What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

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Zweq
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What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Zweq »

Hi I thought of gathering a list of tools and discoveries for playing elma better, ordered by date. These are all major events and mark and important milestone in at least internal levels wr times improvement.

This is not a list for playing discoveries such as bouncing or braking during spin or wheelpop but for "external" sources of improvement.

For now I will only gather a list cba to check for dates right now.

- Merge replays - Nitro patch 2000-06-25
- Training levels - Internal specific, aka who found about qwquu and how - xxxx
- Centered camera - Improved piping - 2002 ?
- Alovolt button - Now there was a button for alovolt instead of tediously trying to hit left + right in the same frame - 2002 ?
- Different resolutions - 2002 ? Although I doubt anyone realized you can lower resolution to get better fps and possibly improve playability that way
- Part1 of fps tuning - Changing monitor hz to get different acting bike - 2003 ?
- Part2 of fps tuning - Switching vsync off - darmoed or some russian coder realized fps is what matters ? - 2004 ?
- Part3 of fps tuning - FPS limiter and keypress buffering to remove keypress delay on lowfps by milagros - 2009 ?
- Hourglass - This is like "improved training levels" - 2012 ?
- Smibu saveload - Above - 2012 ?
- Milagros saveload - Above - 2014 ?

Impsy to determine:
- Computers that can reach extreme fps actually start to exist - Impsy to determine date

Not so major but noteworthy:
- Using 2 different fps values during a ride - Turning external HDD on/off / Using screenshot button - 2006 / xxxx?

Hidden from public:
- Some tool Darm used 2003 ?
- Some tool coc0k etc used 2009 ? Widespread in russian community?
- Milagros saveload - 2010 ? to 2014 ?
Last edited by Zweq on 28 Nov 2017, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by kuchitsu »

Should belma be included in here as well? I think it's quite important since it allowed people to see each other live, learn from spying, give tips, etc.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by bene »

Zweq wrote: - Some tool coc0k etc used 2009 ? Widespread in russian community?
Imo these recs driven with darm sl. Anp can probably confirm this.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Zweq »

One interesting question is, what tools will the future bring? Or do all tools exist already that are somewhat within "legit" boundaries? One tool that could arguably be legit is an ability to have two different fps setups during playing that you can switch between freely, because you kinda can do that theoretically anyway? Switching between 30fps and 200+ fps in warm up would be extremely beneficial at least.

This is the last thing I can think of that would help bring the wr tt down.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Xiphias »

2019-2020?
Machine learning approach? Figure out a way to translate replays to user inputs from all replays (preferably fast ones) and have the system learn how to play and improve times :)
This would only be good for style/trick finding I guess. And of course future bots to play against :)
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by SveinR »

Zweq wrote:One interesting question is, what tools will the future bring? Or do all tools exist already that are somewhat within "legit" boundaries? One tool that could arguably be legit is an ability to have two different fps setups during playing that you can switch between freely, because you kinda can do that theoretically anyway? Switching between 30fps and 200+ fps in warm up would be extremely beneficial at least.

This is the last thing I can think of that would help bring the wr tt down.
Probably the most interesting thing in regards new styles would be left alo if ppl would accept it... your thoughts on that Zweq?
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by pawq »

Xiphias wrote:2019-2020?
Machine learning approach? Figure out a way to translate replays to user inputs from all replays (preferably fast ones) and have the system learn how to play and improve times :)
This would only be good for style/trick finding I guess. And of course future bots to play against :)
Replaying keystrokes at certain precise times doesn't work because of the inherent randomness. The algorithm would have to respond to the bike's behaviour, so would indeed need to learn the physics. Maybe in Elasto Mania 2049 ;)

Also I'd personally be very against left alo. It would essentially make it a different game and all achievements to date would go to the bin.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by kuchitsu »

We still don't have ghost bike except for a very raw test version by David that nobody really uses I think. I believe it could help a lot, it would be like next level rec merging.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Sla »

Left alo = new wr table (just as common as any other tables).
Ghost bike would be really userful for internals and battles too. I hope one day we can apply it in EOL.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by SveinR »

pawq wrote:Also I'd personally be very against left alo. It would essentially make it a different game and all achievements to date would go to the bin.
Yeah it would make it a slightly different game opening up lots of new possibilities that you can't do now. But I think that would be interesting, especially seeing how the internal scene is stagnating - it would create fresh ideas and draw people in to hoyling internals again I think.

However, it is of course true that it would change a fundamental part of the game and add something which isn't possible originally - I just wonder if, after 20 years, would that necessarily be so bad...?
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by danitah »

Duno if it would be good or bad, but imo one of the things that make elma interesting is the way it is assymetric because of alo. Sure it would create more interest in internals again, but I don't see how it would be good for the game as a whole. Why would we want to change things to make internals interesting? Better to focus on making external level-packs more attractive imo. Of course after almost 20 years improvements are going to stagnate, it's just natural.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Hosp »

I agree with danielj. Tho I think a left alo patch just as a fun project could be cool! But definitely shouldn't be implemented in EOL/the main game you know, just as a side-dish of sorts
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Zweq »

SveinR wrote: Probably the most interesting thing in regards new styles would be left alo if ppl would accept it... your thoughts on that Zweq?
To me left alo is same as increasing throttle power or making volts stronger. Altering mechanics and creating tools to easily gain effects that are already theoretically possible are two separate things.

But of course you knew that and meant it to come out differently. As a separate project left alo sounds interesting.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Lousku »

I think if we introduce new mechanics, they should add something to the meta (giving rise to new types of tricks). Alo alreadi exists and I can't see how combining left+right alo would result in any new tricks. So yeah it would bring some new styles to internals but overall I see it as removing complexity from Elma, since going left would no longer be different from going right.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by SveinR »

Lousku wrote:I think if we introduce new mechanics, they should add something to the meta (giving rise to new types of tricks). Alo alreadi exists and I can't see how combining left+right alo would result in any new tricks. So yeah it would bring some new styles to internals but overall I see it as removing complexity from Elma, since going left would no longer be different from going right.
I don't know, I think it would require us to think differently about our playing in general, which could be inspiring not just in internals. But sure, as a novelty it would soon wear off and it might not take long to adjust.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by milagros »

merging replays was already in nitro and that must have been around already in 2001, if not 2000
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Abula »

"In 2000-06-25 a patch named Nitro was released."

Zweq: really nice collection! Never heard of Hourglass. And this external HD .. quite lol.

http://code.google.com/p/hourglass-win32/

So Hourglass just speeds down/up/pause the game? Can't see how that helps because you lose the touch?

I don't remember when those internal training levels were spread or who exported them.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by milagros »

nitro was in 2000, but im not sure if the first version already had merging
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by sunl »

There was also a program almost ten years ago where you would input I think in a ?text file or something the exact times at which you wanted keypresses to happen, and then the game would run in slow motion (?fixed fps) and press the keys at the corresponding times.

Tried to find it but seems to have disappeared without a trace from my emails/records

I think Xiphias might know what I'm talking about.

Dunno if it's the same as edg's autoplayer: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2469

Edit: Not really related to the topic but I made this around ten years ago: http://kopasite.net/up/0/ElastoMania.rar
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Xiphias »

sunl wrote:There was also a program almost ten years ago where you would input I think in a ?text file or something the exact times at which you wanted keypresses to happen, and then the game would run in slow motion (?fixed fps) and press the keys at the corresponding times.

Tried to find it but seems to have disappeared without a trace from my emails/records

I think Xiphias might know what I'm talking about.

Dunno if it's the same as edg's autoplayer: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2469
It was called autoplay if I remember correctly. It would trigger keystrokes at timestamps as you say.
Very tedious if one would want to get good times with that program, specially since the randomness of the game was not circumvented. If you autoplayed the same file few times you would get different outcomes.
If this was DarMoeD's main cheating program then mad probs to him for the dedication!
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Orcc »

I remember Karlis höyling Warm Up with autoplay but couldn't break the wr, only got very close to it. Maybe some 14,10 times
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by sunl »

Ye that's what I remember Xiphias. Wasn't fixed-frame like mila's
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Zweq »

I remember autoplay now, I had completely forgotten about it. It seemed useless back then and I don't think anyone became a better player or improved their legit times by using that tool.
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by ofta »

well one thing i wonder is that i have a feeling some levs are ezier with 0.5 zoom

i duno why but i suspect some pops are 'heavier' with zoomed out move cuz i feel some things in elma are a 'set distance' rather than proportional

e g my repeat 12 rec i drove with 30 fps and 0.5 and i would never ever in my life get that time with any other settings

so in the future i think ppl will be able to beat many wrs with zoomed out low fps buggy shit mode

thoughts on this? anyone else have the same feeling?
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Schumi »

the source is unknown for me, but in 2002 an ALOVOLT addon was released to Elma. it can be that the software had released earlier.

you can check it here:

http://kopasite.net/up/k81up231rr73b6a/alovolt.zip
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Re: What is the correct timeline of new tools for improving

Post by Abula »

DarMoeD's vsync article (http://dmd-elma.narod.ru/Stuff/Vsync.htm) was published in 2002-09-01 (http://dmd-elma.narod.ru/oldnews.htm).

The discussion started on Mopolauta in 2002-09-08 (viewtopic.php?t=346 ) and in 2003 some more people (at least dz, Karlis, Zweq? Luther?) were tuning vsync (viewtopic.php?t=414).

In 2004-12-02 Zweq published the vsync lev list: viewtopic.php?t=2810

EOL beta finally included the setting in 2010-07-20.

The first time I see timer on/off mentioned on Mopolauta relating to vsync discussion is Sathy in 2005-09-07 in private forum when we were writing the Tweaking article for Paprika. Pretty sure the setting was utilized way before that?

Vsync has always been a sexy topic, many people hate it because Elma is about simplicity for them, but in reality vsync wasn't that important except in some levels (Animal Farm being the most notorious one) and especially when going for WRs. Much more important is that the game runs smoothly. The best explanation I found was veezays: viewtopic.php?p=128071#p128071

Would be interesting to know who used vsync first time and in what level in a way that is remarkable. After DarMoeD's article the first WRs looking possible to have vsync issues to me are:

Karlis Freefall 0:12,24 in #97 (2002-10-12)
Karlis Hooked 0:17,90 in #99 (2002-10-26)
Karlis Gravity Ride 0:25,45 in #106 (2002-12-27), 0:25,40 in #107 (2003-01-04) and 0:25,29 in #108 (2003-01-11)
Zweq Uphill Battle 0:21,16 in #111 (2003-02-01)
Zweq Sink 0:32,84 in #115 (2003-03-01)
Zweq Haircut 0:41,88 #116 (2003-03-08)

Zweq's first WR ever was in table #109 (Bumpy Journey 0:36,82, 2003-01-18) so I'm a bit sceptical that he used vsync already in #111? Although all his times are in levels where the vsync can be important?

I though DarMoeD used traditional SL but apparently he used this autoplay (viewtopic.php?p=260867#p260867). (edited 2018-03-31)
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