Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

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sunl
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Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 10 Jan 2017, 20:28

I improved on Madness' increased alospeed that he demonstrated in bumpy journey.

The first alovolt only gives a minimal boost because wheels were not turning at time 0.00, but the 2nd and 3rd alovolts gave mega-boosts
Saveload: http://www.recsource.tv/r/cufirvqyxn
No saveload: http://www.recsource.tv/r/zgntqremaj

Very quick calculations show that an alovolt from zero rotation = about 27.3 rpm and the theoretical maximum boost from this technique is about 3.1 rpm, meaning that spinboosting improves one alovolt by about 11.5%.


Technique for "spinboosting":
Remember when you press alovolt, your kuski actually starts turning about 0.2 seconds later

Real-life technique:
Gas leftways
Press alovolt
Brake & then gas rightways
(kuski starts aloturning)
Brake & then gas leftways

Frame-perfect saveloading:
Time:
-0.10 Gas leftways (gas takes about 0.10 seconds to max out speed, so need full gas before pressing alo) (continue until 0.10)
0.00 Press alovolt
0.10 Turn & brake for approximately 0.02 seconds (brake is not instantaneous, needs a few frames to work)
0.12 Gas rightways (continue until 0.22 - gas takes about 0.10 seconds to max out speed)
(kuski starts aloturning at about 0.22)
0.22 Now that kuski is starting to turn (doing alo), turn & brake for approximately 0.02 seconds
0.24 Gas leftways
(0.93 Press alovolt)
Last edited by sunl on 11 Jan 2017, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by culinko » 10 Jan 2017, 22:50

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by 8-ball » 11 Jan 2017, 14:46

holy fuck
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Lukazz » 11 Jan 2017, 17:32

wtf, how the hell did you figure this out?
science-gaa worthy imo.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by FinMan » 11 Jan 2017, 17:54

Volts are more powerful when you are spinning less imo, that's why braking while volting also is better than gasing all the time; turning and gasing makes spin even slower. corect me if im wrong. This is quite hc though, hard to use easily, maybe could learn over time to use this well though.

e: i was wrong here, this particular stuff was caused by something else.
Last edited by FinMan on 11 Jan 2017, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 11 Jan 2017, 18:24

Wrong Finman. Spinboosting harnesses the power of spin from gassing. (although volts might be slower if already spinning, not 100% sure)

The mechanism is that elma calculates you alovolt spinspeed the moment you press the alovolt key, even though the spin is delayed

I'm sure we're all familiar with how if you press alovolt right before hitting a polygon, you do a sort of "super fast" volt and don't lose your spin speed:
http://www.recsource.tv/r/igosradefz at 7.70 seconds

What happens here is (random numbers I make up)
a)
Let's say you are spinning at 100 rpm
You press alovolt. Elma calculates that you should now be spinning at 120 rpm.
Elma waits 0.2 seconds (meanwhile you still spin at 100 rpm)
Elma *sets* rotation speed to 120 rpm

b)
So if real life, to explain the Madness rec (watch rec very slowly), what happens is

Madness is spinning at 100 rpm
Presses alovolt. Elma calculates spinspeed should be 120 rpm
Over the next 0.2 seconds, Madness hits the wall and pushes the wall, so spinspeed reduces to 30 rpm
Elma has now waited 0.2 seconds
Elma *sets* rotation speed to 120 rpm

c) And to compare normal alo to spinboosted alovolt:
Normal gas alo:
You start at 0 rpm
You gas leftways. The effect of gas is +1.6 rpm, so now you start rotating at 1.6 rpm with full gas
You press alovolt. Elma calculates that you should now be spinning at [1.6+27.3] = 28.6 rpm. (maybe small penalty because already spinning as Finman said, not 100% sure, so that's why I write 28.6 rpm instead of 28.9 rpm)
Elma waits 0.2 seconds (meanwhile you are still spinning at 1.6 rpm)
Elma *sets* rotation speed to 28.6 rpm. You are still gassing leftways

Spinboost alo
You start the level at 0 rpm
You gas leftways. The effect of gas is +1.6 rpm, so now you start rotating at 1.6 rpm with full gas
You press alovolt. Elma calculates that you should now be spinning at 28.6 rpm
You brake and gas rightways. The effect of gas goes from +1.6 rpm to -1.6 rpm. You are now rotating at -1.6 rpm
Elma waits 0.2 seconds. You are rotating at -1.6 rpm
Elma *sets* rotation speed to 28.6 rpm.
You are rotating at 28.6 rpm
HOWEVER, ELMA STILL THINKS THE EFFECT OF GAS IS -1.6 RPM. THEREFORE, YOU PRESS BRAKE (gas effect now 0), AND TURN AND GAS LEFTWAYS (gas effect now +1.6), meaning that now you rotate at 31.8 rpm

Dunno if my explanation is confusing or not, but this is the theory behind the technique I used
Last edited by sunl on 12 Jan 2017, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by FinMan » 11 Jan 2017, 18:45

that makes a lot of sense, never thought about it that way. my guess wasn't too bad though i guess. :D is there any theory to prove my statement wrong though? because i think this speaks for it: if you go to a level with free fall and volt once, you'll have amount x of spin clockwise for example. if you counter the volt with another volt, you will actually spin to the other direction than your first volt. at the first volt your spin is simply 0. at the second volt your spin is -x relative to the direction you are doing the second volt in, which is counter-clockwise. ss there any other reasoning for this than volts being stronger with less spin? it also is way faster to stop your bike from spinning in fast spins too than to spin the bike with volts.

what you just explained in topic is pretty amazing though. it will help to improve normal live play as well for many players who are able to tackle the theory and apply it to their game imo.

btw, this spinboosting you explained harnesses the power of how alovolt works rather than gassing, even though gassing is what you actually abuse it with.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 11 Jan 2017, 18:55

Yeah I guess spinboosting is specific application of volting theory in elma. But for example spinboosting would be more powerful if gassing effect was more powerful. Now we're arguing over semantics :P

I think your theory about slower/faster volts is right, but wasn't part of what I tested for spinboosting. Didn't Smibu make a version of elma which displayed spinspeed or something for fem? If can find can check exact rotation speeds.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by culinko » 11 Jan 2017, 20:56

sunl wrote:HOWEVER, ELMA STILL THINKS THE EFFECT OF GAS IS -1.6 RPM. THEREFORE, YOU PRESS BRAKE (gas effect now 0), AND TURN AND GAS LEFTWAYS (gas effect now +1.6), meaning that now you rotate at 31.8 rpm
I wonder if this is intended or just a bug. Anyway very nice find. Can't believe tricks like this can be found after the game has been released for 17 years :D I wonder if any stuff is still hidden :lol:
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by 8-ball » 11 Jan 2017, 21:26

breaking the meta, love this!
sunl should give a shot at explaining other common microstyles, maybe more new stuff can be found
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 11 Jan 2017, 21:27

I think the volt in general was just shoddily programmed it seems :)

Random find: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1189

One day I will do a bit more research maybe into volting mechanics

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 12 Jan 2017, 06:43

Made another quick test using left volt instead of alovolt. Note that level can easily be finished faster, but was just testing the voltspeed

http://www.recsource.tv/r/gkqadyoejb
http://www.recsource.tv/r/zcbhaymrpd

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Zweq » 12 Jan 2017, 08:50

if adding that small throttle in normal volting is faster, then thats a fucking insane find. For alovolting throttling for the first alovolt was well known, but didn't know adding tiny extra "opposite" throttle on succeeding alovolts is optimal. Now that I tried alovolting with that extra throttle, it felt right from the start and was megaez to learn

For normal volting that throttle just feels wrong in the spine lal, gonna take some practicing i guess :P
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Igge » 12 Jan 2017, 09:27

Really cool find!

But explain to a stupid person: if normal volt is instant, how is this applicable to a normal volt? If you gas -Grpm before volt, then volt, elma sets speed to Vrpm+(-Grpm). If you then break and gas the other way elma will set speed to Vrpm+Grpm, but how is this different from just gas and volt (Grpm+Vrpm) from the beginning?

I thought the magic of spinboosted alo was that you change the rpm during the delay, since you can change rpm with gas without affecting the pre-defined rpm to be set by volt .2s after?
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by ofta » 12 Jan 2017, 13:54

cool stuff just a few q:

1. you say alo got 0.2s delay, is it poss to calculate/convert this to an exact # of frames?
2. what fps do you think benefits the most from this technique?
3. how important are the brake? sometimes doing just alo/turn/volt while falling can give 'similar' kind of speedboost.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by kuchitsu » 12 Jan 2017, 13:59

Total nab question: how much of the game does this affect? Like I think when zweq spinning was invented maybe many pros were shitting their pants in fear that they will have to learn it too, but in the end it turned out that it's useful only in very specific cases. What about this boosting, will it eventually become almost a requirement to make WRs, win big battles, etc?

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Grace » 12 Jan 2017, 14:06

Seems like it's probably a bit too fine-tuned for battles unless you're a Z-man, but certainly could be applicable in big cup events, and I guess there's some new internal styles possible with faster rotations, definitely some optimisations.

Nice find sunl - I mean, people have known about throttle boosting alovolts for literally 15 years, but certainly haven't abused or deconstructed it at this level.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Igge » 12 Jan 2017, 15:28

ofta wrote:1. you say alo got 0.2s delay, is it poss to calculate/convert this to an exact # of frames?
The # of frames during .229s depends on your fps, so to get that number just multiply your fps*0.229 and youll have it.
ofta wrote:2. what fps do you think benefits the most from this technique?
The way I see it fps doesn't affect the boost itself, but volting is always quicker in low fps anyway (correct me if I'm wrong)?
ofta wrote:3. how important are the brake? sometimes doing just alo/turn/volt while falling can give 'similar' kind of speedboost.
I do that too sometimes, but I think it's just placebo. Your orientation should have nothing to do with the spin rpm if you don't alter brake/gas etc.

To continue on this, if the delay of an alo is always .229s, and the 4/1 initial strength of volt is the same (fixes time rather than fps dependant, what's up with the delay in-between volts? How come I can perform my next volt quicker in low fps than in high fps? I'm guessing this has already been answered somewhere, but could someone enlighten me? 8)
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Xiphias » 12 Jan 2017, 15:35

Very interesting find! I'm sure a few sl wrs can be beaten with this trick.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 12 Jan 2017, 18:20

Igge wrote:Really cool find!

But explain to a stupid person: if normal volt is instant, how is this applicable to a normal volt? If you gas -Grpm before volt, then volt, elma sets speed to Vrpm+(-Grpm). If you then break and gas the other way elma will set speed to Vrpm+Grpm, but how is this different from just gas and volt (Grpm+Vrpm) from the beginning?

I thought the magic of spinboosted alo was that you change the rpm during the delay, since you can change rpm with gas without affecting the pre-defined rpm to be set by volt .2s after?
So you have to remember that alovolt is just a glitched normal volt, so the concepts of alovolt can sort of apply to normal volts as well. Normal volt is *not* instant. It has two phases. The "fast" phase and the "after" phase. Alovolt has the same two phases, except in the first ("fast") phase the bike does not turn, and then you have an "after" phase. Therefore, for normal volts, at 0.2 s, the rpm will be *set* as well. So you can do exactly the same thing as alovolt. And I agree with Zweq that for alovolt the whole spinboosting thing feels natural but feels very unnatural for normal volt

I would have to check the elma code itself or maybe Smibu/milagros/dawid can provide input, but my hypothesis for how volting works is the following:

There are two variables:
rpm
rotational_position_of_bike
For example, your bike can be upside down but rpm is 0

Left volt:
a) Press volt. In 0.2 seconds, rpm will be *set* to X
b) Fast volt portion: (Hypothesis) Every frame, change rotational_position_of_bike by -Y (adjusted to frame rate)
(I hypothesize that the actual rpm is not affected, but code would have to be verified. In the end it's not super important how this portion is done)
c) At 0.2 s, *set* rpm to X

Alovolt:
a) Press volt, In 0.2 seconds, rpm will be *set* to Q (the value of Q is glitched because adds the effect of left volt + right volt both in clockwise direction)
b) Fast volt portion: Bike does not turn because every frame, effect of left volt + right volt is applied equally to change rotational_position_of_bike by Y and -Y. Note that this implies that the first part of a left/right volt is rpm-independent unlike what Finman says
c) At 0.2 s, *set* rpm to Q

As you can see, the mechanism of the alovolt is the same as a normal volt, just a bit glitched because it combines left+right volts in a weird way.

So you can still spinboost with normal volt because the rpm is still *set* to a value in part c). Let's run through your case:

I change your example to right volt to get rid of confusing negatives:
You gas Grpm before volt, then volt, elma sets speed to Vrpm + Grpm.
*wrong*. Elma will set speed to Vrpm + Grpm 0.2s after the right volt. From 0-0.2 seconds, the rotational speed is increased by some fixed amount (which is greater than Vrpm+Grpm) (i.e. the "fast" phase). So during fast phase, your effective rpm is right now Grpm+FastPhaseConstant (referred to as "Y" above)
You then brake and gas the other way, so rotational speed is (-Grpm)+FastPhaseConstant
At 0.2 seconds, your rpm is set to Vrpm+Grpm
Now you brake again and gas the original way, so now rotational speed is (Vrpm+Grpm)+2*Grpm
Last edited by sunl on 12 Jan 2017, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 12 Jan 2017, 18:24

Igge wrote:
ofta wrote:2. what fps do you think benefits the most from this technique?
The way I see it fps doesn't affect the boost itself, but volting is always quicker in low fps anyway (correct me if I'm wrong)?
Spinboosting is fps-independent. Spinboosting takes advantage simply of the rotational speed from gassing left or right
Igge wrote:
ofta wrote:3. how important are the brake? sometimes doing just alo/turn/volt while falling can give 'similar' kind of speedboost.
I do that too sometimes, but I think it's just placebo. Your orientation should have nothing to do with the spin rpm if you don't alter brake/gas etc.
Are you referring to something like I explain about Madness' rec in my second post? If so I explain in there, or else I'm not sure what you mean.
Igge wrote:To continue on this, if the delay of an alo is always .229s, and the 4/1 initial strength of volt is the same (fixes time rather than fps dependant, what's up with the delay in-between volts? How come I can perform my next volt quicker in low fps than in high fps? I'm guessing this has already been answered somewhere, but could someone enlighten me? 8)
I somehow am not sure about the 4/1 initial strength of volt because it seems like initial volt strength is rotational-speed independent, and the second phase of rotation is rpm-dependent, as pointed out by Finman. Would have to check code to confirm that.

Not able to answer volting in low vs high fps, maybe someone else can weight in.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 12 Jan 2017, 18:27

Last point is an easier way of doing spinboosting is gassing when you press the volt-button, then just tapping brake so that wheel does not spin at the 0.229 second mark. This will give you 50% of the full spinboost effect, and is probably a lot easier than spamming spacebar. (just make sure you are gassing in right direction)

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Igge » 12 Jan 2017, 19:03

Wow, this is so cool! Thanks for explaining!

I never realized all the similarities between alo and normal volt, ie that both have 2 phases, but in alo the first one is simply negated (do to "fast phase" left+right = 0). Your post cleared up a lot!

Also I want to add that I'm not 100% sure that the delay between volts in low fps is shorter than in high fps. It's how I've understood it until now though, and it certainly feels like it when you try it (flat track start for instance). Some pro could probably verify/disprove this easily.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Zweq » 12 Jan 2017, 20:17

kuchitsu wrote:Total nab question: how much of the game does this affect?
Total nab guess but i think it will be more useful in ints than spin, just less flashy, i can think of couple of ints where this could help in theory. Now the problem is just to integrate the spinning in everyday playing, which is not going to be easy i think
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by bene » 12 Jan 2017, 22:15

Science is always good thanks for this.

I had a suspicion that adding the extra tiny throttle would be more optimal for alovolt because of some stuff I discovered when tasing but never tested it cause I am fat and lazy and didn't ever think it would be this much gain.
Never expected or realized it would work for normal volting that is an amazing find.

Is it oke to share the dats with optimal spinboost you did? I want to test somethink but I am fat and lazy to drive myself.

2017 is gonna be an amazing year for tasing elma with recent discoveries.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 13 Jan 2017, 00:02

http://kopasite.net/up/1t3895f1bunngn8/for_bene.7z

My spinboost is probably not perfectly optimal.

Further optimizations:
->Unclear if delaying initial volt to set-up spinboost for first volt will net a better speed overall (untested, but probably does not if do a back-of-the-handkerchief calculation since half-spinboost gives 5.5% boost, and it takes 0.1 seconds to set up full spinboost (11.5% boost), and you can volt 1x/0.9 seconds)
->Didn't check to get exact timing where I should brake & turn the first time. Approximated to should be throttling opposite direction for 0.10 seconds but didn't check this number super well
->Every brake I do could possibly last 1 frame less long (didn't check all of them exactly)
->I could possibly brake+turn the second time 1 frame earlier (might or might not work, didn't want to test because if doesn't work then spinboosting would have been decreased)
->Didn't play around with framerate
Last edited by sunl on 13 Jan 2017, 03:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by culinko » 13 Jan 2017, 02:13

Now go make flat track 13,xx 8)
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 17 Jan 2017, 03:45

Discovered that some people have already been tapping brake while volting to increase volting speed. This is exactly the same thing as spinboosting, just not as "optimized" because it works at half strength as the full spinboost.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by A.K.B. » 17 Jan 2017, 04:12

I have been using this technique for a while now. Very useful in hoyl levs.
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Bjenn » 17 Jan 2017, 08:46

It also works for lowering your speed of spinning some extra when you want to do that.

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Abula » 16 Mar 2018, 13:23

sunl wrote:
10 Jan 2017, 20:28
I improved on Madness' increased alospeed that he demonstrated in bumpy journey.
Is this explained/shown somewhere?

Really cool stuff this spinboosting!

Is this utilized in any internal WR?
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 17 Mar 2018, 06:26

Sla used it in 02 wr: http://www.recsource.tv/r/jkegwndrxu
It's also used in one other wr style, but I'll leave that up to speculation

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by Abula » 17 Mar 2018, 09:26

http://www.recsource.tv/r/kczwqlsteo Bumpy start has by bene?
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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by sunl » 17 Mar 2018, 15:24

Darn Abula is too smart. That's not the real replay of spinboosted start though. You can save 0.10 s over the replay you linked if you do a slightly different/better spinboost there. Nothing public though

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Re: Improved rotation when volting (spinboosting)

Post by bene » 19 Mar 2018, 08:52

Actually the spinboost attempt bumpy start I did is public: http://www.recsource.tv/r/drxmtsoyjf

I tried playing it live for a long time and could work and be faster but I never got consistent at it. Feels like the old start is better when playing live dunno im :bear:
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