mila ghost bike petition

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ribot
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mila ghost bike petition

Post by ribot »

Considering the activity is decreasing, and wr's getting closer to limits of human possibility, we definitely need the ultimate tool now for progress: ghost bike taken from optional rec. So in this post we can offer our gratitude to mila for his eol efforts, and sign your name to show him your appreciation for making ghost byke possible.

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Labs
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Labs »

i think he wont do it anyway, but you get my signo
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pawq
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by pawq »

I'm pretty sure that would be the single greatest improvement that's at all possible in elma, but hasn't mila explicitly said he wouldn't do any more work on eol? We're probably best off encouraging Smibu to keep working...
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Kopaka »

Is it really that useful? If you're going for a WR for example, any replay you can ghost will be either behind you or just so slightly ahead that there's not enough time to respond to it. Or if you have some sl replay that's far ahead then it's too far so you can't see it. Just sounds more annoying than useful, but I may be wrong.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Lousku »

Ghost mopo is alreadi implemented in Elma 2, if you wana see how useful you'd find it.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by danitah »

Kopaka wrote:Is it really that useful? If you're going for a WR for example, any replay you can ghost will be either behind you or just so slightly ahead that there's not enough time to respond to it. Or if you have some sl replay that's far ahead then it's too far so you can't see it. Just sounds more annoying than useful, but I may be wrong.
You would make a realistic rec in sl, and when playing against it you would get instant feedback about where your key-presses are slightly wrong. Would be super useful.

I see where people are coming from, but I think I'm still against this being implemented. I don't really like the idea of 'make things easier to force internal WR activity' at all.
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Tm
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Tm »

agre with kopaka, ghost is very annoyo. no signature
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by pawq »

Wtf annoying, you can just have it off while other people make use of the benefits.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Tm »

i am absolute, i know bestest. still no signature.
thanks you for letting me have an scientific onion on human attention distraction thingies

have best of day

cons:
1. having concentrated attention on live kuski while hoyling even slight changes in ghost bike position messes up instantly with your perception on live kuski position so as to brain losses its exact mapping on the very near future driving space. simply put, it's harder to expect live kuskis position 0.2sex ahead.
2. this could be argued against for example by stating that there are some players who do not concentrate attention on kuski as specific detail but gazes thru it. actually, in some cases this is superior as you let your brain go from central info processing to peripheral one which improves your future bike position expectancy ability. tho it's unlikely you can bare with the gaze method the whole run for long periods of time by that i meaning - 12-15 sex. so still, on longer levs, where ghost should be of some use, you just would end up by swithching brain processing from central to peripheral and vice versa exhausting yourself.
3. you could also argue that trackmania is very cool ghost bike. yes it is, but its due to different position of players seeing angle (pov vs. side). bigger size of trackmania vechile imposes less effects on con no. 1 mentioned above.

pro / con.
1. motivation thingie. varies from person to person, one might get very agile and strong fingers from the fact that he loses to ghost bike, some might just give up and esc. dunno if this is even worth mention.
2. for cruise and fun - is fun, no question.
Last edited by Tm on 7 Dec 2017, 11:04, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Hosp »

I'm not sure as to what to feel about this. Have always thought teh would be a max thing to have, but if it turns out it's very helpful could be annoying if basically 'hev' to use it when höyling and not cruising.
I say we implement it for a month or so then have a poll where people vote about whether it should stay or not, dunno
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by danitah »

Kinda no point in putting it in eol first and then decide if want to keep or not, since then people will have it for offline and can use it for style practise which is what it's most useful for imo. Also would be a lot of work to add it if not even sure if going to keep it. Anyway quite useless constantly talking about eol features for years when nothing gets added. But didn't know it's already in elma2 so wouldn't make much of a difference if it got put in eol now imo.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Kopaka »

pawq wrote:Wtf annoying, you can just have it off while other people make use of the benefits.
well yeah, my concern was not so much about that, but rather is it even useful enough that's it's worth the effort to make. I've never been into the fine grained hoyling, so would rarely be useful for me, so I was more trying to ask if people have really considered the usefulness.
danitah wrote:Anyway quite useless constantly talking about eol features for years when nothing gets added. But didn't know it's already in elma2 so wouldn't make much of a difference if it got put in eol now imo.
Yeah discussing features for eol at this point is pretty much moot. However it is very relevant to discuss elma 2 features, even if they're already made. Things like this affect the game a lot and we need more discussions regarding do we want them or not, etc.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by culinko »

Kopaka wrote:Is it really that useful? If you're going for a WR for example, any replay you can ghost will be either behind you or just so slightly ahead that there's not enough time to respond to it. Or if you have some sl replay that's far ahead then it's too far so you can't see it. Just sounds more annoying than useful, but I may be wrong.
My usage of this would be to have this off from the start of the lev and after a certain trick or at a certain spot I'd just press the toggle button twice to show and then hide the ghost bike to briefly see whether I'm ahead or not. If I'm ahead I'll continue the run, if I'm behind I just esc to stop wasting time with a shit ride.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by ribot »

the way i see the ghostbike is that i can compare with my best ride (or someone with similar skill) if i'm ahead, which is a very good feedback for knowing if i can break the record this ride or should restart... seems very powerful to me

however, we could also look at other similar games and see if ghost bike works there... if there is anything like that?
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by danitah »

Just knowing if I can beat my time or not in a run doesn't seem very useful for me.

These would be my main uses:

- Competing against myself.
One of my favorite things to do in trackmania is create some 10min+ lev and play it many times and at the same time play against all of my ghosts. For some reason this is super enjoyable for me, kinda like playing an ff with more people each run. I would love to do this in elma as well.

- Copying styles
I guess mostly for internals, easier than the classic way of merging, instant feedback.

- Learning a lev
It's very norm in a balle to go 'how the fuk did I make that time?'. With ghost you could easily see where you accidentally made better moves.

I don't really understand what Tm is trying to say at all. You don't just follow and 'react' to where the bike is with your eyes when you play, your brain estimates how the bike will move based on your intention with what you do. Ghost bike should also be transparent and dif enough that it doesn't get mixed up, not to mention a toggle button, so yeah I just don't understand what he's trying to say.

I guess now I convinced myself that I'd sign this petition if it would actually mean anything. Btw we totally need possibility for >1 ghost)
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by ribot »

don't underestimate the power of petitions!

you have awesome feedback about why ghostbike should exist, so why be pessimistic about it?

the post was about giving mila some appreciation, because he has done a lot of good work for us... no fun for him to come and read all pessimism... so just give appreciation because it's the right thing to do, and keep your pessimism to yourself
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Lousku »

Yes both transparency and multipel ghosts are already in Elma 2.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Madness »

danitah: I don't think you would be able to copy styles with this at all. You would never be in the same position as the ghost kuski and even if you were, you wouldn't be able to do volts at the same time. The only use would be that you could compare with your or someone else's best run to see if you're ahead and esc if you aren't - save some time when hoyling WRs (or die at the end because of the tension knowing you have such a good run).
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Zweq »

but but elma2 is practically unusable in its current state because all times you drive are obsolete. I would gladly use elma2 for internals (random example) if it was possible, but it isn't.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by danitah »

Madness wrote:danitah: I don't think you would be able to copy styles with this at all. You would never be in the same position as the ghost kuski and even if you were, you wouldn't be able to do volts at the same time. The only use would be that you could compare with your or someone else's best run to see if you're ahead and esc if you aren't - save some time when hoyling WRs (or die at the end because of the tension knowing you have such a good run).
I guess pretty useless to continue just discussing this, so I made an attempt to learn Flat Track, a lev where I had no idea of good moves from before, just using ghost rec. Quite painful zoom in elma2 for me, so I think I could easily do better if could change zoom and see more detailed. Still think I kinda started to get the hang of it after 15mins, and should be pretty obvious from video how useful it is. https://youtu.be/kcGQoG70NkM?t=20
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Tm »

Thank you for empirical effort, danitah. Looks nobrainer inefficient. And using normal syntax and semantics translates to this: this type of learning looks hardly transferrable to normal hoyling process, even more - for wring [which is the main purpose this petition is called for].

to avoid further apple oranging problem I should make myself clear, that my previous post on cons and this very comment is directed towards ghost applicability for wring (or some ultra high level hoylage around 37tt [very bad estimate i know]), not for cruise battle thingies during which you'd, of course, get instant feedback, which is moderately ok. tho instant feedback while already having an in-depth knowledge in lev only distracts a certain kuski (yes, kazans, spefs and zweqs are also distracted).
Last edited by Tm on 8 Dec 2017, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by milagros »

it's doable (same as for example showing kuskis from internet data) but as i explained in another thread, i can't compile in win7 anymore so I can't do any update
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by danitah »

Tm wrote:Thank you for empirical effort, danitah. Looks nobrainer inefficient. And using normal syntax and semantics translates to this: this type of learning looks hardly transferrable to normal hoyling process, even more - for wring [which is the main purpose this petition is called for].

to avoid further apple oranging problem I should make myself clear, that my previous post on cons and this very comment is directed towards ghost applicability for wring (or some ultra high level hoylage around 37tt [very bad estimate i know]), not for cruise battle thingies during which you'd, of course, get instant feedback, which is moderately ok. tho instant feedback while already having an in-depth knowledge in lev only distracts a certain kuski (yes, kazans, spefs and zweqs are also distracted).
I still don't get it. You argue as if people would have ghost on 100% of the time. Imo in the case of going for wr you would only put on ghost to learn precise key presses from a SL rec, then you would turn it off. If having problems in a certain spot later you could play against ghost again to try correcting what you are doing wrong and turn off ghost again. Though probably much easier to use merge in this case, especially if it's far into a long lev.

Anyway I don't think this would bring a huge revolution and tons of new wrs, and I wouldn't use that as an argument for adding it. It would be just a minor extra practice tool. But I think there are lots of other pros to adding it as well.
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Re: mila ghost bike petition

Post by Madness »

danitah: Trying to copy moves like this really is useless and won't get you anywhere. You need to understand the moves and get the feel for them. It's not about pressing buttons at the same time as somebody else did (or at the same time as you did before).
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