Social Status in Community

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Social Status in Community

Post by gimp »

I was thinking about this the other day. I found that I sometimes listen to those who are better at Elma more than those who are bad. I realized this doesn't make sense, and that a pro's opinion on certain issues should be weighed the same amount as a nab's. Certain things would matter, like if whether to brutal or bounce, then a pro's opinion would make sense (like zweq always says cool things about technical moves or styles). But certain ethical issues in the scene, a pro's opinion doesn't necessarily matter at all, but perhaps the person's amount of time in the community, their logical arguments, roles, or commitments they've made actually matter (like kopaka is very fair and has a history of playing important roles in the scene, also i feel like kutchitsu always makes logical arguments). Sometimes I feel good players feel they are right because they are good at the game, not because they are actually right.

What do you think?
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by roope »

That really is an interesting subject. There does seem to be a tendency to listen to the older, more well-known, and skilled players more. Sometimes it's warranted - after all, they probably know more and have experienced all kinds of things in the scene, sometimes not. It does seem to be hard to "break in" to the more respected group of the scene, even if there's no sensible reason for it.

I would like to extend teh topic a bit further to the social dynamics of the scene I've taken note of.

Once in a while I hear some older players scoff at "new" players like "who is this irrelevant nab?" at a guy who's been a good part of the community for years. I guess it's just hard to let go of the old and trust and appreciate the new, even if it makes no practical sense. A small portion of the scene still wants Abula or px to arrange the next World Cup, even though they've been pretty much inactive for years, especially the latter; that's how much their social status still means.

I guess there is some point in that though. With a household name you know what you get (at least you think so), whereas if a relatively no-name guy who has never arranged any contests or been an active part of the scene as a whole (instead of just playing) wanted to arrange the World Cup, it's understandable to be doubtful.

It all depends on the subject of course. A nab's opinion on if pipes should be allowed in cups is just as valid as a pro's. A nab's opinion on what route or move is fastest, is probably not as valid as a pro's, as you pointed out.

Dame, there's so much stuff I want to write about these things but it feels impsy to be coherent in anything right now, maybe I'll post more later when there's more discussion)
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Tigro »

I said this some time back in this tropic: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic ... 44#p247322
Tigro wrote:Something that I noticed happening was something like a ladder of superiority among kuskis. Simply said: Who is a better player, is a better person and is treated better than others (this applies to all mans maybe with exclusion of Bjenn who is awesome kuski and is still mocked for not being able to create a poll or 29Bjenn, which actually fuels itself with his "fu" replies, but that's not an excuse). The phenomenon could be easily observable on Spef, for example, who has risen enormously quickly. As his skill and TT rised, his status went up as well. There aren't many (if any) rookie/noob players who have the same amount of respect, unless they do something like a web utility or replay viewer or whatever (ofc it's big thanks to all of those, they care for the game and for people around here, do the extra mile). So basically the status in this community is earned. While status of being a pro or mopo legend is completely legit, I don't think people should treat others based on it.
And actually I guess it's one of the reasons i quit playing. I didn't want to be percieved based on my ingame skill (where you all know that I suck at this game).
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Labs »

In my eyes everyone is equal, even Bjenn.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by roope »

Tigro wrote:I said this some time back in this tropic: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic ... 44#p247322
Tigro wrote:Something that I noticed happening was something like a ladder of superiority among kuskis. Simply said: Who is a better player, is a better person and is treated better than others (this applies to all mans maybe with exclusion of Bjenn who is awesome kuski and is still mocked for not being able to create a poll or 29Bjenn, which actually fuels itself with his "fu" replies, but that's not an excuse). The phenomenon could be easily observable on Spef, for example, who has risen enormously quickly. As his skill and TT rised, his status went up as well. There aren't many (if any) rookie/noob players who have the same amount of respect, unless they do something like a web utility or replay viewer or whatever (ofc it's big thanks to all of those, they care for the game and for people around here, do the extra mile). So basically the status in this community is earned. While status of being a pro or mopo legend is completely legit, I don't think people should treat others based on it.
And actually I guess it's one of the reasons i quit playing. I didn't want to be percieved based on my ingame skill (where you all know that I suck at this game).
Might be a dickish thing to say, but I think one the major reasons in your case was immaturity. I guess this could be extended to many players that aren't getting much respect - even though Bjenn is a great player, he often does not act mature - whether being teased or not (even though teasing him without a reason is immature too, it's an endless cycle).
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Grace »

All good points so far in this thread. Take jaytea for example - he pretty much joked around and played a character for his entire playing time; but was very good at the game and was very respected for it. AKB is another example of a similar situation. On the inverse; a kuski like niN (at least in my eyes) doesn't get afforded the same time and respect; despite being a stalwart of the scene and having been insightful and helpful the entire time.

roope's point on older players scoffing at newer players is entirely true and always has been - roope himself is a great example of this; where it took until like 2012 for most people to consider him not new. Plenty of people faced this (Pawq, Kiiwi, Jamppa, Pab, trew for example; all very good kuskis); but then others like Spef or GRob who are newer by several years were considered respectable and older very quickly.

That said, it's probably not without reason. Take a look at the WR table - as far as I can tell from memory; there's only 3 kuski's who've joined since about 2008 that have made a WR (Spef, GRob and bene). (Is nekit joined after, idk how much he was playing before belma?)

Interesting to talk about though.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Bjenn »

Labs wrote:In my eyes everyone is equal, even Bjenn.
xD thanks bro.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by kuchitsu »

Hmm dunno. I guess I sometimes do judge by skill, but only when I don't yet have any other information on the person. Like if all I know is that a player is very skilled, I think it's not unreasonable to treat them with some respect since they are probably a valuable addition to the scene and, well, I can kinda respect them for mastering the game, right? But if I later learn about their deeds, see how they behave with other people, etc, that will definitely affect my attitude, and probably a lot more than the skill. IMO for me things like acting nice to others, providing valuable feedback and advice, being enthusiastic about various aspects of the scene, having interesting unique opinions, just being likeable overall and having a nice sense of humor, etc, are a lot more important.

Perhaps I'm being dishonest here? I guess it's easy to say "I judge everyone fairly, no matter how they look, what their skin color is, no matter social status, etc" but most likely it's not completely true... Like if you share silly angsty quotes on Facebook most people will laugh at you, but if you become a popular musician then everyone will suddenly be happy to hear these same quotes from you because now you're a role model and everyone wants to be like you... Even though they don't actually know much about you. And I'm kinda like that too, I admit. A celebrity I like is often a great person by default for me, even though pretty much all I know about them is that they play cool music.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Lousku »

I think you can gain status and respect in many ways because peopel appreciate different things. Improving internal WR's is a big one because almost everyone appreciates it. Arranging contests, making levs, sites and programs etc also work, but even just being actively social and a nice person has a good impact and makes you respected.

There's no exclusive club for mans who are good at elma and have been playing forever. Yes, some pipel are respected more than others, but anyone can gain that status by contributing whatever they can, even if it's just being a nice social person.

I don't really see a lot of imbalance in our community in this sense. Your status pretty much correlates with how much you've contributed in different ways. Some people might have contributed and then counteracted the contribution by being toxic in chat or something.

But yeah, humans are pretty illogical in this. We will give special attention to someone's opinion because that person did something completely unrelated that we happen to appreciate. There are sports legends that get into the news for their political opinions even though their expertise has absolutely nothing to do with politics.

TL likes to talk about some kinda inner circle of kuskis who hev high status, maybe invite him to this tropic. :)
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by skint0r »

I think it's maybe more prevalent in new people. Maybe feeling insecure joining sort of tight-knight small community, where you're not just a random anonymous person in a big crowd, but even just joining some battles and saying a line in chat you're already like a small part of the scene because you get noticed easily among so few people. Then maybe depends a bit on age, like when you are younger you are a bit more impressionable and have a warped sense of the world and who you look up to and what things you care about. Remember joining elma scene, or well across, and talking in irc so fucking scary at the start when see all those pro names and afraid you're gonna make yourself look dumb. It's maybe a bit different now, because elma is so different compared to early days, no eol and more uhm I don't know "grass-roots" feel? Even if you could say more people are making efforts and making things nowadays, we are spoiled with automated systems etc you know.

Then you realize a lot of players you maybe look up to because of skill, can also be assholes, dumb, different humour, not nice etc., and you learn to care about other things. Hard to look very objectively at it when been around so long, but at least I think I can say on behalf of many "old-schoolers", whether pro or not, that this social ladder thing makes zero difference in interaction and I think it's really some built-up expectations you just have when new and it's a more self-perpetuating thing. And a lot of it is simply just how it is in normal life. You have small cliques with people who have the same humour, or just naturally drawn to each other, maybe by chance because they were both online in quiet time and started talking and shit who knows. Only thing I could say is i probably have more positive view of people who talk in #across and since i stopped playing elma/eol for sik many years because of idiot windows, i have no idea about who are new or not anymore and hard time grasping some personalities and who people are. Seems it's a bit divided now. Back in the days #across was place to be (and maybe some mopolauta-only people), but now there's also this eol-only people and i'm still wategak at how people actually like using it to talk.

I think only people i personally look down at are just people who are annoying in many ways, assholes or those cool rebel rule breakers who needs to be special snowflake.

Like already mentioned, many ways to "come up" in elma world, and as long as you're either nice and helpful or norm good man, that would be enough. or make effort to produce things, levels, contests, ideas. or just be pro i guess, but at least i value other things more. i think no matter how new you are you would be welcomed addition if any of those things applied to you and if you just try not giving a shit about who's old or new and just talk norm and try not caring about who people are in social status that helps probably. i think there was some idea in writing when started, despite what you just read oke 8) totally make sense in head...
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by skint0r »

i guess maybe one view some people have might be "omg soooooo fuked corrupted unbalanced unfair!!!!! same people moderating and ops in irc all over wtfffff!!!??!!!111". some people for some reason maybe think it's some fucking secret illuminati controlled club in elma scene when in reality it's just because some people have proved themselves to be fair in judgment and reliable and not one of those stupid mans who can't control their behavior and you know you can rely on them to not misuse power etc.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Chris »

skint0r wrote:i guess maybe one view some people have might be "omg soooooo fuked corrupted unbalanced unfair!!!!! same people moderating and ops in irc all over wtfffff!!!??!!!111". some people for some reason maybe think it's some fucking secret illuminati controlled club in elma scene when in reality it's just because some people have proved themselves to be fair in judgment and reliable and not one of those stupid mans who can't control their behavior and you know you can rely on them to not misuse power etc.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by bene »

Lousku wrote:but even just being actively social and a nice person has a good impact and makes you respected.
I was always really bad at elma(Maybe I had a few external rekords but nothing major) but was always chatting away with pro mans like axxu, madness, John, thor, bjenn(hahaha) to name a few early on. When I later rejoined the scene in 2011(?) I befriended anpdad and other rusrus mans like kazan rather fast long before I did anything significant or showed any sign of being good at the game.

For me a problem with nabs that joined recently is that they are extremely antisocial no one ever says anything all you see is the name in f5 and f6.
Example: Grob, I have no idea who this is I can't respect this man he did a few random wrs but I have never seen him put a single line in chat.
Example: Ruben, Joined recently(I hope) is nowhere near Spef skill level but I still enjoy Ruben he is nice it is easy to respect him, he shows interest in the game and the scene and is social.

For elma triks or styles it makes sense to listen to pro mans but I know of several instances where a nab idea has been several seconds faster and some pros have dismissed it. So if you are blinded by social status you will never steal wu wr style from some nabs random line in eol chat because you discarded it.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Chris »

But more seriously I respect nice, decent kuski. It doesn't matter how many wrs someone have. Of course when we talk about strictly elma related things like bounces, styles etc, skilled players opinion might matter, but not always. Generally don't be asshole and dick if you want to be respected.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by culinko »

There have been some annoying people in the community throughout the time, but only the 'nabs' were condemned for this behavior, which doesn't really make sense to me. So there is definitely some merit to this 'social hierarchy' in elma.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by analcactus »

>2016
>listen Bjenn
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by FinMan »

I don't see a super strong correlation between skill and social hierarchy. There are a lot of people who from the beginning were really respected, even if not doing speflike skill improvement, take Lousku as an example. In a game this skill-based it would be weird if something like this didn't happen at all though, it surely does but I'd see the piece of that part in the cake is not that huge. Though, I have to add stuff like this happens all the time: joey is one of the people who clearly didn't have the sickest skills to begin with and he has also been also joked of. A lot of the mid-skilled players told him that he straight away sucks which has been a really annoying and immature issue imo.

One thing that comes to mind when talking about Spef is that in the beginning he used to be that "Stini's super good cubing friend, he's next toringe whose nick unfortunately doesn't rhyme with orange etc etc" which definitely helped gain the social status along with the high höyling motivation and sick times. This "that guy's friend must be a good guy too" behavior is really common in real life too and it's way harder to get to know anyone individually compared to getting to know someone through a mutual friend.

It's hard to find cases that are the other way round, but that may partly be just be because those with a better potential tend to not appear that often, which leaves us with a high probability of them all getting along with the people in the scene compared to the rest of the people.

The whole issue of course can seem very different from any person's view because we all see different chatlines from individual people, we appreciate different kinds of features in online behavior, we take other things personally (lul, taking stuff personally in 2016) etc etc. As roope pointed out, being mature and reasonable is one of the key parts to succeeding in this community.

I would like to hear some of those cases which gimp mentioned where someone thinks they are right just because they are better at the game.

And yeah, there is a social hierarchy in basically any community imo, and in elma's case the hierarchy is rather fair compared to a lot of other cases I know of. bene's point about new people not taking part in the scene also is a good point, would definitely be great if new players more often wanted to take part in the scene and talked in eol for example.

I hope this is in somehow understandable form, ask me if need to elaborate something osv, oke?!
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by insane guy »

I sometimes judge players solely by their eol shirt:

Weep: must be mega cool guy.
Boomer: Awesome dude!
ANATOLIY: He's propably ugly and unfriendly.
...

If people have no shirt I usually don't care who they are or what they do. Which is fitting for this topic because making your own shirt is also part of your social status in elma. I can understand that some people just dont give a shit but if you dont take the 2-20 mins to make a shirt it tells me that you don't care about the limited options of elma and therefore are not as valuable to me as someone else who does.


I think the most important thing though is your general attitude. Of course its very subjective and also hard to understand someones personality through a few chat lines. (Good example is Ramone, who I always thought of as very negative and unfriendly, but then I met at FEM and changed opinion 100%). If people have a positive spirit and are helpful they are well respected (at least by me).
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Madness »

Labs wrote:In my eyes everyone is equal, even Bjenn.
:lol:
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Igge »

I would say this phenomenon isn't limited to elma, but is applicable to almost every social hierarchy. You always tend to listen more attentively to people who are "higher up", or people you personally look up to. There's a reason why we have reality shows with celebrities, and ask them completely unrelated personal views on various matters in interviews about their work. The more famous or popular a person is, the more we want to know about them, and the more we care about what they say. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with them, but you're always more interested in hearing the opinions of people you know, rather than someone you've never heard of - even if the person you never heard of is the one who shares your opinion.

News headlines, obituaries, Reddit AMAs.. If the person referenced is neither famous nor close to you personally, you will most likely not care.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by ROKKEBOL »

Madness wrote:
Labs wrote:In my eyes everyone is equal, even Bjenn.
:lol:
Agree
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Tigro »

insane guy wrote:I sometimes judge players solely by their eol shirt:
If people have no shirt I usually don't care who they are or what they do. Which is fitting for this topic because making your own shirt is also part of your social status in elma. I can understand that some people just dont give a shit but if you dont take the 2-20 mins to make a shirt it tells me that you don't care about the limited options of elma and therefore are not as valuable to me as someone else who does.
It's like saying "We can't be friends because you don't have Facebook."

Some people simply don't find it amusing to do everything possible in the scene, some just want to play the game. If people like GRob don't like chatting with others, for whatever reason, so be it. Some people just aren't that social, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't give a shit about us. And whatever their attitude towards us is, we should primarily care about our attitude towards them.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by jblaze »

bene wrote:Example: Grob, I have no idea who this is I can't respect this man he did a few random wrs but I have never seen him put a single line in chat.
hmm, i remember GRob as an active chat user, just like many of us. he once started priv chatting with me out of nowhere and we kept talking for a few feeks often (i was really shocked he chose me and i almost masturbated back then)

from what i know TorInge was the very quiet one, who never spoke with people and just kept driving wrs.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Grace »

Tor played in a time before belma, but yes he was a quiet guy. WR machine :) I wonder what his times would be like in 2016 with new strats.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by skint0r »

Hard to remember so long back, but in my mind he was not quiet, but maybe a bit publicly? maybe because was on smaller norwegian channel on irc and same team for a bit with him, dunno. Plus he was at FEM.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by bene »

jblaze wrote: hmm, i remember GRob as an active chat user, just like many of us. he once started priv chatting with me out of nowhere and we kept talking for a few feeks often (i was really shocked he chose me and i almost masturbated back then)
Maybe I feel this way because my rejoining was after grob glory days. I saw him a few times wining a few battles but almost never chatting, at least when I was onlined.
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Hosp »

GRob chatted quite a bit but he was no Nekitist.
Rank 1 social status (God) = Zweq obv ofc
New mans tend to not be of any interest to my since they rarely chat, use lauta, #across osv, + they are usually fakenickers sadly. If I see new man doing oke times I think: fakenicker probably
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by roope »

Hosp wrote: New mans tend to not be of any interest to my since they rarely chat, use lauta, #across osv, + they are usually fakenickers sadly. If I see new man doing oke times I think: fakenicker probably
People seem to worry about this a bit too much. Fakenickers get spotted very easily and quickly and get banned very quickly, so if a new player has survived for a couple of weeks, he's probably legit)
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by Madness »

roope wrote:Fakenickers get spotted very easily and quickly and get banned very quickly [...]
Good joke. :lol:
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Re: Social Status in Community

Post by roope »

Madness wrote:
roope wrote:Fakenickers get spotted very easily and quickly and get banned very quickly [...]
Good joke. :lol:
If you have any information, you're very welcome to share it!
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