Elma 2 should have new internals

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 20 Oct 2015, 05:47

I am a bit surprised nobody has mentioned the idea of a new official list of internal levels in the elma 2 topic. I am inclined to believe that some people want a new list of internals. ever notice how people come out with packs of 54 all the time and they are played for awhile and then never played again? I mean the only way we could ever have new ones taken seriously is if everything about the internals stayed the same except the levels themselves. they dont even have to be fantastic levels (kinda like the current internals :p), its all a matter of perception.
for example:

1. the new internals takeover wr table on moposite
2. they come out simultaneously with a new version of elma (like when elma 2 comes out in 5 or 10 years)
3. they show up separately from the external levels, like the way they are listed now in our versions of elma.
4. Of course the best way they could be taken seriously is if Balazs, Casba and Mue were the only designers, but i dont know if that is possible to achieve.

I know some people aren't fond of the idea, but it really doesn't strike me as this insane idea when there is only one wr every few months, the time inbetween is getting longer and longer, and sl tools have basically figured the levels out. I feel like most things about EOL are great and I dont even see much of a need for an Elma 2 personally, but in my mind it would be put to good use if it had a new list of internals. New internals would bring about a lot of excitement from motivated players playing everyday and a bunch of bitching and moaning from old farts who dont play that much.

Out with the old, and in with the new, its been long enough.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 20 Oct 2015, 09:36

Well, all records in all activities gets harder to beat over time. Elma 2 is not a new elma. Its elma with new menus and better online options. Cant just make fan levels and call them internals wtf!? If we ever get a real Elma 2 new internals would be a nice addition. Would be better to get ppl to play more externals, to raise the value of externals. Some ppl talked about adding a few levelpacks (not new ones, but some classics) to Elma 2 as an own selection in the menus, the same way you wanted "the new fake never-to-be internals", that would be nice imo. Wrs are not supposed to be easy, making new internals because you want more even flow of updated wrs does not feel valid imo. Also SL tools figured nothing out, players did. Im all for getting new quality levelpacks to be played, but to call them something they arent, and can never be, just becase you (and others) want more moposite wr updates? Oh no!

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 20 Oct 2015, 18:09

I strongly disagree. Internals are the core of Elma, they are eternal, irreplaceable, untouchable and not to be messed with... They are just like God, except they actually exist.

kuchitsu · Post by **kuchitsu** » 20 Oct 2015, 18:46

Well, did the EOL pack work?

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 20 Oct 2015, 20:32

kuchitsu wrote:Well, did the EOL pack work?

Well EOL pack was just like any other levels. If levels are placed prominently like internals in elma then ez more people will play. I think elma2 should have new internals or at least more levels added to internals. Maybe balzas or someone can make few levs.

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 20 Oct 2015, 21:34

elma2 should have bad internals like bumpy journey, steep corner and sink removed! they are a disgrace!!

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 20 Oct 2015, 22:55

i wouldnt say add levels directly to normal internals cause then it could mess with the TT you know? more like home page could have some internals 1 and internals 2 or something perhaps. maybe smibu would consider adding something like this to elma 2 and abula would consider having new wr table on moposite. i can ask Mr. Rozsa to make new internal levs for community.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » 21 Oct 2015, 06:08

I'm not for a second set of Internals, but I think it would be nice to get some of that attention and put it into another set of levels, if only temporarily. One method of doing this is to include a menu item of an external level pack that cycles at the end of each month. Meh, maybe not.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 21 Oct 2015, 07:25

Lee wrote:I'm not for a second set of Internals, but I think it would be nice to get some of that attention and put it into another set of levels, if only temporarily. One method of doing this is to include a menu item of an external level pack that cycles at the end of each month. Meh, maybe not.

I like this idea! Maybe not every month, but every year perhaps? 54 designers get to send one lev each (so we get some beisik flat chrisish levs, some complex zebraish levs, some flowy insguyish levs, some tricky zamppeish levs etc..), and then at the end of every year there timez are frozen and archived, and a video is made or so to honor the record holders. I think this could motivate people to hoyl externals more, and would give lots of designers a chance to shine (my guess is the most loved levels won't be the hyper-planned super-designed ones..).

John · Post by **John** » 21 Oct 2015, 09:24

I agree Elma 2 would need new internals to feel fresh and new. The problem, as I see it, is that I don't want the new internals to feel like a Ramone pack, or zebra, or Igge, or Zero or anyone else. They have to feel independent and raw, but such levs are hard to make these days with 15y of Elma evolution in the back. Current internals have taken years and years to hoyl, the new internals need to have that extra dimension so that best styles arent found in a week. That's pretty challenging to pull off.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 21 Oct 2015, 09:33

John wrote:I agree Elma 2 would need new internals to feel fresh and new. The problem, as I see it, is that I don't want the new internals to feel like a Ramone pack, or zebra, or Igge, or Zero or anyone else. They have to feel independent and raw, but such levs are hard to make these days with 15y of Elma evolution in the back. Current internals have taken years and years to hoyl, the new internals need to have that extra dimension so that best styles arent found in a week. That's pretty challenging to pull off.

Agree but then again, people would find many internal styles in a week if they were released now. A new pack of levels will never be in the same category with internals. There is way too much nostalgy behind those levels. In World Cup 6 there was an actual Csaba Rozsa level and it was one of the more/most disliked levels in the entire cup. A "new" internal level doesn't get any closer than that..
My opinion: Same internals and few external packs as a default.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Oct 2015, 10:38

How about using the same polygons as the current internals but moving/removing and adding apples or moving the start or flower? For example having to go around the whole thing at labpro bnc, not using the pipe in headbanger, flat track left to right etc. Maybe HeHe should be left first through that maze and flower back at start. Actually I think this is exactly the kind of solution I want, now that I think of it.

Bjenn · Post by **Bjenn** » 21 Oct 2015, 11:10

Apple Harvest upside down! I actually like Johns idea.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 21 Oct 2015, 12:36

Zero wrote:
John wrote:I agree Elma 2 would need new internals to feel fresh and new. The problem, as I see it, is that I don't want the new internals to feel like a Ramone pack, or zebra, or Igge, or Zero or anyone else. They have to feel independent and raw, but such levs are hard to make these days with 15y of Elma evolution in the back. Current internals have taken years and years to hoyl, the new internals need to have that extra dimension so that best styles arent found in a week. That's pretty challenging to pull off.
Agree but then again, people would find many internal styles in a week if they were released now. A new pack of levels will never be in the same category with internals. There is way too much nostalgy behind those levels. In World Cup 6 there was an actual Csaba Rozsa level and it was one of the more/most disliked levels in the entire cup. A "new" internal level doesn't get any closer than that..
My opinion: Same internals and few external packs as a default.

If some packs are included by default they are no longer externals. Personally I don't see any reason why we can't add any new pack(s) to Elma2.

@Igge: I like that idea of pack designed by 54 people.

Ruben · Post by **Ruben** » 21 Oct 2015, 14:14

Annual pack made by 54 people, or maybe 2 levs each from 27 people. Sounds fun, keeps the competetive levs relatively fresh, gets my vote.

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 21 Oct 2015, 15:56

How about extracting the levels from Elma iOS and remodelling some, not all, of those levels to work with current Elma, ie. no teleportation, moving objects etc.
I don't know if any of them are good candidates, but worth checking out since these levels are not made by any of us

We would only redesign them a bit to better fit the original elma.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 21 Oct 2015, 16:22

John wrote:How about using the same polygons as the current internals but moving/removing and adding apples or moving the start or flower? For example having to go around the whole thing at labpro bnc, not using the pipe in headbanger, flat track left to right etc. Maybe HeHe should be left first through that maze and flower back at start. Actually I think this is exactly the kind of solution I want, now that I think of it.

Bjenn wrote:Apple Harvest upside down! I actually like Johns idea.

I was working on sach pack long ago. Did apple harvest upside down, headbanger from bottom going up, he he maze etc. It's not as fun as you'd think though.. Although I remember Markku pulled off a sick one-way route in AH)

Post by **SveinR** » 21 Oct 2015, 17:43

Xiphias wrote:How about extracting the levels from Elma iOS and remodelling some, not all, of those levels to work with current Elma, ie. no teleportation, moving objects etc.
I don't know if any of them are good candidates, but worth checking out since these levels are not made by any of us We would only redesign them a bit to better fit the original elma.

Pretty nice idea

I don't know if these levels are too "platformy" to work in Elma, but at least they have the advantage that they are surely made with no knowledge of what styles should work in normal Elma!

In general I would like to keep the internals as is, but perhaps there could be "Classic Internals" and "New Internals" or something, so both would get their fair share of the attention.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 22 Oct 2015, 13:42

SveinR wrote:
Xiphias wrote:How about extracting the levels from Elma iOS and remodelling some, not all, of those levels to work with current Elma, ie. no teleportation, moving objects etc.
I don't know if any of them are good candidates, but worth checking out since these levels are not made by any of us We would only redesign them a bit to better fit the original elma.
Pretty nice idea I don't know if these levels are too "platformy" to work in Elma, but at least they have the advantage that they are surely made with no knowledge of what styles should work in normal Elma!

In general I would like to keep the internals as is, but perhaps there could be "Classic Internals" and "New Internals" or something, so both would get their fair share of the attention.

Good ideas.

Juish · Post by **Juish** » 28 Oct 2015, 19:44

Of course elma 2 should have new internals. Does super mario bros 2 have different core levels?

the only thing about elma 2 that should remain the same are the physics. They don't have to be identical either. example Across -> elma time between key pressing was advanced. So maybe just less time between volts to wait for next one. add Left and right alo standard, maybe a new volt would be nice like a "semi volt" (half rotating volt) or a "dead volt" (high pressure but slow spin). New ways to maneuver around the courses without losing the feel of elma that we all love. I could go without the moving killers, speed/slowmo apples, moving apples ect... although they do sound fun as well.

(funny ones = invisible polygons that when touched with a wheel appear, although they will always show up on the mini-map from the start lala
and = "donkey kong killers" at the top of the level at a chosen spot, killers fall and roll down through the level at random time intervals until you finish

)

Labs · Post by **Labs** » 28 Oct 2015, 20:00

Donkey kong elma sounds nice, others plz no.

niN · Post by **niN** » 28 Oct 2015, 20:25

Juish wrote:... maybe a new volt would be nice like a "semi volt" (half rotating volt) or a "dead volt" (high pressure but slow spin). New ways to maneuver around the courses without losing the feel of elma that we all love. I could go without the moving killers, speed/slowmo apples, moving apples ect... although they do sound fun as well...

"duck" function, the kuski ducks to avod hitting head

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 28 Oct 2015, 23:38

guns, it needs guns

Lee · Post by **Lee** » 29 Oct 2015, 00:08

It would be cool if your bike takes damage over time and if it becomes destroyed you get off and run instead. Collecting apples will maintain your energy so you don't slow down too much.

Bjenn · Post by **Bjenn** » 29 Oct 2015, 07:28

What if you had a pet Monstertruck which helps you collect apples in pipes and kills killers,
and then it could rain chocolate.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:33

Stop fucking calling it Elma 2. It will still be the same fucking elasto mania. It will not be a new Elma. We (the scene) could create new official levelpacks, but we will not create Elma 2 and we will not create new internals. Ppls ideas for new internals in this thread so bad I seriously started to cry. Dont kill Elma. You understand so little. At least try to expand your understanding of events outside of your locked down brain. Please let Elma live, please!?

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:35

Ramone wrote:Stop fucking calling it Elma 2. It will still be the same fucking elasto mania. It will not be a new Elma. We (the scene) could create new official levelpacks, but we will not create Elma 2 and we will not create new internals. Ppls ideas for new internals in this thread so bad I seriously started to cry. Dont kill Elma. You understand so little. At least try to expand your understanding of events outside of your locked down brain. Please let Elma live, please!?

thx.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:36

(I understand the latter posts are jokes, Im reffering to the earlier posts ppl actually made with a straight face)

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:47

Zero wrote:
Ramone wrote:Stop fucking calling it Elma 2. It will still be the same fucking elasto mania. It will not be a new Elma. We (the scene) could create new official levelpacks, but we will not create Elma 2 and we will not create new internals. Ppls ideas for new internals in this thread so bad I seriously started to cry. Dont kill Elma. You understand so little. At least try to expand your understanding of events outside of your locked down brain. Please let Elma live, please!?
thx.

this

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 29 Oct 2015, 12:10

Ramone wrote:Ppls ideas for new internals in this thread so bad I seriously started to cry.

I shed a few tears too.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 29 Oct 2015, 18:13

Well of course there is the possibility your brains are the ones on lockdown. After all you are the ones opposed to any real new ideas coming in, perhaps you just want elma 1.xx's updates for the rest of time until you die? Who knows when, and maybe it's not now, but someday the levels will be exhausted and new internals will be in order. I'm saying perhaps that day can come whenever elma
2 comes out, it's all subjective anyways, maybe a poll would be the fairest way. A real new version of any game needs a new story line, as every new sequel to a game has always had, elma is not an rpg obviously, but it's internals are the story to it. My mind is on lockdown when it comes to ideas of changing the volts, moving killers, etc., don't know which mans were joking about what to be honest.
If you don't want new internals simply because your afraid they will not be like the old ones made 15 years ago, well you're right they wont be, and I personally like that idea and maybe some others do too. I just feel like the main reason people don't want new is mostly because some part of the grieving process has begun even at the thought. Maybe let the idea sit and see if you can accept the idea, but it seems like people are black and white on the subject. So maybe only fair way would be to poll, of course it doesn't matter in the end if the person creating elma 2 isn't on board, maybe smibu will bring up the topic up himself at some point?

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 29 Oct 2015, 23:09

Oh my god!

You just dont get it. Not at all. And right now I am too tired to explain. Also its shit annoying to type long texts on phone, will be getting pc back in a couple of weeks or so. Will reply later.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 30 Oct 2015, 04:50

Not sure how you could convince me Ramone. The heart wants what the heart wants, but I appreciate your passion.

John · Post by **John** » 31 Oct 2015, 15:27

Argh writing on my phone. I agree with gimp's most recent long post, I don't see how discussing new possibilities for internals could be seen as having locked down brains, rather the opposite. Then if you are so passionate about keeping it the way it is that's up to you. But like someone said, name 1 sequel that has been exactly like the previous installment and if Elma2 came out and everything would suck then people would naturally be coming back to Elma again anyway.

Ruben · Post by **Ruben** » 31 Oct 2015, 19:10

DLC! It's the solution to everything. The core level set should be kept as "Classic," then new internals can be created in new packs of 55 (54 levels and 1 unfinishable promo lev). Maybe once a year. Now these aren't ordinary levpacks, but special ones created by revered levmakers. A review process can be put in place to stop bad or too complex levs from coming through.

Honestly, this seems like the best option.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 31 Oct 2015, 21:09

Ok. Abit drunk and writing on phone, will probably forget all I wanna say, also too annoying to do proper quotes here. First off (because some of you didnt read my prev post) it is NOT A FUCKING NEW ELMA, IT IS NOT FUCKING ELMA 2. IT IS THE SAME FUCKING ELMA. Balazs is still using the Elasto Mania brand for the new iPhone version. You cannot fucking make a sequel to that you fucking morons. It will be maybe EOL 1,3 OR EOL 1,4 or whatever version we are at. Ok? Ppl that find Elasto Mania for first time for iPhone might search for Elasto Mania for PC and find orig Elma. And then find some bastard Elma2 WTF?!? ARE YOU THAT FUCKING STUPID? DO YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE CREATOR OF TJIS AMAZING GAME WE ALL LOVE? Stupid question, sorry, obv you dont, awesome. The fans/players could make new internals in the scenario Balazs would want that (allthough I am quite sure they would suck). If you make new internals they would not only be for the scene (the current scene) but for all new players. Ppl would dl elma 2 and "the new internals" would be the first levels they would play. Their introduction to the scene. One of the major reason we all still play this game is because how awesome the internals are for new players. Check EOL01.lev, it had tons of finishes, why? Because those are included in the EOL.zip. New internals means so much more than you realize. If levels like under pressure was a new Internal new players would not stay in the scene (what I think!). Also both serious projects by the scene to make "official" levels failed quite bad (Olp (0lp) and EOL). Also the current ruling democracy idea to let everyone make a fucking level? Is that how you make a good pack??? Doesnt matter who would make level(s). Only quality matters. And in making new internals doesnt matter if they look like current internals, or if they have possibility for style developement or all that crap you talk about, its just your romantic idea to relive the magic days of the internals (but in fact, the magic days has been since release of elma and they are still). The internals has to be good for new players. I think new players learn new games faster now than im 2000, so there could be some "harder" levels maybe, but still, new players in EOL still struggles to finnish all internals. Bikecontrol aint easy, the small difference of braking 0.1 (or even less) longer or shorter makes a massive difference. Most ppl that make levels dont realize that they are hard because basic bike control feels so normal to them. Making more official packs that are in a default external menu (included in the new EOL) could be a great idea. Annual pack could also be an awesome idea, but to let everyone make 2 levels each or whatever was suggested, would not be the recipie for a quality pack. Someone made Super Mario Brothers comparsion, wow, really? The original Mario 2 (later released as The Lost Levels) was never released as Mario 2 in the rest of the world, because it was basicly the same game, only had new levels. So thanks for that comparsion, Mario 2 with new levels was not deemed good enough to be Mario 2, so you think your bastard child deserves to be named Elma 2, with "new internals" that will suck anyway. No thank you. I assume you will still not get it. I have respect for Elma, you could have respect for it too.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 1 Nov 2015, 00:23

To attack my my logic or reasoning is fine. But to be rash and mean attacking my intelligence or assuming my level of respect of the game has nothing to do with anything, it's just being mean. Your post doesn't even warrant a response.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » 1 Nov 2015, 00:52

Why do new "official" level packs have to have 54 levels? So stupid.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 1 Nov 2015, 00:53

I fully agree with Ramone's point. You can't just make some random new level pack and call it Internals... Internals will never lose their magic, they have been played for 15 years and will be played and improved for at least another 100 years, you can bet your life on it. You can't just bury them because you want to try something new. Also, if you replaced them with something else, why do you think people would play it more than for example the 0lp or EOL level packs? Just because it would be part of Elma? No way. At best people would play it for a couple of months and then forget about it and try to get the good old Internals back.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 1 Nov 2015, 01:13

I addressed what would need to be different about these levels in my first post. 0lps and EOL pack were treated like externals, and thus were played that way. I agree there would be no point if nobody else would be on board with it. That's why a poll would be useful.

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 1 Nov 2015, 01:19

The thing is, why do we need an actual elma 2 when we already have a great game called elma. For it to be an actual sequel it would indeed need something special in it, but this doesn't seem to be going that way anyway and I'm fine with a more compatible version with some fancy shit added, with the ability to add something when it's needed etc.

What comes to "new internals" or something, you need something really buttraped and wicked for it to work for a longer time with the current level of skill. And then the styles are going to be insane, zweq and madik on top in half of them, other nabs sharing the rest of the cake. You would also need someone to make them, decide who makes them, balasz to give his acceptance (which would of course be "yes" in most cases), etc etc. I think "an official pack a year" sounds like the best choice out there what comes to the levpack thingy.

I can see why some people may think people are just brainwashed to think internals are good levels though. No flow and all that shit, what an shit levels. ¨=)

e: Also, EOL pack was bullshit, that's why it wasnt played. Bad level choices (or just nothing to pick from, but seen some nice rejected ones) all over the place.

Ruben · Post by **Ruben** » 1 Nov 2015, 02:01

Lee wrote:Why do new "official" level packs have to have 54 levels? So stupid.

54 is the (completely arbitrary and random) holy Elma number.

ofta · Post by **ofta** » 1 Nov 2015, 02:54

i agree that elma 2 as a hobby project sounds lame and that "new internals" made by fanboys makes no sense. the thing is that i actually like the iphone/ipad version of elma(both the design and the new features with moving stuff and so on), even though the game itself is very limited, the touch control sucks, and so on. my suggestion is to contact balazs and say something like: "hey sorry that iphone/ipad elma didn't really sell that well, how much money would you need to port that version to pc, add more levels, include a level editor, battles, blah blah blah". and than all mans could pay like a small amount of money to support. also i think it is important that the game is NOT free and that there is some kind of modern log-in system to avoid piracy and virtual shoplifting. i think it's a solution that would make everyone happy, maybe. it doesn't have to be 54 levels, could be like 25 or 18 or 32 or whatever, but i think it is important it is made by balazs' people. that would at least be a clean elma 2. what do you guys think?

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 1 Nov 2015, 03:47

ofta wrote:i agree that elma 2 as a hobby project sounds lame and that "new internals" made by fanboys makes no sense. the thing is that i actually like the iphone/ipad version of elma(both the design and the new features with moving stuff and so on), even though the game itself is very limited, the touch control sucks, and so on. my suggestion is to contact balazs and say something like: "hey sorry that iphone/ipad elma didn't really sell that well, how much money would you need to port that version to pc, add more levels, include a level editor, battles, blah blah blah". and than all mans could pay like a small amount of money to support. also i think it is important that the game is NOT free and that there is some kind of modern log-in system to avoid piracy and virtual shoplifting. i think it's a solution that would make everyone happy, maybe. it doesn't have to be 54 levels, could be like 25 or 18 or 32 or whatever, but i think it is important it is made by balazs' people. that would at least be a clean elma 2. what do you guys think?

I am way too addicted to elma as the way it is to be excited about any kind of changes to the core gameplay. This idea on the other hand makes more sense than any other "elma 2" suggestion I've seen so far. It would at least be a real sequel, not the same game with some new features.

Labs · Post by **Labs** » 1 Nov 2015, 07:16

'new internals' would never get the same feeling as norm internals, cos 'new internal' levs would be external levs.

umiz · Post by **umiz** » 1 Nov 2015, 09:49

Ofcourse Elma II should have new internals. And I'm gonna make them all, with crazy heads of men, with weird creatures, with amazing styles possible, with misplaced apples, invisible polygons and v-sync possibilities. One level will be called: "Tribute to Ramone for loving Elma2 concept". Nah, just kidding. I think they should be made by ONE secret level maker chosen by Balazs. Either it will be great or it will a total catastrophe!

Ramone wrote: DO YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE CREATOR OF TJIS AMAZING GAME WE ALL LOVE?

Do you think the creator Balazs have respect for the community when doing iOS-version? Everything the community didn't want he implement in that sucky version.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 1 Nov 2015, 11:34

Do people realize that it will be just inclusion of new level pack in game? I believe Elma 2 is going to natively support level packs, so any new internals will be just level pack that everyone will have with Elma 2 download (and it doesn't need to be the only pack included in Elma 2 be default). If someone doesn't like it for whatever reason, it can be called uninternals and be placed in different place than normal internals. If you don't like, don't fucking play it.

Pab · Post by **Pab** » 1 Nov 2015, 15:15

Ye i thought that too chris, just a new section to enter and play new default levels, and with the same "finish or skip to play next" style. I would make a super huge pack with internalish levels with as many levels as possible, collecting the best levels from everyone. Something like 500 levels, 10 skips allowed maybe

With the internal levels pack style, with fun unique levels with normal or "planned" routes for everyone poss to finish. Starting with the easier levels ofc, etc. Trying to mimic the real elma experience.

edit: i dont wanna read all the post ;f i thought elma2 idea was actually just EOL2, to make a better online version. Not trying to change the game itself, but the idea of a new default pack is great imo. Too bad that the greatest designers are against any change.

gimp · Post by **gimp** » 1 Nov 2015, 23:16

Yeah maybe I should clarify I don't believe the initial internals should be replaced or removed or something. But really the definiton of "internals" as a noun is just "inner parts or features". I go back to my original post in saying it would be great if they were separate from externals in the game features, has prominent wr table link on moposite, came out simultaneously with a new version (elma 2 or whatever you want to call it), and if possible was made or partially made by csaba, mue or balazs themselves. Whether or not all of these things are possible or doable i dont know, but if you wanted a pack that was as close to internals as possible in terms of being long lasting then i think any or all of these things would help make that happen.

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 2 Nov 2015, 11:11

"1. the new internals takeover wr table on moposite"

Gimp wrote this.