Improvements to flagtag

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Lousku
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Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lousku »

Flagtag is easily the most fun balletype for me and I think a few others as well. I think it has great potential for being a bigger part of Elma, but there are some problems. People have often suggested improvements on EOL, so how about some discussion on this? Whether these ideas are applicable to EOL, Elma 2 or a separate project, I don't know.

Currently the most successful flagtag battles are almost always played well past primetime when Europe is sleeping, as most levels accommodate a maximum of 5-10 players, great levels rarely more than 20.

Some problems:
  • Lag
  • Orgies (flag stuck in a spot (usually a dead end) because players want to stay to get short bits of time accumulated)
  • Flag is given to a random player when carrier dies
  • You can steal during death delay
  • In bigger levs flag gets out of bounds of small maps
  • Camping
  • Designing good levels is time-consuming
What else?

Lag is not much of a problem for most northern Europeans, but for others it's clearly not fair, as there's only one server you can play flagtag on. Publicly available server software could be one solution. No-one could justifiably complain about lag, and anyone could set up battles in any old level for any group of players. This would also be awesome for LAN parties.

When flag carrier dies, the flag could be given by some other basis than RNG. It could be the one with most time in his timer (though this would encourage camping (could be dealt with by some anticamp measure)), the one nearest/farthest from the previous carrier, the one with least/most time accumulated, or something else. Ideas? Flag could also be dropped to ground, though this would become a new problem in some levels: rescuing the flag from an orgy by escing or dying wouldn't work anymore. Of course in ideal levels there are no dead ends or orgies, but...

Designers can't always be arsed to spend a good half an hour designing a good level. Partly because it's not allowed to play your own battles, and partly because there is no afterbattle and you're not allowed to restart. These points have been discussed in Flag Tag battle rules without conclusion.

Camping and orgies could be eliminated at once by e.g. setting a minimum speed for being able to carry the flag. Another possible measure could be getting killed if you stay within some area for a longer time than x. I don't know how this area could be declared, maybe a special nonphysical polygon or something automatic. Ideas?

Other small improvements include an arrow pointed in flag's direction and the possibility to spy the flagcarrier.

Share ideas and thoughts!
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Madness
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Madness »

I'm afraid there's only one solution to solve all these problems.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Tigro »

i agre with lousku, FT is many fun. Needs buff.
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Lousku
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lousku »

Madness wrote:I'm afraid there's only one solution to solve all these problems.
You are a very funny man and that was a very funny comment!
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Kopaka »

Lousku wrote:[*]Flag is given to a random player when carrier dies
This annoys me a great deal. If you've used a long time getting close to carrier and he just dies you can start over. Imo the best solution would be to give it to closest player, letting the flag stay on ground is nice idea aswell, but would mean a long time before someone gets it again. Most fair to give it to someone close because he's made an effort to try and get the flag.

That of course makes it harder to end orgies. Being killed if staying still too long is nice idea, but there should still some value in getting to a hard place with the flag and staying there for a while.
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roope
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by roope »

I like Kopaka's idea about giving the flag to the closest player, it's rewarding players for effort.
My solution to stopping orgies: designers should stop making levs with orgy spots o,oooo it's not that god damn hard, but many designer's do it again and again and again.

also, for lajk 999999th time, is there going to be any decision about allowing starter?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Zweq »

no orgy is of course very easy to design, but how to have "original feeling" in the lev while also avoiding orgys is surprisingly difficult. Ofc buble gum jesus teip smooth short hangs lev with gravity apples / killers on bottom solution always works, but then it feels like you're playing the same lev over and over again and all you need is one really well designed FT lev that is battled over and over again
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Ramone »

give to closest player would be total shit.

first. closest player might be on the other side of a wall, with gravi wrong direction or whatever. Accually not beeing real close at all (så nära men ändå så långt ifrån) so other player might be closer to accually get the flag.

Also its quite nice when flag gets suck in bad spot to be able to die to get flag out of there, with that rule flag would always stay in that fuckign shithole.

third, I dont care cause I dont like flag tags (much due to major lag for me, so cant really play. gets/looses flag when not even close anyone etc)

4th: Run all rules by me, cause obviously I have most common sense in the scene and I can make sure you dont do any stupid decicions. (like putting changes to FT over real important changes to EOL)

thats all.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by ribot »

I agree with you lousku that flagtag is really much fun, and I would love to see it becoming a bigger part of eol. I think it's definitely the most fun battles.

Your post addresses a lot of problems, without even explaining all of them. In order to get this situation solved, we could be a lot more constructive.

What can be done right now?
First of all, what can be done right now to improve the overall quality? That is level-design for sure. I've thought about this for a while, and I haven't yet found an ultimate level. There could be a tutorial for how to design a good level, as well as a separate discussion. as there are a loads of components to think about when designing a flat tag level. If we do this we can improve the general quality a lot.

Also, to be allowed to replay good flagtags. There was a discussion about this earlier. A flagtag is completely different depending on how many participants there are.

What are the possibilities in eol?
Maybe kopaka could tell.

What are the possibilities in elma2?
This should be everything. Though I think the most important thing is to have the arrow pointing towards the flag.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by analcactus »

and for me as nab important thing is to have the opportunity to spy 'the current flag holder'; yes i can f1+enter and then arrows but flag teleports somewhere once holder dies
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by gimp »

I agree that ft is the best and also your list of problems except Camping. Unless I misunderstand what you mean by camping. If camping is staying in a tough spot waiting until someone dies and you get random flag then giving flag to closest carrier takes care of that. But if camping means that you get to said tough spot with the flag and stay there then please dont try to "fix" this with some timer or something. If you get to the tough spot with the flag you deserve to camp there.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Pingywings »

nothing wrong with camping imo, its quite rewarding to spend ages trying to get to a hard spot and then getting the flag randomly once there. suddenly everyone in chat is like "lol cool spot" and all the players have a new challenge to get to you
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lousku »

I mostly meant camping in easily accessible places. It blocks flow through there and makes the battle less fun for everyone else. I guess people wouldn't do it if you could see the flag in freelook.
ribot wrote:Your post addresses a lot of problems, without even explaining all of them. In order to get this situation solved, we could be a lot more constructive.
Should I clarify something?
ribot wrote:There could be a tutorial for how to design a good level
I've been thinking about doing something like this. With flagtag design creativity doesn't seem to matter as much as planning (as opposed to designing other battles), so some tutorial might be a good idea. Dunno if I should be the one to make sash though.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by ribot »

Well some things you said just seem like complaining, I don't feel I need clarification.

The thing about tutorial... we can all add our ideas and we would all level up our skills about making these levs. Then the problems we bring up can be solved constructively. I think we should have a discussion about it.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Bjenn »

I haven't read all posts here, but best idea in a change to make FT better is to make "invulnerable" time.
Put maybe 1-2 seconds that after you have gotten the flag, it can not be taken from you.
This will make FT less annoying in small spots with many bikes, and stuff.

The thing about staying hidden from others reach in a while is a part of FT, it is the creators fault if fake and gay level. Do not try to change that.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lousku »

Bjenn wrote:I haven't read all posts here, but best idea in a change to make FT better is to make "invulnerable" time.
Put maybe 1-2 seconds that after you have gotten the flag, it can not be taken from you.
This will make FT less annoying in small spots with many bikes, and stuff.
Hm nice idea maybe. It would make quick situations with more than 2 players unclear, though.
Bjenn wrote:The thing about staying hidden from others reach in a while is a part of FT
Huh? I don't get what you mean.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Lee
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lee »

Just a quick question. In flag-tag battles, who starts with the flag? Is it RNG?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by FinMan »

a
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Lousku
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lousku »

Lee wrote:Just a quick question. In flag-tag battles, who starts with the flag? Is it RNG?
Yes
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Chris »

Pingywings wrote:nothing wrong with camping imo, its quite rewarding to spend ages trying to get to a hard spot and then getting the flag randomly once there. suddenly everyone in chat is like "lol cool spot" and all the players have a new challenge to get to you
Yip. Stuff like minimum speed is no solution.

In my opinion it's very simple, good ft lev=fun, bad lev=no fun. There no need to make new rules for ft. Beside the quality of lev, the only thing that can go wrong is when someone over or underestimate number of players who will play ft. If the level is right size for number of people who play it, many issues are solved like camping or orgies. If something goes wrong even good level might be unplayable. To sum it up: level designer must estimate number of people who will play ft and choose the right size for level. This is very important!
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Lee
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Lee »

Thanks FinMan. I have thought about it a lot and come to the conclusion that there is no possible way of running a flag-tag battle without the use of RNG.
I was thinking the flag at the beginning of a battle can exist in a 'dropped' state, ie. someone must collect it first. The flag could simply take the place of the exit object.
If a player with the flag dies, passing it on to another player randomly is just unfair. Passing it on to the closest player is also unfair, as that player may in fact be on the other side of a wall, as stated by Ramone. So the only fair thing I can think of is the flag is dropped in the place that the player dies, which means it needs to be collected by another (or the same) player. Now this could cause a problem if the player dies to a pit of killers or something. No one will want to get the flag; they'd die too. A solution to this is having a dropped flag respawn to where it started (the exit object's position) if no one is able to collect it. This could be after a set amount of time, like one minute, or a certain percentage of the battle time if the battle is a short one.
But having it respawn like that creates another problem. What if all the players go to the flag's start position to wait for the respawn. Who gets it then? I don't know...

That's my thought process. But I don't play flag-tags so I don't know everything about it.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by danitah »

Camping should be allowed only as close to start as possible, by camping i mean standing in the same spot all battle. Running away with the flag to some hard spot and staying there is fine imo. Many times I've felt like my own levels have been basically ruined because someone is standing in essential spot and every time flag bearer is heading that way, he is forced to lose flag and often orgies occur, very discouraging both for levmakers and players.
Ramone wrote:give to closest player would be total shit.

first. closest player might be on the other side of a wall, with gravi wrong direction or whatever. Accually not beeing real close at all (så nära men ändå så långt ifrån) so other player might be closer to accually get the flag.
That might happen sometimes, but usually there are not many walls separating players that much in ft levs. Also this would add another strategical element to fts that could be interesting. imo it would be best solution.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Tigro »

an idea: new battle type or sach:

Something like multi-flag tag. Battle starts, you play multi with someone, and entering the level will only make you see your multifriend, so the flagtag is actually 1v1 for every couple of players. Ofc there wouldn´t be any overall winner (abusing by playing multi with yourself and just waiting...), but you will be able to cruise smaller levels, with no elmasex orgies in one spot, and i guess this is what Balázs actually wanted FT to look like.

opinians?
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Tigro »

darn dublshitpost.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by danitah »

I don't think we need a new battle type, but it would be nice with the opportunity to play casual flag tag with other people without battle.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by ribot »

A lot of cool ideas here.

One idea for who to give the flag. Since the flag is given at random in the beginning, it could be given to another person that hasn't had it the next time. So each time a play who doesn't have the flag gets it, perhaps the one with lowest time. Then when everybody's had it, the one with lowest time can get it.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by k00 »

I have always wanted to have 1v1 flagtag duels. So that you could just duel someone like you start multi with someone. This would mean that you could play ft with someone without battle. Would be great way to pass time when no battles and a lot of fun in general. I also think 1v1 ft would be much better than these 20 player flagtags.
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by elmas »

Isn`t it possible if just chooses flag tag in options and plays multi with someone
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Re: Improvements to flagtag

Post by Zweq »

somekind of matchmaking system (I think that's what they call it in the industry?) with 2-n ppl sounds like an idea, we could still have our main battle queue, but a group of ppl could have their own battles if they so want. Well, maybe in 10 years
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