World Cup 7 format

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World Cup 7 format

Post by Kopaka » 24 Aug 2016, 09:36

We would like some feedback on the format of the upcoming World Cup 7. Of course it's gonna look much like previous world cups, but there's room for some changes as well. There's a few different things to this as follows:

Number of events
The last two world cups have been 15 events long, before that we had some with 20 events. Either is a long time, but it also needs to be something special compared to other cups.

Length of events
Typically events are one week long which should give everyone a chance to play. Few times we've had some shorter ones to mix it up though.

Skips
Last time we had a single skip for the last time (best 14 results count). Allows for people to still be competitive in spite of missing an event. Adds a bit of strategy. Makes the results a bit harder to read.

Type of levels
Lengths, difficulty etc. Typically there has a been a pipe and maybe one other "special" level. Any special wishes?



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Remember that World Cup 7 starts February 2017 and you can now send levels to wc7levels@gmail.com

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by kuchitsu » 24 Aug 2016, 11:22

I think it's a rather faulty idea that all levs need the same length. I would definitely prefer some variation (between 4 and 8 days or so). But of course it could alienate some players.

If not all events are 7 days long, the idea of having over 15 events begins to seem less crazy.

For some (many?) players a pipe event pretty much equals a forced skip. This is why I dislike both pipe events and the default one skip system. It almost feels like some evil plan designed to put certain players at serious disadvantage. No other type of level, other than a hill event (lol?) perhaps, could have the same devastating effect. However, some people really look forward to such events, and it's also an important tradition maybe. But IMO: either have no pipes or have at least two skips so that everyone can actually choose what to skip.

I think ideally all levels should be finishable by a noob that just completed all internals after much struggle. I also hope to see some levels with non-sky background. :) And most levs should be visually neat imo (either nice use of grass and pics or really good non-grass design). I'd like to see at least two events with win time way below 30 seconds.

Regarding special events, I would really like to see an event with 2 or 3 levels. It could be a total time competition or just 2 events being played at the same time with maximum points for one level being 50 instead of 100. And I really don't want to see these silly rollercoasters. :P (I admit I suck at them)

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ruben » 24 Aug 2016, 11:35

kuchitsu wrote:For some (many?) players a pipe event pretty much equals a forced skip. This is why I dislike both pipe events and the default one skip system. It almost feels like some evil plan designed to put certain players at serious disadvantage.

Ether have no pipes or have at least two skips so that everyone can actually choose what to skip.

I think ideally all levels should be finishable by a noob that just completed all internals after much struggle.

I really don't want to see these silly rollercoasters.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Lousku » 24 Aug 2016, 12:02

kuchitsu wrote:I also hope to see some levels with non-sky background. :)
All this accomplishes is making every serious contender tick "default ground/sky". Though I guess most hev it anyway because it's a hassle to switch every time theers a mongo background lev. And yeah there's some alternative ways but the tickbox in eolconf is quicker.
then again i don't know anything
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 24 Aug 2016, 13:31

I would really like a battle event or ff event or something modern. World cup should adapt some to modern things and mix it up because world cup should test all skills not just traditional cup 1 week höyl.

Special events are NOT pipes but can be. Modern things that can be tested is ff, climb, uphill. Not everyone can play all things but that is fine. Then you are not worthy seriously. We need some modern pro events not made with a for everyone attitude but not exklusively. Maybe 1 or 2 events. I think it is completely fair that you are at a disadvantage if you cant play. Might even be bad to have a skip so you are forced to compete in special events. I think some Ramone can make really good not random spamclick hills that can maybe fit wcup and be easyerish for everyone but still hard and pro.

I am saying this and cant play any of the special events myself. Its just earlier cups had (for that time) mega hard pipes we should keep tradition but adapt it :-)
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Lukazz » 24 Aug 2016, 18:00

I agree with everything bene said. I think a World Cup winner should be someone who is good at all "disciplines" of Elma, and that includes stuff like pipes, uphills and so on. Maybe no battle-events though, because it would be unfair to kuskis who live in different time zones.
I'd also like to see some different event lengths. For me personally 7 days is the absolute maximum. Some 2-3 days events would be nice.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zweq » 24 Aug 2016, 18:37

Here are my couple of onions.

I hope to see originality and authenticity in levels, over multistyle "perfectness". It's far more memorable than "perfected" multistyle boringness where you can't say which one of the 3 routes is fastest even after SL mastery.

As for special event climb > uphill > pipe > ff.

Minimum length for an event should be at least 3 days.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Madness » 24 Aug 2016, 20:52

Wtf do you mean 3 days? Come on, this is a World Cup. 7 days should be the minimum possible length for any event and that should be sacred, set in stone, protected by the World Cup constitution and even thinking of suggesting otherwise should be illegal. Even 7 days could be too little sometimes if you have too much work or something. 3 days is bullshit, so ez to miss an event.

I don't care what types of levels there are, but if there's going to be anything random like ffs or three-day events, I won't play that.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Lousku » 24 Aug 2016, 22:55

Zweq wrote:I hope to see originality and authenticity in levels, over multistyle "perfectness". It's far more memorable than "perfected" multistyle boringness where you can't say which one of the 3 routes is fastest even after SL mastery
Agree, those perfected multiroute levs mostli just show off design effort and aren't automatically interesting to play at all. But can't really mayke a blanket statement on multiroute levs. Sometimes it's moar about options than mastering every available route. Then the likelihood of kreisi unexpected winstyle is multiplyed by number of viable routes... right?
then again i don't know anything
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by adi » 25 Aug 2016, 03:46

- I hope first finish battles will never again be mixed with "normal" contests. Though ff level could work fine as one week cup event
- pipes are still very big part of elma so why not - anyway could be mixed somehow like zebras wc606
- not many "perfect" multi route levels
- 15 weeks is really long time. How about 2 skips?
- one week per event is quite perfect. There will be enough time for everyone who value elma high. What would the point to have 3 days event? Battles are already used to measure skill at finding style and doing good time quickly. Over one week events would be fine but is there really need for that? Actually I really loved how in Mastercup 3 events 8 and 9 started the same time but for event 9 playing time was 2 weeks (and event 9 was longest/hardest in cup). Anyway it might be good to just keep it simple like in wc6.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Grace » 26 Aug 2016, 11:51

I think pipes should definitely be a fairly major part of at least one level, but there shouldn't be any level that is essentially ONLY pipes. The level quality at this type of event is high enough that I think we can have pipes/uphill/other modern level design traits included at a high quality level and integrated properly.

Event length is hard. Madik is of course right, but imo that's a bit tough luck. Being able to produce a fast time in short period to work with is a modern aspect of elma and representative of the battle scene - I think I'd like to see a few shorter events.

2 Skips

Would like to see a healthy mix between multiroute, single route and harvest style levels. All of them have valuable qualities and style design/perfection should always be a major consideration for externalists.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by SveinR » 26 Aug 2016, 17:37

I suppose I am a bit of a "World Cup traditionalist", but the following are absolutely needed in my view:

1 pipe event
1 rollercoaster

15 events and 1 skip seems fine.

Regarding event length I think most should be 1 week as in the past but a few shorter/longer could be acceptable (and there is precedence for this also, there was some 2 week event from WCup 4 and some shorter ones from WCup5 if I remember correctly).
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 27 Aug 2016, 10:50

Under week events doesnt suit wc imo. Battle/FF event is horrible. Levels could be whatever, if you cant handle it, well, learn. Planned multiroutes whack af.

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zero » 27 Aug 2016, 11:41

Event with 2 levs would be nice :)
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by SveinR » 27 Aug 2016, 12:36

Zero wrote:Event with 2 levs would be nice :)
Like WCup503 a and b perhaps? You had to choose either to participate in event a or b, both of which were 3 day events where event b started after event a had finished.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by 8-ball » 29 Aug 2016, 17:31

I also think there should be levels relevant to the currently developed high skill meta such as extreme climbing and uphills. If only a few people finish and the rest have apple results, so be it. Hell, that would motivate me to finally learn it better.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zero » 29 Aug 2016, 17:38

SveinR wrote:
Zero wrote:Event with 2 levs would be nice :)
Like WCup503 a and b perhaps? You had to choose either to participate in event a or b, both of which were 3 day events where event b started after event a had finished.
That could be nice too but I meant an event with 2 levs played at the same time. Could just split the points to half or take an avg amount with the norm point system.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by kuchitsu » 29 Aug 2016, 18:56

8-ball wrote:I also think there should be levels relevant to the currently developed high skill meta such as extreme climbing and uphills.
Even zweqspin?

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by SveinR » 29 Aug 2016, 19:05

I would just like to add that nekhill etc levs would be far more discriminating towards lower-skilled players than pipe levs and work way more as a "forced skip" as some were worried about regarding pipes.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 29 Aug 2016, 21:51

Hill is not equal to nekhill.
Can be hard/easy ("easy") at same time. As any level can.

Hill will most likely only be used if get great lev for it (same with climb/other special levels)

Special rules, like two events same time, or pick A or B is just stupid. WC should be clean. Playing with rules is for other cups. Cant have Usain Bolt jump nails in 100m olympics cause some nabs think its unfair no one else stands a chance.

1 week playing time is perf. Battle event bad for so many reasons. World Cup is not battle. Nor should it be. Orka.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by adi » 30 Aug 2016, 09:25

Ramone wrote:Hill is not equal to nekhill.
Can be hard/easy ("easy") at same time. As any level can.

Hill will most likely only be used if get great lev for it (same with climb/other special levels)

Special rules, like two events same time, or pick A or B is just stupid. WC should be clean. Playing with rules is for other cups. Cant have Usain Bolt jump nails in 100m olympics cause some nabs think its unfair no one else stands a chance.

1 week playing time is perf. Battle event bad for so many reasons. World Cup is not battle. Nor should it be. Orka.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 30 Aug 2016, 11:12

Lukazz wrote:Maybe no battle-events though
Battle events are ultra bad for many reasons. I just threw the idea out there because it works with the general thoughts behind my post of modernizing.
IF battle events are added they would probably need to run separately with their own rules as some sort of mini cup with separate point systems and everything, a single battle event does not need to replace a 1 week event. Like have a few battles instead of one event and then use some smart scoring there to determine winner of this WC event. I am sure someone brilliant could come up with something cool if we tried.
It maybe does not have to be as a battle in eol limited to 60 minutes, maybe it could be a series of shorter battleish levels that run for a few days each and then total score from all is added up to that wcup event.
It would be nice for modernizing and testing all aspects of elmaing which I feel is an important part of a world cup but probably too hard to come up with norm rules that are fair for all time zones.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zweq » 30 Aug 2016, 11:13

why should it be pipe, uphill, climb, spin, hongy exclusively, instead of a mix.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 30 Aug 2016, 11:57

limpsy01 confirmed for wcup in the tas event.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Kopaka » 30 Aug 2016, 12:35

Zweq wrote:why should it be pipe, uphill, climb, spin, hongy exclusively, instead of a mix.
This. A level that is exclusively one thing is fine as a novelty for a battle or for some contest for a subset of players, but a world cup level needs to hit broader than that. Also that way a level can be interesting for a broader skill set of players. Sure a world cup needs to test the top skilled players, but I'd also love it if it would bring in new players.

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 30 Aug 2016, 12:51

I made concept art for a MIX level where all parts are MIXED AND MAXED

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Madness » 31 Aug 2016, 01:18

8-ball wrote:I also think there should be levels relevant to the currently developed high skill meta such as extreme climbing and uphills. If only a few people finish and the rest have apple results, so be it. Hell, that would motivate me to finally learn it better.
Good attitude. This is how you ggg get good, not by saying "This is too hard for me, abort!!!" like many others do.

I don't see why every level should be finishable for everyone. What's the difference between ending up 29th with a time of 30.xx in a 20 sec hoyla level and ending up 29th with 10 apples in a pipe? World Cup should be challenging and make you improve your skills. I would appreciate a level that would be extremely hard for me to finish and forced me to learn something new. For example I never managed/tried hard enough to do that limpsy01 start, so if I actually had to learn it to win a WC event, it would improve my skills a lot. Or say if everyone had to learn to climb a hard steep nekhill, maybe when there's an uphill battle next time, we could all compete against each other rather than spying Nekit.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by kuchitsu » 31 Aug 2016, 01:31

At least give people some options... Like pros can try that hongyspin at start while nabs can choose some slow route through long hoyla tunnels. That way nabs will be able to compete among themselves at least and not feel like total losers that can't even finish the lev.

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by 8-ball » 31 Aug 2016, 02:01

Have to partly agree with kuchitsu, I think many would choose not to play the level at all knowing they couldn't ever finish, rather than play and have a 2 apples result submitted. It's the psychological factor.

But the problem would be that we couldn't have apple results then showing how far up the hill someone got, it would be either 'made it all the way uphill' or 'went the slower nab way'.

So maybe we stick to the hardcore versions but have for example the start of a hill be easier so everyone can get at least a few apples and feel they accomplished something but also have those kind of events near the end of the cup so nabs have most likely already quit.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Lousku » 31 Aug 2016, 03:04

Wouldn't an uphill lev as normal event probably be sach that most people can finish with a struggle, but only Nekit can cruise? Nat necessarily but that's how I imagined teh.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zweq » 31 Aug 2016, 06:28

actualy i think uphill or climb is even more fitting than pipe because it's prety easy to design them in a way that parts require certain move to become easy, while pipes are raw skill.

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Sunshine » 31 Aug 2016, 07:42

its amazing how you can find people supporting nekhills to be in wcup, some people cant see further than their own nose i guess
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Zweq » 31 Aug 2016, 08:26

I'm not sure you were triggered due to my example looking raw. Of course level could and should be made more beautiful. Also nekff is often used for completely ridiculous and impossible uphills. I doubt anybody wants to see such crap in a world cup, just as you don't want to see 1 wheel wide pipe. I think it's more amazing that people think pipe should be used, because they were always impossible for beginners, and will continue to be so. They're nothing but raw skill. However, climb and uphill levels can be made easily finishable with minor use of brain, while still hiding tons of fast styles. For example in the level I provided you can just wroom straight up, or do a spin, both are technically complicated for beginners, but easy for pros. Uphills and climbs can be polished to be enjoyable for anyone.

Only good argument I can come up with why pipes should be used is that some people like them and maybe some traditional value, but if we talk only about the technical and theory aspect uphills and climbs were always far more dynamic and rewarding.

Besides, I'm still not talking about using anything exclusively. I'm not even suggesting there should be mix of exact(pipe, climb, uphill) types. It could be mix of bangobongo, tricky chris flat track and bowling pipe. While it doesn't sound terribly exciting it would still test mans technical skills, without being idiotic like 50 apple pipe. I'm just trying to say people use their fukin brain here and not have PIPE vision hoho.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by adi » 31 Aug 2016, 09:19

Problem with uphills is that 99% of them are made for nekit. It's a bit same if 99% of pipes were ridiculous tight. Well yeah, usually they are also on purposely made very unenjoyable for 95% of players (start filters, lack of apples etc.), it's so obvious troll though that orka rage or complain...just instant skip. And anyway for 90% of time I'm not interested to spy anyone, would rather play myself.

I can't even remember when I last time played enjoyable uphill. Ruh levels are quite good but sure need more variety. Ramone made some cool uphills with new ideas. Hm this was a bit offtopic but it was reminder that every hill isn't nekhill. And yeah, also uphills can be noob fiendly and at the same time get really hard towards the end (just like pipes or tricky ff battles) - it's just rare to see it happening. Also can be variety...straight uphills, left uphill parts, some polygons etc.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 31 Aug 2016, 09:51

I agree with everything zweq said very pro writing.

Everyone needs to understand that hill != nekhill. Almost all hills made for battle are purposely bad and just random spam with zero testing because that is what makes Nekit happy who is the only person liking these battles other than a handful others and some spyers of these mans. A nekhill in wcup would be extremely bad and poor choice.

Exclusive levels are usually bad, that zebra pipe in prev wcup was memorable and nice because it was just not only pipes. It was poorly received because it was hard and the second pipe level of the wcup I think I forgot.
Ramone has made some really cool hill levels in the past that was not random spam and still hard and enjoyable. If you mix this with some other elements it could very well be a nice level for wcup.
Some mix of a hill and climb could actually be a cool level with infinite possibilities. Why must every level be finishable for anyone? We just need to make sure that special events have progress apples to track who did what and got where and when.

I think pipe events are extremely boring not only because I dislike playing them and can't play them but because it is such a forced thing in every cup.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Igge » 31 Aug 2016, 13:12

Madness put it well in that having a challenging WCup level will make people actually want to practice and learn a new skillset. I also agree that an apple finish might even be more rewarding than some random time in a simpler level. Striving for taking just one more apple is in a sense a more clear-cut goal and achievement than striving to improve some random amount of hundredths.

Maybe apple finishes could also be coupled with "last apple time", so if there is one apple you simply can't reach you can still hoyl the first ones you can reach in order to improve your position. Any super hard level becomes hoylable after a while anyway, and FFs can be really fun to hoyl once you find the style (since theyre usually not that planned).

I say we just let people send in levels, and see what happens. I'm sure the jury will choose a hill or a pipe if they deem them good enough to be part of the world cup. I wouldn't be surprised to see some completely new concept in a level really. At least I hope we do. The world cup is just as much about the levels as it is about the players, so let's see what creative things mans can come up with!
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 31 Aug 2016, 20:55

Such an amazing topic! Makes me quite sure I need to somehow get a new pc. Maybe will buy next time salary. So wanna make levels. I had lev made for wc, even witj awesomw world cup 7 text. But its lost :)

So have to make better :)))
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 31 Aug 2016, 21:01

Hill in wc could be quite amazing! Cause hills almost always FFs. So many styles/tricks to find to cut time. 1 week hc hoyl could be sick af!
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 1 Sep 2016, 10:10

Someone give link to laptop good enough for elma and will be ok in 3 years? Swedish site pls!

I assume I can easily use any screen and kb for all laptops these dsys?
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 1 Sep 2016, 10:19

Very off topic :-)

Ok in 3 years for what exactly? Elma?
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 1 Sep 2016, 12:37

Ok in 3 years as a pc. No use buy too bad shit I assume
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by bene » 1 Sep 2016, 13:29

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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by gimp » 1 Sep 2016, 17:20

I think there should be some kind of special level that I can not explain because somebody did something so different I haven't seen it yet.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ruben » 1 Sep 2016, 21:18

gimp wrote:I think there should be some kind of special level that I can not explain because somebody did something so different I haven't seen it yet.
I'm on it.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 1 Sep 2016, 22:20

15000 bene....
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Labs » 1 Sep 2016, 22:52

Ramone wrote:Hill in wc could be quite amazing! Cause hills almost always FFs. So many styles/tricks to find to cut time. 1 week hc hoyl could be sick af!
Ye make an uphill for nekit and a spin level for zero also a zweqspin for zweq!
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 1 Sep 2016, 23:03

Labs wrote:
Ramone wrote:Hill in wc could be quite amazing! Cause hills almost always FFs. So many styles/tricks to find to cut time. 1 week hc hoyl could be sick af!
Ye make an uphill for nekit and a spin level for zero also a zweqspin for zweq!
Someone clearly did not read prevoius posts.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Labs » 1 Sep 2016, 23:16

1 week hc hoyl could be sick af!
Oke then whats that?

Can think of hillcup, haircut??wtf, hillclimb.
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Ramone » 1 Sep 2016, 23:31

Hardcore doh!

Also read full topic pls
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Re: World Cup 7 format

Post by Labs » 1 Sep 2016, 23:38

It's oke if only a small part of that from a level is, but if it should change the old pipe lev (like whole lev uphill), then pls doesnt even contain lev like this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- Now oke?

A and B lev is nice, i liked it on wc5.

Eol battle as wclev? No. Stupid idea. (also impsy)

Some 10min long lev would be fun, but not apple harvest one (or not only that). There was an old wc5 event where you can miss one appel, so you can go to many ways, that would be oke too.
http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/2923
Last edited by Labs on 1 Sep 2016, 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
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