Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

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kuchitsu
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Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by kuchitsu »

Maybe you're like me and sometimes you feel like when it comes to levelmaking you're very much stuck in your tropes that you just keep recycling. Like you don't really innovate anymore and just keep remaking the same kind of level over and over again, so to say. What do you do when this happens to you? Do you have any special tricks that help you spark some creativity and create something new and unique?

I understand that some people are simply more creative than others by nature and there are no magical recipes. But still there must be some ways to overcome this problem at least to an extent?
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Zero »

Start approaching the levelmaking differently. For instance spam apples to an empty level and make a level around it. You will sure as hell make a something differently :p Making different visuals makes a big difference as well! For example try to make a good-looking lev without grass nor pictures.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Lousku »

I konkidinkally wrote some related stuff a few days ago. Tropic was gonna be about sharing level design concepts or something, I guess this is beisikly the same.

Some concepts:
  • Lev with a big shortcut (or many of them) that's shorter (duh) but slower than the long way.
  • Lev with visual styles and shapes that are the opposite of what you find pleasing. When every polygon adheres to your personal visual rules, this can result in different levels playability-wise too. Even if you don't do visuals consciously, you probably have a recognisable style. Try to veer from that.
  • Lev that has no apples but forces you to go back and forth in the same area in interesting ways to finish.
  • I oversimplify lev design into two categories: either you design polygons and let the player do whatever, or you design playstyles and suit polygons to them. Another way of looking at it: either you design obstacles, or you make your polygons give way to the mopo. If you recognise your design in either of those, try the opposite and see what happens.
  • This one is annoying so I've done it a thousand times. Put an apple just out of reach, baiting for a shortcut that you have no idea about. Just as long as it won't be a simple bounce or brutal.
    - pasibility 1: Some pro misjudged their skill and wasted the balle on trying it, and some nab is happy about winning the normal way.
    - pasibility 2: It turns out to be possible by some funky style you didn't see coming. At least I get somehow more proud when my level brings out cool stuff I didn't think of.
    - pasibility 3: It turns out to be actually pasibel with a rage-inducing brutalbounce. Zero wins and hates the lev, as does everyone else.
  • And related to the previous thing but not so annoying: If you don't see a reason to force players to go through a spot, just don't put an apple there. The only reason is to give them a spot to check their apple time. You might be limiting their routes/styles or just giving unnecessary hints. In worst case the apple is easy to applebug or skip by accident. Unnecessar
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Lousku »

Zero wrote:Making different visuals makes a big difference as well! For example try to make a good-looking lev without grass nor pictures.
This is kinda big for me. Visuals for me are most often nat about some gak that is added after the "effective" polygons are done. All polygons are somewhat visual (even if others hate the style =D). That way you can change how your levs are played by changing visual style.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by sunl »

Thanks Lousku for post - very helpful
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Lousku »

Apparently I had no idea what the last point was about and never finished writink it. "Unnecessar" is now a word.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Grace »

I always faced this issue - I can make attractive and fairly consistently high quality levels; but I've never really been a creative level designer and most of my levels don't require creativity regarding style conceptualisation.

Typically my levels all follow a similar format:
  1. Some gimmick/trick to start the level
  2. Highly chiselled and specifically placed polygons
  3. Highly tested for smoothness of driving for each style if they are played well.
  4. Always multi-styled, but artificial styles (IE I have designed them to be there. My levels very rarely produce unseen styles.)
  5. Typically 2 or 3 layers vertically but never extremely difficult to traverse.
  6. Never ultra long and typically not ultra short

Some of the times where I've tried to stray away from my tropes have ended up with poorer results; rather than just increasing my level making versatility.

That said, my tropes may keep me out of the upper echelon of level designers, but I'll always be no more than 1 or 2 steps below that level and I can always reliably make an enjoyable and playable level, which is more important to me. I don't have the extreme successes that a level designer like Ramone or Zero may have; but I also never have those levels that fall flat and are plainly not fun to play.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by kuchitsu »

Yeah, I think we probably stay within our tropes for a reason. We know that we can make them work from our previous experiences, so naturally that's the direction our brain chooses and it can be kinda hard to resist. After making so many levels, avoiding your habits requires a conscious effort I guess.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, keep them coming!
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Zero »

My only consistent levelmaking style was back in belma when I made coke levels. Back then people often complained how bad the levels are due to the planned tricks and the lack of styles.

Forcing myself to change my levelmaking style resulted to hundreds of levels that are pure garbage. It's still hard for me to make a decent normal level without any extra effort. And it's been so long since I made coke levs that I can't make those either :D

Experimental designing can be really fun and challenging but for you (Kuchi and Haruhi) I just have to say that you already make amazing levels. I personally can never get a flow in my levels just like that. I'm thinking that if you want to make something new you could try to make your normal levels "with a twist". Some detail that changes the pattern while still having the "Kuchi-look"

Just look at umiz levels. The pattern he has used in the past and still does is not too different but I dare say that his levels will never get boring. It's always a joy.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Lee »

My levels suck major ball sack, and I'm always looking for methods to create more playable levels. Interesting tips in this topic. Thanks guys.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by kuchitsu »

Well, I think very highly of umiz and his levels but still I'd say that their similarity is definitely a negative, and a kinda serious one. I remember saying the same about insguy, which even led to him experimenting with a different style, which I thought was really interesting. I don't know, it just feels like some of us could do so much more if we just stopped rehashing our favorite concepts and approached levelmaking with a more creative mindset. Or maybe it's better to be a master of one style rather than a jack of all trades, or however the saying goes. It's very much up to debate I guess. Oh, and thanks for the kind words. :)
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by insane guy »

It seems that this topic has shifted a bit from "being stuck" to general levmaking tips. I will try to adress both subjects. Please have in mind that I am lazy and almost exclusively make battle levs, where the playability doesn't have to withstand months or years of höyling.

When you're stuck:
  • 1. Try making the outer polygon with your eyes closed. Then try to find an interesting route to visit all places. Maybe put apples at awkward positions so you have to think outside of the box.
    2. Try listening to different types of music while making a lev. For me this always makes a huge difference regarding flow, difficulty and sometimes even the look.
    3. Ask random people (roomates, gf, cat) to place apples in your lev. This turns out to be fun and very challenging.
Over years and years of making levs I have developed some kind of formula that I repeat over and over again. This is why my levs are all very similar. It's basically a random combination of the same few tricks. The reason why many people seem to still like them might be because I follow a set of more or less strict rules. I call it

insguys (balle) lev making manifesto:
  • 1. Only make levs that you would like to play yourself. The day you will see a 30 min impsy uphill FF by insguy, please remind me that I should go fuck myself.
    2. Never include a part where you think: "Some pro will figure it out." This always turns out to be shit! You are propably pro or semi-pro yourself so if you can't find a good style, it's likely there is none. Or, with all the exposure to sick replays, styles and levels that has come through using eol (and more recently recsourse), you at least know what pros can do and what requires Zweq and sl.
    3. Test your levs. Then test again. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for super intense testing of every possible move (my inra001-999 series was 80% random, untested levs). But to really check the playability of a lev you should at least finish the lev with three different times. Shit. OK. Good. Also try a very good run to see if you die wen you have too much speed in certain areas. Nothing more annoying than that.
    4. Never make levs hoping for a pro to be around. (This one is hard actually). Of course it's nice to get a sick replay and it might even be considerd a "waste" of a nice lev if you start it at European nighttime with only three or four players. But this is the wrong approach: Make your levs playable even for the greatest nabs and learn from spying them. If you include too hard shortcuts/styles the majority of players will hate your lev.
    5. Beware of "editor blindness"! This happens a lot. You make a lev and just know the styles and moves because, well, you made the lev after all. But to everyone else (except Zero maybe) this is a brand new lev and obvious styles may not be so obvious. People have to test a lot and might even be oblivious of the easiest+fastest style. Editor blindness can result in: You getting mad at people for being too stupid and people getting angry at you for making shit lev. Try to avoid it or just accept that it happens.
    6. Get into the action quick. Standart move: Wheel against wall and start with brake+volt to go down, this way you gain speed quickly. Try variations and other ways to gain speed at start.
    7. Don't fuck up the end. How many times have I read: "nice lev insguy but fuck that end!" If you think it's too hard, make it easier. It's simple. The longer the lev, the easier the end should be.
    8. Improve your levs by spying nabs. Simple. If you haven't tried, do it!
    9. Get your balle times right. Although the battle duration has always been a subject of great discussion I belive the general public prefers to have 2-8 minutes too long balle instead of constantly feeling the clock ticking. If only ramone is online you can start 10 secs flat track 60 mins no problem.
Of course I fuck up at least one of these rules in any of my levs. But every now and then everything works together and a gem is born.

Please have in mind that these are just the rules that I follow. This is not a definite list on how to make good levels!
Last edited by insane guy on 23 Feb 2016, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by ville_j »

insane guy wrote:
  • 6. Get into the action quick. Standart move: Wheel against wall and start with brake+volt to go down, this way you gain speed quickly. Try variations and other ways to gain speed at start.
No please, I wish everyone just stopped doing this. It adds nothing to the level or playability and causes just problems while höyling the level.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by FinMan »

insane guy's rule 2 is one of the most important things, i wish some people (not only ilkka) understood this one.

Though, I agree with ville_j, giving a player a few seconds to relax before the actual action starts makes playing/höyling way more relaxed and you don't have to esc within 0,2 sec if you fuck up the setup etc. Instead you can just hit that enter and chill. Doing volt+brake setups also results in retarded 0,03 faster start styles which make the battles a lot less relaxing. I would suggest avoiding those, same thing with drop starts. Sometimes even skipping shorter levels (or I was when played more battles) because the level had one of these horrible features.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Lousku »

insane guy wrote:2. Never include a part where you think: "Some pro will figure it out." This always turns out to be shit! You are propably pro or semi-pro yourself so if you can't find a good style, it's likely there is none. Or, with all the exposure to sick replays, styles and levels that has come through using eol (and more recently recsourse), you at least know what pros can do and what requires Zweq and sl.
I really disagree. Sometimes it turns out shit, but my best levs are result of doing just that. I'm not imaginative enough to force interesting styles so it's best to leave it open and force players to create their own styles. Example: limpsy01.lev. Theer is no way I could plan a lev like that.

Testing generally makes spying less interesting too. I don't want to see everything go according to plan, I want to be surprised. Probably a bit selfish.

Your rules seem to focus on making levs enjoyable for as many people as pasibel, while I usually try to make something that gives interesting unique results (though usually fail at teh). Ofc these are far from mutually exclusive, just different goals.

btw, I think thise "general levmaking tips" fit the tropic perfectly because you can think of them as "if you're stuck, see if any of this is new and interesting to you"
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by FinMan »

Oh, and about 2 I am not saying you should plan everything. I mean don't leave the level unfinishable or really hard for you and just think it's because you suck at the game, the pros will enjoy it. Level doesn't become more fun or entertaining if you make it more hard. Make it fun for everyone, try to finish and cruise in it so that you enjoy it and make sure everyone is able to finish it (in most cases).

One thing that's good to keep in mind is that you often want to leave unfun shortcuts out, for example brutal and bounce shortcuts tend to decide battle by themselves without a lot of enjoyment involved. Also pipe shortcuts are often considered unfun, especially tight ones with bad entrances/exits.

It's good to sometimes just dick around with the mouse for a while and make some really retarded shapes etc, stuff you don't expect to work and then make them work. Just make something.

Another thing that a lot of people are (seem to be) hesitant to do is random surfaces, like flat trackish surfaces in un-ft levels. Those surely are worth trying out if you never do it, in any kind of levels.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Sla »

Interesting topic. Im making levs after a long time and while editing and testing i thought: "Is ppl going to like this shit? Wtf am i doing?" And finally got decent lev (I hope).
I wont add almost nothing cuz everything in topic is right and i agree. But the most important thing imo, lev must be ez to finish. Doesnt matter with the best style or the slow one. I hate even my levs when a trick is too complicated.
Its very fun to do right/fast moves and finishing the lev without much effort. Ofc, to get a very good time, we will need more than that.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by BlaZtek »

Well well, you can't really say: "This is the rules of how to make a Level." One should not limit ppls mind like that.

Also theres a big difference from balle Levels and other Levels.

I make my balle Levels in a way I have been evolving over the years. I grab the vertex tool and just make lines and polygons.
As I go along I think, now I want the kuski to go upwards the Level, now I want him to og left/Down, and Draw that way. I add various of common shapes along the path.

No need for testing after I have finished the "sircle"
I just add appels on spots the kuski will Reach.

Flower should ALWAYS be easy to Reach. Thats my first "rule" The other rule is that Level must be "playable"(not so hard to finish) UNless it's an FF.

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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Chris »

Testing isn't necessary for most of levels, sometimes it just kills creativity. Not every level needs to be about 1 minute long, well tested mutlistyle lev. You can't really be creative if you make basically one type of battle all the time. People really rarely try other battle types than normal, pipe or ff. Also you can add new dimension to level if you start it as crippled battle. Don't be afraid of starting anything. Be open minded. I started few one wheel apple battles for example. Don't care too much about your reputation as a levelmaker. Not everyone is going to be new Ramone. If you want to be creative you need to take risks. Beside that not everyone expect you to be creative every time you start new level. That's impossible, so don't try too hard to be creative every time you make new level.
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Bjenn »

Chris wrote:You can't really be creative if you make basically one type of battle all the time.
I laafed xD
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by Chris »

Bjenn wrote:
Chris wrote:You can't really be creative if you make basically one type of battle all the time.
I laafed xD
True, but I don't try to be creative ever time I start level. :D
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by insane guy »

BlaZtek wrote:Well well, you can't really say: "This is the rules of how to make a Level." One should not limit ppls mind like that.
I agree, and in case you're referring to my manifesto, it applies only to me. Would be boring if everyone made levs following the same rules. But there might be one or two interesting points in there. Updated my post so I don't sound like I try to tell ppl how to make levs :)
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Re: Getting out of the levelmaking comfort zone

Post by ofta »

i've always been thinking there's 2 kinds of !lev 10 formulas: the first 1 is just the very flowy, feel-good kind of lev where everything just feels great and dopamine bug bounces through your brain. the other kind of !lev 10 type of lev is more complex, style-finding based lev with multiple equal fast but still very different kind of routes and styles and when top 3 are really tight yet very different style. so my tips to make good levs is to pick 1 of this 2 kind of levs and decide if you wanna go for flowy or brain style.
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