Why is there so little elma theory?

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Sunshine
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Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sunshine »

i have played several games quite competitively and they all have a wealth of knowledge and theorycrafting written about them. starcraft 2 has people calculating maximum number of workers to have per base before its better to expand and how many workers should you transfer and build orders down to a second for several minutes from beginning of the game. fps players are talking about learning the spray patterns of each gun and what game settings to use (this could be compared to fps settings on internals in elma) etc. granted its not as easy to put down elma skills in writing compared to these games where every action has a concrete effect, you make more workers you get more income in the future, you buy this item you get more power vs certain type of enemy or survive easier, but even driving games have very sophisticated theory. much of it comes from the real world ofc because simulators are so good these days you can apply stuff from real world formula/rally, not so much for elma though.

even simple stuff like making the bike rotate by braking and then applying gas to get a better landing on a slope, that comes naturally to most advanced players i dont think i have ever seen it written down anywhere in any sort of "formal" way. closest i can think of is the example i mentioned earlier about fps for internals. if someone wanted me to explain how to brutal i dont think i could even do it very well because i never learned the theory behind it, i just intuitively learned it. probably if some nab asked how to brutal the most common answer would be "go watch rec x" or be told to download some practice level. if you would get same level of theory as other games have i think we would have answers to questions like "is it better to volt or turn in straight pipes?" (the answer i think is it doesnt matter but no one has tested it and put the results anywhere) and when its better to use one or two wheel hang, how to do full volt in uphills without dying etc etc. with battles etc ofc there are million situations and different slopes etc variables for bounces for example but i think there exists many general situations where it is useful to know the optimal way of driving.

i think there is distinct lack of interest in elma scene towards these kinds of questions and everyone seems to just drive without much thought (me included). i find it weird phenomena because my experience from other games is that people are very interested in learning the most optimal ways of playing and are asking a lot of questions within the community. like i said i notice this from myself also, i never really set a goal to learn brutaling better etc whereas in other games i usually try to get better at specific things im bad at.

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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by kuchitsu »

Maybe because reading stuff instead of learning it by yourself ruins the magic? Like many people never figure out how to solve Rubik's Cube by themselves and instead just read tutorials: I never understood that, defeats the whole point imo. :P But I guess some people are adventurers and some are optimizers.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Pab »

Vermin Supreme wrote:..."is it better to volt or turn in straight pipes?"
I once tryed to test this, made a battle on pipestyl.lev short straight 9 seconds long pipe. I think the short answer there was: no noticable difference at all. I think volting was quicker like by 0.01 in average, or in other words, it felt like it was easier to make a good time using volts, still can do same times without volts.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Ropelli »

Vermin Supreme wrote:..."is it better to volt or turn in straight pipes?"
I think that's a bit like asking whether it's poss to start moving on a flat surface using only volts. And as you can test it, that's pretty much impossible. Any kind of movement that might happen imo is just a result of rounding errors in the physics engine.

So it doesn't matter which one you use.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by bene »

I wrote this post with theory behind bugs, recommended read if you interested in theory stuff I guess.

There is also theory behind brake volts from tas project:
http://www.recsource.tv/r/pidnjvmyof
http://www.recsource.tv/r/wibjnayumr

What happens in these recs is that the bug is along the edge surface of the polygon causing the wheel to gain a big spin. Braking in mid air puts force on bike based on wheel spin. Bigger wheel spin causes bigger rotation.
So same thing as brake volts just impressive spin happening here. At normal wheel rotation brake volts this is barely noticeable unless pro.
This was proven outside of tas with some recs where physics was changed to put big initial spin on wheels, those recs also show big wheel spin and just landing on a polygon osv.
http://kopasite.net/up/u9e934pfd2h4bbq/34b0ne.rec here xiited rec with 100k spin on wheel and press brake
http://kopasite.net/up/uk9lo5lgt2ja21o/06b0ne1.rec here xiited rec with 100k spin on wheel and land on polygon
http://kopasite.net/up/f6uzodmb9h72920/06b0ne2.rec here xiited rec with 100k spin on wheel and press brake
http://kopasite.net/up/8i2o824lc388d7h/34b0ne1k.rec 1k spin on wheel and press brake

There is also that zweq spreadxiit simulating 10k finishes.

Can't think of more now osv.

osv.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by 8-ball »

because theory is tl;dr
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sunshine »

nice stuff bene
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Boomer »

Tried to find older threads for you. I found two but I remembered there was much more discussion about physics etc in these threads than it really is.. :?

http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2729

Too bad onlainari's site is offline.

http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1189

Anyway, might be something of interest there.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Thundr- »

Some theorycrafting is hard to do as the answer to questions like - Is it better to onewheel hang or twowheel hang, going head first or wheel first on a hang drop, is always going to be: "It depends". All the circumstances before and after, and they are all different for each level. So much so that a minor change to the design can alter the fastest approach from one or the other. The different approaches might even be so similar you can not notice which one is faster with your own eyes. Then there's variables like: How to push, gas, turn and what angle before getting to said hangspot. Infinite possibilities.

The fastest way to test this is simply by trying different things, then perhaps compare the replays or look at last apple time. "How to do a brutal volt" do have some standard moves, but the timing, angle and speed is always different. If you can do a brutal in one level you might not necessarily be able to do a brutal volt in another level because the circumstances are different.

In sc2 SCVs build at a constant rate, gather resources at a constant rate, and have a constant move speed. They can not bounce on the minerals and thereby crack open a larger amount and boost their way to the command center by brutal volting over the other SCVs for greater amounts faster.

Experience > Theory when it comes to elma. By doing a gazillion brutal volts in different levels will you learn way more than any theorycrafting could.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by gimp »

I agree with thundr. If you want to just talk about elma theory for the fun of it that's fine and dandy. But I don't see any real gain in playing ability that would come of it.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Tigro »

gimp wrote:I agree with thundr. If you want to just talk about elma theory for the fun of it that's fine and dandy. But I don't see any real gain in playing ability that would come of it.
Be sure it changed A LOT when I read about alovolt for the first time.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Thundr- »

Reading a description or learning what a button does has nothing to do with theorycrafting though Tigro. Thats more or less just reading the instruction manual that came with the furniture.

Theorycrafting is taking math and other variables in order to analyze them to apply a theoretic strategy to use the game mechanics in a better way. In a game like sc2 you get a major leap in performance the by simply reading about build orders and timings even if you are very new to the game.

Some interesting stuff about alovolt: In an everyday scenario where would it be most optimal to ALWAYS use alovolt instead of regular volts and vice versa, and a million other things. Very difficult stuff to give hard constant answers to that would always apply.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by FinMan »

A lot of stuff could be written to help out the way from noob to pro though, and even further. There's so much stuff that takes a long time to figure out but could be easier to figure out if it was written out, like stuff about that brutal volting, grip gaining, "how to finish this 0,5 faster than wr ride without dying", etc etc.

A thing that could lead up to a lot of theory written down is tuning and how it affects your gameplay and stuff.

Thought number 3 for today: rng in elma; you don't hear people like anpdad (lol what an nab) complain about randomness in elma for no reason. Not only does it affect all brutals, bounces etc, but also stuff like getting a grip etc. There are situations when you get grip like 20% of the time and getting that grip results in 0,5 better time etc, sometimes the number is 80%. What can you do about that and why and how?!
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Thundr- »

Tuning is something that could be reasonably theorycrafted I guess. Most people know that you should play certain ints with low fps, but I dont think many people completely understand why aside from the very basics.

What happens in the game at every fps from 30-999? Theres a considerable difference between 30 and 31 in particular, why is that? And whats with the other breaking points at 60, 100 etc that you find is the recommended fps for certain internals. Some of these are discussed in other threads I know but its not really compiled anywhere neat or in a neat way.

Something I find funny: Why is the common consensus that battling at max fps is the best? Rather the "general" approach in ANY lev if you dont have preknowledge that it requires lower? I think this is untrue in so many regards. There was a time when I was playing on a cruddy laptop that could only generate up to 250 fps or something like that. I remember playing a lot of battles and Mielz would often comment that my low fps helped me win at very normal spots such as flipping over a certain hill in a regular cruise, or a breakturn in a slope. In other words: no vsync particular tricks and glitches, just regular moves you do in every level ever. The flexibility the bike gets at those lower fpses can be really awesome, but sucks in other situations instead. You have to consider the tradeoff ofc.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Madness »

Thundr- wrote:What happens in the game at every fps from 30-999? Theres a considerable difference between 30 and 31 in particular, why is that? And whats with the other breaking points at 60, 100 etc that you find is the recommended fps for certain internals. Some of these are discussed in other threads I know but its not really compiled anywhere neat or in a neat way.
What's the difference between 30 and 31 fps? I didn't notice anything considerable.
Thundr- wrote:Something I find funny: Why is the common consensus that battling at max fps is the best? Rather the "general" approach in ANY lev if you dont have preknowledge that it requires lower? I think this is untrue in so many regards. There was a time when I was playing on a cruddy laptop that could only generate up to 250 fps or something like that. I remember playing a lot of battles and Mielz would often comment that my low fps helped me win at very normal spots such as flipping over a certain hill in a regular cruise, or a breakturn in a slope. In other words: no vsync particular tricks and glitches, just regular moves you do in every level ever. The flexibility the bike gets at those lower fpses can be really awesome, but sucks in other situations instead. You have to consider the tradeoff ofc.
True, max fps sucks in most levs. I pretty much always limit my fps to 220 in battles.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sunshine »

FinMan wrote:A lot of stuff could be written to help out the way from noob to pro though, and even further
yea this is usually how it goes in those other games i mentioned as well, theorycrafting is usually geared towards bottom 95% of the players to get better and usually when you reach top 5-1% you already have good knowledge and can build on that on your own. i remember someone nab long time asking why pros turn and brake in the air "for no reason" which is why i gave that example of gas turning in my original post. lots of the time i think new players are struggling with beisik bike controls or even learning to use alo so they are "blind" to these mechanics that seem obvious to us
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Lousku »

I once wandered why Kazan sometimes taps brake instead of turngassing. I guess it doesn't matter because you don't tend to get any grip with sach tap in most cases. You could even lose some thousandth by turngassing because the front wheel will rotate in the wrong direction and slow you down... right?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by culinko »

I've always wondered what is the best thing to do if your front wheel is going up: release gas, tap brake, double turn or a combination of them? If anyone knows this, you must enlighten us!
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sla »

culinko wrote:I've always wondered what is the best thing to do if your front wheel is going up: release gas, tap brake, double turn or a combination of them? If anyone knows this, you must enlighten us!
I tested that when trying under minute on Ziz Zag. After taking 2nd apple (with brutal http://www.recsource.tv/r/bzhosuqxmp sec 16) always thought doble turn would be faster, but i merged two recs and realised that with a little brake bike doesnt lose same speed as double turning. Nowdays its very easy to test it with sl, u just need to merge two recs and thats all. Although im not sure if its always faster a little brake in all cases, as Thundr- said.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Madness »

culinko wrote:I've always wondered what is the best thing to do if your front wheel is going up: release gas, tap brake, double turn or a combination of them? If anyone knows this, you must enlighten us!
It depends.
At a slow speed - release gas as soon as the wheel leaves the ground (Warm Up start).
At a slow/medium speed - brake as soon as the wheel leaves the ground.
At a medium/fast speed - brake as soon as the wheel leaves the ground or brake a tiny bit later so that the wheel gets higher, turn/gas quickly and turn/gas again (Slalom 20.6x).

This applies to level surfaces. :wink:
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Madness »

I'm wondering if anyone here knows how to rotate the fastest when you start in the air (as in Bumpy Journey). You can have a guess. :wink:
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Ropelli »

Lousku wrote:You could even lose some thousandth by turngassing because the front wheel will rotate in the wrong direction and slow you down... right?
Actually free(=no gas) wheel rotation doesn't have an effect on anything. Only the gas generated from the bike causes all the different effects. The wheel merely transfers the force.

So the rotation of the bike is just an effect of the force generated by the gas. The force is always constant(which makes sense since the bike has only so much power), but it still affects only for a split second while in air. That's because elma actually cuts off the force when the wheel reaches a certain spinning velocity. When the wheel is touching the ground, that maximum spinning velocity is rather hard to reach so the gas won't be cut off and an obvious rotation of the bike can be observed.

Brake works in a similar manner, but the force is always directed so that it reduces the spinning of the wheel.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by jblaze »

Madness wrote:I'm wondering if anyone here knows how to rotate the fastest when you start in the air (as in Bumpy Journey). You can have a guess. :wink:
everyone knows u get more rotation by gasing the oposite wheel at the very beginning, fast brake, then gas the intuitive wheel.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Madness »

Nice one. When I said this a few years ago, no one believed me though (can vividly remember Bjenn calling bullshit). :D
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sla »

Madness wrote:Nice one. When I said this a few years ago, no one believed me though (can vividly remember Bjenn calling bullshit). :D
Could u upload rec? I think i know what u are talking cuz saw a few recs doing that, but want to be sure.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Sla »

Ahh didnt know that. Cool! So, to keep the discussion, why do we get more speed doing that? I wouldnt do that move before trying to get speed to rotate (if i didnt see those recs).
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Ropelli »

Sla wrote:Ahh didnt know that. Cool! So, to keep the discussion, why do we get more speed doing that? I wouldnt do that move before trying to get speed to rotate (if i didnt see those recs).
I'd guess rounding errors.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Ruben »

What about double turning/braking vs. aloing to level the bike (going towards the right only, obviously)?
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Lousku »

Ropelli wrote:
Lousku wrote:You could even lose some thousandth by turngassing because the front wheel will rotate in the wrong direction and slow you down... right?
Actually free(=no gas) wheel rotation doesn't have an effect on anything. Only the gas generated from the bike causes all the different effects. The wheel merely transfers the force.
I thought zweq or someone tested teh and found a tiny effect... maybe it was something else. Anyone rimember?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Ropelli »

Lousku wrote:I thought zweq or someone tested teh and found a tiny effect... maybe it was something else. Anyone rimember?
Well I made a little test case that shows there's no difference. When you merge the recs, it does show that the wspint2 rec is a little further away, but the same thing happens on the a version of the recs aswell, which means it's not the spinning of the wheel that causes it. The actual finish times are identical in each rec.

http://kopasite.net/up/u59eajldmv6i5da/wspint.lev
http://kopasite.net/up/7y4bmaif1w29pd4/wspint1.rec
http://kopasite.net/up/vdrrboar6jbs729/wspint2.rec
http://kopasite.net/up/1y1xstbmhhl12ba/wspint1a.rec
http://kopasite.net/up/38k93bs6udqhvli/wspint2a.rec
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by sunl »

Faster turn probably has to do with quirkiness of alovolt? How does alovolt work exactly? I think that the rotation speed you get from the alovolt depends on the rotation of the bike when you press the alobutton, so if you are spinning fast, then press alovolt, then hit a polygon, you will get extra boost (like here at 8 seconds http://www.recsource.tv/r/gzitnvjcad)

So the speed of the rotation is independent of the things that happen in-between

Normal start:
Level start: Rotation speed = 0
Press alovolt: Rotation speed = 0
Delay
Start spinning: Rotation speed = +1

Gas start:
Level start: Rotation speed = 0
Press alovolt: Rotation speed = 0
Gas facing right: Rotation speed = -0.1
Start spinning: Rotation speed = +1
Press brake: Rotation speed = +1.1

??

Not sure of what I wrote above, maybe someone can confirm? ))

I had another question but ended up answering above question and forgetting my question... oups
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by bene »

Lousku wrote:I thought zweq or someone tested teh and found a tiny effect... maybe it was something else. Anyone rimember?
I did test this in tas project using hacked elma to put big rotation on wheel initially and it has no effect putting mega spin on wheel and landing on polygon. Imo I even released these recs along with the brakvolt recs I released.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by axxu »

I remember always holding gas+brake+alo in the beginning of the level and releasing brake once the alovolt started. This also gives slightly more momentum to the spinning. Dunno how it differs from the gassing-to-other-direction style.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by Zweq »

i havent tested free-wheel-spin effect on anything, because
Ropelli wrote:
Lousku wrote:I thought zweq or someone tested teh and found a tiny effect... maybe it was something else. Anyone rimember?
not me, imo free spin of wheel doesn't do anything. Easier to check in code ofc which ropelli probably has done.

But it starts to matter when pres left, right or alo. Then I guess it's either about wheel spin or throttle/brake dunno which. For example http://kopasite.net/up/e05mvm55zlih75j/wathapen.rec http://kopasite.net/up/99ysxtoow20q8ur/wathapen.lev . Imo this only way to survive this lev with 2x alo 360 but duno, only works with high fps also, lowfps is just totally diff for rotation. This would actually make nice playing level for learning timings of (currently known) fastest bike rotation for high fps.
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by sunl »

Ah I remember my question

If you are not moving, we know that the head is not perfectly centered. The head is slightly off-center in the way you are looking. What about when you are spinning very fast? Is the head more off-center than usual, or is it exactly the same thing? Can't tell because of turn animation; maybe bene can answer.

Also,
Does pressing alovolt or normal volt add a fixed amount of extra spin? Or if you are already spinning fast, the amount of added spin is different?

Also,
What is shape of head hitbox?
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Re: Why is there so little elma theory?

Post by ofta »

i sometime use my own kind of generalized rules while playing without knowing if it's benifical or not. like for example if i wanna get pass a pretty low obstacle i try to rotate away from it and keep my head as close to the polygon as possible without dying to take the 'shortest' route. or sometimes i try to fit in as many forward 360 degree rotations as possible in a level even if it's not 'needed'. i'm sure there's alot of those kinda 'generalized' rules you just do without really knowing if it's the best thing or not. maybe collect some of them here to see if anyone have any good input on them?
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