be arranged is weekly speedruns etc, as they would not even break the battling if done correctly. Whatever happens, count me in.


I love this! A set schedule for runs could be nice, but I don't know how that can be implemented into EOL. It would have to be done "manually" through speedrunslive, like any other races.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 11:31 
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Undiente wrote:
Who and what are you responding to?
This:
Thundr- wrote:
Actually I guess you could do that (and use skip level as its part of the game). I was more or less thinking in terms of any other game where you speedrun a single segment (like fps games), you would have to save the game, exit, start it up again, load game from load game menu. Where saving and loading breaks the "single-segment" idea and would make the run "segmented". Just exiting and re-entering the game still feels wrong in the spirit of a single-segment, but less so in elma i guess than most other games out there as it is pretty much instant and the levels arent connected in the fashion that driving into the flower in warm up teleports you straight to the start of flat track.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 11:50 
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FinMan wrote:
This:


Okay. Then, as I said, I can't find any problem with having total freedom inside the "internal levels" menu (never leaving it but to play the int levels). Switching to a level you skipped earlier is as much a strat as in any other game where you can pick levels.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 12:34 
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So to sum this up, there would be 3(4) categories:
- any% where the 5 skips can be used, I can imagine this being the main category.
- 100% where the skips can't be used, this is probably the most interesting for elmans, but for outsiders: the shorter the better?
- 100% no death no esc, well, very interesting category also.
- any% no death no esc doesn't make sense?

I assume the rules would be something like:
- The timer starts when you enter warm up
- The timer stops when you finish or press skip apple harvest (or should it stop when you enter inside int55?)

What is open for discussion is, do we allow alopatch/multiple resolutions/centered camera or not. I remember xarthok saying that SDA wants only official patches to be used, so if we use any unofficial patch, sending the run to SDA is out of the window (doesn't matter in 2014 as much as in 200x because of twitch?) My assumption is that either you allow all, or none. I personally think that we should allow all because runs should be streamed and if runs should be streamed then they should be done in elma2 anyway which if I remember correctly is using OpenGL rendering -> frapsing / streaming is smooth like berh's butt. And if you happen to get a WR and you want visibility you can just go post in all kinds of forums your run on twitc :---[:-D)

Also the flower picking delay has to be universal for all mans. Just saying there shouldn't be a case where people start by using 1sec delay and then comes random patch with 0 sec delay and new mans do runs making either all new or old runs obsolete, just like what happened with 1htts in belma. I am up for any delay, it just has to be universal.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 13:10 
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Yeah, what I was gonna say was that we should somehow input all the speedruns, especially if we race, to sda but the streaming is always a problem. Of course I forgot about the incoming elma 2 thing, that will make it doable, also wants me to kick Smibu's and Ropelli's asses to get them to code 24/7 really.

Entering Warm up, ending when you finish or skip Apple Harvest sounds fine what comes to the start/finish rules. I also agree with that all these fps limiters, reso/zoom choices etc should be allowed as well as alo button, alo button especially because it is so easy to create a script to do that for you. And what comes to the flower delay that should be kept as it originally was created to elma by Balazs but I dont have anything against cutting it down either but again, isn't that basically modding the way elma always worked?

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 13:31 
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If we assume Elma 2 takes over in a couple of years, there's no need to force people to play with the original horrible settings. Just use the same ones which will be normally adjustable in the future, like zoom, centered camera and alo key (I wonder what will happen with flower delay, I've never had a patch that would remove it). That way the runs now and in the future are best comparable, with the exception of capped bounce strengths?

I guess the ending should be when 55. More Levels starts. The skip is "fully" used when you press enter twice, which ultimately leads you to start the next level. The same would apply to finishing Apple Harvest, you still need one extra enter press to start the last level. Also I guess that's easier to code when the goal is to start the last level.

Undiente wrote:
2) Finish at least 49 levels - This prevents glitches that allow for more skips to be used.

Wut?

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 13:39 
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FinMan wrote:
isn't that basically modding the way elma always worked?


It is also true that we shouldn't compare to console/handheld games, that aren't either moddable nor patchable by official means. They wouldn't allow stuff like our alovolt hotkey, screen resizing/centering or even using elma2 (things that I, personally, would allow in elma speedrunning, with the limits, requirements and exceptions perfectly well tuned). But, maybe, the non-AAA PC speedrunning communities (oldies like Quake and Doom or youngsters like Minecraft) would be okay with this kind of tweaking.

We should act by ourselves on setting the requirements and limits for this game's speedrunning. Whatever SDA tries to impose, they'll be imposing based on general rules that can't be blindly applied to everything. Elma's community is quite old and experienced in the game, and there's no one who can know better on how to best experience the game. I'm sure they will understand and relax their requirements when we finally reach a rational agreement.

Orcc wrote:
Wut?


It is not a rare event that new glitches are discovered that produce sequence breaks. Who knows if, at this time and age in Elma's history a new glitch is found, that fulfils all of the any% requirements, and allows for infinite skips. This sequence break would totally obliterate the any% mode, and can be prevented with that requirement you're wuting about.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 14:56 
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Isnt like bunny-jumping scripts allowed in several games? or similar things, or does SDA accept none such tools?. Such scripts directly improve your way of moving forward, whilst changing resolution in elma does not, it just more convenient to fit with todays regular standards as many screens cant even handle the regular resolutions. The alo key however does.

However, how would SDA even know if we used an alo key or not? With no experience of the game whatsoever, its impossible by just looking at a run to say that an additional key was being used there instead of holding both arrowkeys.


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 15:48 
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We make the rules imo, not some outsiders.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 16:03 
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Imo some kind of "official" and standardized rules that are used in other communities are good for the reason that these speedruns then dont stand out of the crowd in it. But of course we have the final say of how we are gonna run it but I would imagine catching other speedrunners' attention is something that we secretly fantasize of, right?

As for the restriction of being an "official version", if it still matters anyways, elma 2 is gonna be official enough anyway, right? :beer:

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 16:15 
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I guess it must be endorsed by balazs for it to truly count as official. Otherwise, technically, it would simply just be the Official inofficial update to elasto mania. If we lets say would be able to push Elma 2 (or whatever its gonna be called) onto Steam for sale it would get certain recognition, or have balasz put it on elastomania.com.

Could also just buy the creative rights from balasz, not the rights for the income from buying elma from elastomania.com (if he even gets any) but for further developing the game and future installments in the game "series", then Smibu/Rope could put the official stamp on it.

Getting a bit off-topic with this but


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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 21:46 
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Zweq wrote:
i found this image on the internets, might be interesting... I also might be in danger for posting it, but imo mans deserve to know the truth


This wasn't even worthy of a giggle.

Just in case someone is confused after this, Elma2 refers to the (almost) exact copy of Elma with new technology. I don't know how the physics methods in Elma2 works, if they were rewritten from scratch or were somehow translated from Elma's , and even less about its deterministic characteristics. But all of this stuff doesn't belong to this thread, so I'll keep it on theme:

Does Balazs seriously aknowledge the real Elma2 in any way? Does he even care shit about Elma at all?

And in any case, if it can be proven to be deterministic enough (I don't believe it can be 100% proven) with Elma, it may be used for speedrunning. An exhaustive set of tests made of replays, with different FPSs, should be enough to prove this. Any words on its determinism with EOL's Elma?

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PostPosted: 9 Mar 2015, 20:24 
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bump

Dxtory was found, so this thing once again becomes a bit more realistic. I also was able to stream/record on ok-ish quality with nice playability without that on windowed.

What do you guys think about going on speedrun.com to track the shit out of this? I could contact mans there osv. Weekly/biweekly/all the time races on speedrunslive.com a.k.a. xarthoks mongosite?

Also, my and Zero are going for a multi speedrun in the near future, which MiE cup harassed a bit, but is gonna happen anyway. Would be nice if other people went for it, doesn't matter if you can't match us, this stuff is really fun, for serious! :) :)

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2015, 09:05 
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I would want to continue chasing my goal of getting 38tt in 1h =D
But I don't have nearly the time needed for practising now that I have other things in life..

I will try to make time to create that manual to get the shit to work some day.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2015, 21:53 
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SDA is irrelevant in 2014. Speedrun.com is the new home of speedrunning and they would be eager to take us.

Any% would be the core run, obviously, however 100% no deaths/esc and any% no deaths/esc would be pretty good, although any% and any% no deaths/esc would be same record.

There wouldn't be the stigma on FPS limiter changing imo. Plenty of runs use tactics to manipulate fps. It's possible i guess to find an fps value that allows you to toggle timer to hit int27/31 trix so no exit of game is required anyway and just run whole game on 1xx fps shit

That said, is there actually the interest there appears to be? For sure this thread is exciting, but the Individual Level charts on Cyberscore (an iL equivalent to speedrun.com) only have 7 lauta users taking part, and even then axxu only submitted recently (10 years after he made some of his times). What's to say we will get more players interested than the few in this thread.

I'm still keen to take part/organise it though.

The cool thing with skips is to calculate whether you are sweq and just 5skip the longest 5 levs or you 5skip the 5 levs that could cost you the most time in deth/fail.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2015, 22:53 
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I am not sure how fast any% and zero-death% will be the same, taking into account there are levs like freefall where you obviously want that 16.xx at least and you only lose 2ish seconds if you fail start once whereas the time gain is around 17 seconds with the style. Anyway it can be a thing for the not-wr-level quality runs anyway.

Another thing to discuss is the multiplayer speedruns where eol lag is a big part of the run, on average you wait one second per level and get one internal error per run. That is very time-costly and will surely be a thing that's gonna add a lot of randomness to the actual times. To solve the thing I thought maybe we should just count all the rides during the speedrun together including finished runs, escs and deaths. This also obviously is gonna get close to the no-death thing sooner or later. I already asked Kopaka about this one; it should not be too difficult to implement a "show last 1000 or 5000 of my runs" thing on eolsite without too much site traffic because you wouldn't need to go through too big part of the database.

Anyway, where's all the hype, where's the stokedness? Would be nice to get that promised guide to dxtory by Bjenn to help getting started with this.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2015, 23:25 
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Thought about this and I believe posted about this before long ago.

I think a true speedrun would be doing levels 1-54 without dying and without esc just as zweq stated above:

- 100% no death no esc, well, very interesting category also.

Tried it a few times and got frustrated and died many times at lvl 9. Don't have the same skill as many folks on here though.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2015, 22:09 
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Instructions of how to setup Dxtory is finished, I will write about OBS later http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9262.
For those who already know how OBS works can take use of my manual already.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2015, 22:31 
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imo any% is way more interesting to watch and to play. of course no deaths/no escs would be a sick achievment, but it'd probably be very boring to watch and extremely frustrating to "hoyl".

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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2015, 21:49 
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didnt read all. read some.

is there 0% chance that balazs can check over elma2/eol and actually give it "official stamp" or how to say it?

wrs driven with new "unofficial patches" were always ok so why wouldnt he?

maybe Im out of line, just an idea.

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 20:00 
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Balázs Rózsa 2002 wrote:
Even if it doesn't seem like I'll make a new version of Elasto Mania,
making a new version means a lot of time.
When I was developing the current and previous versions of the game,
I had a daytime job that left me with quite much spare time. I was hired to
make projects and when a project was finished and the next did not start
really, I had plenty of time to work on the game. But for two years I have
been working full time in an office. And usually I'm quite busy and cannot
take the time to work with the computer when I get home.
But I'm seriously considering decreasing my working days in a week in the
office and making a new version of the game. I see that there is still
interest in the game among players and the last version is getting quite
old. And it would be refreshing to work on a game instead of the usuall
boring applications we are developing.

When I will start work on a possible next version I don't know. But I
certainly considering it more and more strongly now. I don't know yet what
changes I will make to the game if I start making the new version. I'm
doing some planning all the time about the possible new features, but
everything is very preliminary now and I would not like to tell about them.

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 20:07 
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duke nukem forever took 14 years too, so you never know.

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2015, 11:21 
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Balázs Rózsa took time to make the icrap verson of Elma. As far as we know he could already be building the new verson for PC?!

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 17:39 
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I don't expect new pc version cause it's more money in the phone world.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 09:47 
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Reviving this topic. Someone (not me obv.) should try to put some thought into a 100% run (all 54 levels) of elma and submit it to Awesome Games Done Quick 2016, providing they can attend the event. It would be awesome if it makes it in, especially if ran by one of the top 20.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 10:14 
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Could do this in FEM? We have insaneguy filming there etc ;) What would you say?

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 14:39 
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AGDQ is a live event in Washington, in the US. It would be a live speedrun in front of ~100-150k viewers on Twitch and a few dozen people live in a room (depending on the popularity of elma, I doubt the room will be packed). That's the event in which I did a run of Minecraft in January 2014. Here's Zelda OoT beaten by the WR holder at AGDQ 2015. There are not a lot of people on the chairs behind the couch, but there is a huge room off camera with people watching on projectors. That run was in the middle of the night on the very last day (it was the finale) so there were only about 20-40 people (including me) but during the day it can get pretty packed.

One of the top runners could do a live speedrun in about an hour and I'm sure it could give a lot of exposure for the game. It's a game a ton of people have played a few times at school/their friend's place/on their old computer or whatever when they were a kid and so the nostalgia value is amazing.

www.gamesdonequick.com that's their website where you can see the events and register for the next. Registration will come around August or September, but first, in a week from now starts SGDQ (Summer Games Done Quick).

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 14:53 
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Beisikly we need some good internalist who is willing to höyl the speedrun (probably painful as fack), is willing to travel, has the nerves to do it in front of thousands of pipel and can talk during the run. That's a narrow list. But yeah, it would be awesome.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 23:19 
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No need to talk if Bismuth or someone is there to do the talking also though, many of the other runners do that anyway also.

:wink2:

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2015, 23:37 
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Hmmm if only there were a great internalist who has already been on tv *cough* spef *cough* then this would be even more likely to happen. And agreed it would be great for the game.

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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2015, 20:27 
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Could ez crowdfund someone's travel expenses and Bismuth probably could do most of the talking if he's there. Sounds like a great idea. Unofficial patch, tho? What would their stance be?

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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2015, 22:07 
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Xarthok wrote:
Unofficial patch, tho? What would their stance be?

After seeing those speedruns of heavily modded Half Life 2... I guess saying that this is the only living community of elma and we are playing on current unofficial patch, they'd understand it.
Anyways, it would be totally awesome to see some guy from among us do a good TT live on Twitch.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 01:49 
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I could indeed do the talking. I'm bad at elma but I do know how the game works, and my English is good enough. I'm also 90% sure of going, and for myself I'll be submitting Turok 2 and Splatoon.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 09:28 
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Sounds like mega fun, but the pressure would be too big for me =D
Kazan does not even want to share his looks =P
Spef maybe could do teh, he has been on many cube competitions and if he started to practice only 1h tt or finish all 54 levels fastest possible, he could very well be able to do it.
Zweq, duno, I think nat.
John, lif0r.
Finman, zero and adi??

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 10:14 
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I would pay to see an Elma speedrun at a GDQ event. And I think others would too. So I travel money would be such an issue there.
Bismuth, I saw your speedrun of Minecraft. You're a great communicator for such a thing. But I think finding the right man for the job would be a challenge.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 11:54 
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Modded should be ok I think, they played Duke3D on some fan-made port, for example.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 12:34 
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To be honest I don't think elma would do well as a live singe-segment run. It's really hard to tell skill if you haven't played yourself, and there's such a small margin for potentially huge errors that any level can get really messed up.

Internally within the scene I would love to see such a run, but I don't think it would cater to a wider audience, and I know I would cringe from seeing failures in levels causing them to take twice as long as intended, or having to be restarted...

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2015, 13:52 
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Igge wrote:
To be honest I don't think elma would do well as a live singe-segment run. It's really hard to tell skill if you haven't played yourself, and there's such a small margin for potentially huge errors that any level can get really messed up.

Internally within the scene I would love to see such a run, but I don't think it would cater to a wider audience, and I know I would cringe from seeing failures in levels causing them to take twice as long as intended, or having to be restarted...

Just use noob styles in some levs. Beside that I've seen a lot of speedruns during some marathons where players needed few tries to do something.

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