Do we want a new version of Elma?

Feature requests and ideas for the new unofficial versions of Elma and general talk related to those.

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Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Smibu » 4 Sep 2012, 21:17

Background: About a week ago I managed to reconstruct Elma's physics engine in C code. I've tested the code by making a few autolevs and comparing the generated recs to original Elma v1.11a's ones. So far they've been identical.

I'm asking whether there's any interest, sometime in the future, to have a new version of Elma (developed by programmers in Elma community), made from scratch. The new version would, of course, have the same physics engine and be backward compatible.

Or is EOL just fine?

As we know, EOL has been gradually developed (by hibernatus and later milagros) on top of original Elma.exe (1.11a) by patching the assembly code to fix bugs/add new features. This is quite error prone and not very convenient, and it's quite hard to implement anything more complex.

Having the full source code would make development a lot easier.

As for what kind of new features there could be, see this for example: http://www.moposite.com/info_games_new_versions.php

There are also many replay players around (especially jonsykkel's replayer which is C/C++ and looks good), so it most likely wouldn't take too long to put things together and make the first version.

So what do you think?

Proof or didn't happen? Sure :) -> Command line Elma (works only on Windows Vista or above and not on XP because I used Visual Studio 2012 to compile it)

Note: If you want to discuss the features of this new Elma, use Elma 2 topic. Use this topic only for discussing whether we should/should not have a new version of Elma.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ville_j » 4 Sep 2012, 21:26

Very najs! I am very interested in this. Mila was supposed to extract physics and give to jonsykkel or someone so that the community could possibly develop something new, but as far as I know he never gave the physics to anyone. Jonsykel was eager to make Elma 2.0 I guess. Anyways, I think this is great news, if not for "official" transition from current elma to new one, but "for fun" at least. Cool, I'm excited!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku » 4 Sep 2012, 21:36

This is something I've been dreaming of since I started playing belma. EOL has been great but obviously lacking and too buggy for Kopaka to save it completely.

The real question: is there interest in putting effort to develop it?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel » 4 Sep 2012, 22:02

holi shit!
prety sik that you actually did this, this could potentialy be the begining of the next chapter of elma. ) im all for a completely new elma i think its about time. dunno what your plans are regarding this but would be very nice to know!
did a few testrecs, though i couldnt get Elma_111a_fast.exe to create identical recs to Elma_111a.exe, dunno what might be the reason but im sure its trivial
http://kopasite.net/up/ixtos5nn4i85l7w/ptest.zip
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq » 4 Sep 2012, 22:05

yes we want of course, but when is the right time? that is the question.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Orcc » 4 Sep 2012, 22:34

Pls make as close to this as possible

http://i.iinfo.cz/urs/Screenshot0005-12 ... 223159.png
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq » 4 Sep 2012, 23:05

holy shit, it would be epic... the makers would have to be careful not to change anything important for the awesomeness of the game, like those in non-wanted section in mopo

btw
mopo wrote:Not wanted:
Gravity apples (but if there must be ones, there should be some kind of arrows inside the apple showing to which direction it changes the gravity)"
:D

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Hosp » 4 Sep 2012, 23:07

I would like this but nothing new in the gameplay liek that, just more features in the game and options.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lukazz » 4 Sep 2012, 23:36

sick. do want.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by culinko » 4 Sep 2012, 23:43

1. do the recs vary in those autolevs? i remember always getting different time in autolevs in elma, sometimes even death/got stuck.

2. could you (with the community's decision about precise values) fix bug bounces?

3. i need toggle ghost bike badly :S

i agree for the most of the stuff in "new versions", except new internals, different grounds that affect the bike movements and no idea about the fps/vsync on/off stuff.

also from the http://www.moposite.com/info_games_elma.php#Bugs agree with all except adding left alo, removing bounces and no idea about the "weird wheel behaviour" thing.

keep up the good work!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku » 4 Sep 2012, 23:51

Pawq wrote:btw
mopo wrote:Not wanted:
Gravity apples (but if there must be ones, there should be some kind of arrows inside the apple showing to which direction it changes the gravity)"
:D
Yeah, who exactly decided that the community thinks a game mechanic as predictable and solid as gravity apples is not wanted, while something like this actually is wanted?
Different grounds like ice, mud, water (maybe only in external levels) to effect the bike's moving abilities
Getting offtopic, but that's a bit silly imo. :)
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball » 5 Sep 2012, 00:08

I think left alo is a must.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ideas » 5 Sep 2012, 00:14

Lukazz wrote:sick. do want.
gpled open-source would be nice.

it would be nice to have balazs' approbation, at least for legal reasons -- would a copying of the physics engine be legal?

problem of course would be increased risk of hacking in cheated times, or even real-time cheating balles through save-loading;

edit: omg if i am right that means hope for a native linux version!

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel » 5 Sep 2012, 00:48

my vision for an eventual new elma is kinda lik this new game from scratch with these things:
-same physics except for: drawing frames independent of physics so the physics engine would always run at a constant high fps (1000 or so) while the graphics are processed as fast as the comp can handle. i beliv this is also kinda what mila wanted when we spoke about this about a year ago also he said bugbounces are caused by an actual bug in the code and can be removed completely
-left alo? i think this would be a good time to introduce it, after all its just a bug that everyone has gotten used to. not sure what pipels thoughts on this are
-24bit graphics
-new file formats for everything but with lev/rec/lgr backwards compatibility
-when you make a time offline it would be locally cached and encrypted and uploaded next time you connect to the servik
-antixiit things everywhere
-auto updates from the server
-ircify ingame chat so it can be accessed from any irclient + posibility to create channels (was thinking remove policy on eng use and instead encourage use of a separate channel for those who insist on using another lang for whatever reason, #privet.ru etc)
-new interface with convenient things
-i seem to be the only one who wants this but - put ragdoll when you die (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0un4tsxIndw) obv turnoffable efect

i guess if we were to remove bugbounces and or add left alo we would have to start a new branch of wr tables etc and it would be kinda like an across->elma transition
ok had some more ideas i think but cant remember
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku » 5 Sep 2012, 01:26

Sorry for another short post in an important topic but:

Cursor could be a way to make the interface a lot more efficient with a relatively tiny change. EOL doesn't have that many functions and it's running out of buttons already. Plus how many of us can actually remember what to press for every single function? Very good list, jon. Agreeing with all of it, especially ragdoll deth.
then again i don't know anything
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ideas » 5 Sep 2012, 01:44

jonsykkel wrote:-left alo? i think this would be a good time to introduce it, after all its just a bug that everyone has gotten used to. not sure what pipels thoughts on this are
not sure if gameplay should be changed. either no changes or lots of changes, i guess.
jonsykkel wrote:-antixiit things everywhere
are we talking closed-source or what? because it seems to me problematic.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Grace » 5 Sep 2012, 04:24

Smibu wrote:sdfgs
If this works and we can generate an elma 2 of sorts, you have redeemed yourself fully :P
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by anpdad » 5 Sep 2012, 05:56

This would be epic, almost like those source ports for old games that enhance everything and add sik features.
I dont agree with jon about left alo, imo it shouldn't be added (it's not possible to do it in original engine), but there could be an option for that just for lulz. Also console with commands like in fps games, weird shit like manual bike/wheels/head sizes for new mongo balle types etc etc.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel » 5 Sep 2012, 06:02

Haruhi wrote:If this works and we can generate an elma 2 of sorts, you have redeemed yourself fully :P
its nat like he hacked elma with the intention of ruining anything, he just pointed out a huge and obvious flaw. for al we know there could be wrs on previous tables done with sl blabla if anything smibu has done more for the scene than most and it is gay that some pipel still think this way
anpdad wrote:I dont agree with jon about left alo, imo it shouldn't be added
yeu im nat too sure about that one, it does bring a funy unique twist to the game
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Smibu » 5 Sep 2012, 06:12

Ok, thanks for the initial comments! The first thing I'd like to find out is why jon is getting different recs from these exes. I tried the same lev and got identical recs. So it must be something with the CPU supporting/not supporting some instructions (?) (elma_cmd is compiled with Visual C++ 2012, so it's a very new compiler).

Try these: elma_cmd_strict and elma_cmd_fast. Those are compiled with different floating point model (not sure if it happens because of this, but let's try, I don't have any other ideas why it would happen atm).

I'll try to answer other questions asap.
CuLiNo wrote: 1. do the recs vary in those autolevs? i remember always getting different time in autolevs in elma, sometimes even death/got stuck.

2. could you (with the community's decision about precise values) fix bug bounces?

3. i need toggle ghost bike badly :S
1. No, they don't vary because physics are emulated as fast as possible. Without emulation (i.e. playing "realtime") they would vary because the timeGetTime() function returns different values depending on how much the OS is busy doing other stuff (or this is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong).

2. Possibly, not 100% sure yet. I've found a place in the code which could be causing bug bounces, but as I said, I'm not sure and it should be tested first.

3. Not hard to implement.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel » 5 Sep 2012, 06:22

Smibu wrote:Try these: elma_cmd_strict and elma_cmd_fast. Those are compiled with different floating point model (not sure if it happens because of this, but let's try, I don't have any other ideas why it would happen atm).
tested with same result, the recs generated by all of the elma_cmd* match eachother
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by totem » 5 Sep 2012, 06:33

Could not try executables, which are not "valid win32 applications".

How do you plan to open it to other deveoppers (svn, git ? public/private ?)

tips:
Unit tests have to be used from the very beginning

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Smibu » 5 Sep 2012, 06:55

Ok jon, I sent you a pm to test with one more exe.. let's continue debugging in pms.

totem, strange error, what OS do you have?

About version control... I haven't thought that far yet.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq » 5 Sep 2012, 07:01

possibly (un)related headsup: a few days ago i was testing some autolevs with FPS limited at 30. With timer on there was a shitton of variation between the rides, but with timer off there seemed to be only 1-2 possible outcomes. It seems weird to me because shouldnt the timestep be constant when FPS is limited at 30 on a capable machine :P, why would switching timer have an impact.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by abruzzi » 5 Sep 2012, 07:10

now all the mysteries of elma may be explained... it's like getting to know how the universe was created... or what was going on 100/1000/10000 years ago... or reading someone's mind... or exploring other civilizations and organisms on their respective planets
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Grace » 5 Sep 2012, 07:40

jonsykkel wrote: its nat like he hacked elma with the intention of ruining anything, he just pointed out a huge and obvious flaw. for al we know there could be wrs on previous tables done with sl blabla if anything smibu has done more for the scene than most and it is gay that some pipel still think this way
I agree with you, i don't harbour many angry feelings to smi and i really like him, just that many people DO think that way.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lee » 5 Sep 2012, 08:14

Moposite wrote:Not wanted
  • Better graphics
I disagree with this. There should be some graphical enhancements:
  • At least 24-bit colour, with alpha channel (for ghost bike),
  • Anti-aliasing,
  • Hi-res pictures/objects,
  • More graphical customisation for level editor (eg. Fixed bg, horizontal scrolling bg, vertical scrolling bg).
Also:
  • Tabbed chat (for private chats, etc.)
  • 'Achievements' selection in main menu (Shows list of all achievements and displays simple personal stats like % of achievements completed).
Go ahead with Elma 2.0, it's a great idea.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball » 5 Sep 2012, 09:30

Oh yeah, mouse is a must, so no need to remember 100 key combinations.
Also, native windowed mode option.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Ropelli » 5 Sep 2012, 09:51

daayumm.. quite nice :D i think the hardest part for the new elma is beaten, and theres only that coding for the new version. what comes to the update, i think it should be made from scratch. itd be also good to keep it platform independent, that is, use eg boost libraries for interfacing witht the os. the actual code should be closesourced ofc, to make more safe against cheating etc.
if teh coding for new version gets started, i think itd be good to make proper design decisions about how the framework for the game is made, how to control the project, all that kind of stuff.
what comes to the actual game, itd be best to keep it as close as original as possible. so features are only added to expand the game, not modifying the mechanics.
i could help with teh coding and project managing, got quite exceptional knowledge with c++ :p

Edit: teh smibu exe may not work if it uses teh newest visual c runtime libraries. it should be compiled with static runtime :p
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ville_j » 5 Sep 2012, 09:51

I also tested the levels jon posted and I get exactly the same files from both of the exes. However, I made one test lev myself and the recs were few bytes different.

Edit: And the differences seem to only exist in the bytes that indicate whether the player is facing left or right.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by culinko » 5 Sep 2012, 10:30

about left alo: there could probably be left alo battles, left alo cups, or maybe some form of unofficial left alo wr table, etc. but not used on regular internals/externals, because there would be 54 new WRs and imho this won't be elma anymore.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by zebra » 5 Sep 2012, 10:50

Very nice Smibu! I could be implementing some features for it :)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by umiz » 5 Sep 2012, 11:04

Smibu: We want.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lukazz » 5 Sep 2012, 11:22

CuLiNo wrote:about left alo: there could probably be left alo battles, left alo cups, or maybe some form of unofficial left alo wr table, etc. but not used on regular internals/externals, because there would be 54 new WRs and imho this won't be elma anymore.
i agree
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by totem » 5 Sep 2012, 12:18

Ropelli wrote:daayumm.. quite nice :D i think the hardest part for the new elma is beaten, and theres only that coding for the new version. what comes to the update, i think it should be made from scratch. itd be also good to keep it platform independent, that is, use eg boost libraries for interfacing witht the os. the actual code should be closesourced ofc, to make more safe against cheating etc.
if teh coding for new version gets started, i think itd be good to make proper design decisions about how the framework for the game is made, how to control the project, all that kind of stuff.
what comes to the actual game, itd be best to keep it as close as original as possible. so features are only added to expand the game, not modifying the mechanics.
i could help with teh coding and project managing, got quite exceptional knowledge with c++ :p

Edit: teh smibu exe may not work if it uses teh newest visual c runtime libraries. it should be compiled with static runtime :p
I agree with all this, except for static building (at least during development time)

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness » 5 Sep 2012, 12:24

Lukazz wrote:
CuLiNo wrote:about left alo: there could probably be left alo battles, left alo cups, or maybe some form of unofficial left alo wr table, etc. but not used on regular internals/externals, because there would be 54 new WRs and imho this won't be elma anymore.
i agree
I disagree. If one gets used to playing certain battles with left alovolt then it will be confusing to play another levels without it. However, I'm all the way for the left alovolt! If elma shall be revamped, this is definitely the way to go. Plus eliminating the bug bounces. I think mila said before that it wouldn't be that hard. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point in making a new Elma from scratch if you only add some useless unnecessary fancy stuff we could happily do without.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq » 5 Sep 2012, 12:32

Lee wrote:
Moposite wrote:Not wanted
  • Better graphics
I disagree with this. There should be some graphical enhancements:
  • At least 24-bit colour, with alpha channel (for ghost bike),
  • Anti-aliasing,
  • Hi-res pictures/objects,
  • More graphical customisation for level editor (eg. Fixed bg, horizontal scrolling bg, vertical scrolling bg).
I agree that everything cuold be improved to high-res, but what should remain is the core of the graphics - all shapes etc

and I pretty much agree on everything else :D

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by trew » 5 Sep 2012, 12:39

Madness wrote:
Lukazz wrote:
CuLiNo wrote:about left alo: there could probably be left alo battles, left alo cups, or maybe some form of unofficial left alo wr table, etc. but not used on regular internals/externals, because there would be 54 new WRs and imho this won't be elma anymore.
i agree
I disagree. If one gets used to playing certain battles with left alovolt then it will be confusing to play another levels without it. However, I'm all the way for the left alovolt! If elma shall be revamped, this is definitely the way to go. Plus eliminating the bug bounces. I think mila said before that it wouldn't be that hard. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point in making a new Elma from scratch if you only add some useless unnecessary fancy stuff we could happily do without.
I agree with all this. Alovolt is an amazing move and a left version of it is something I definitely want. There will of course have to be separate WR-tables for the versions.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by J-sim » 5 Sep 2012, 12:45

this is really really exciting!!
wander if left alo would force me to go over to alo's with right hand style or if it would make sense to be doing both left and right alo with left hand. i think i would have a hard time learning how to actually play with both alos. could make you almost an elma virgin all over again!

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by culinko » 5 Sep 2012, 12:50

what's the point of left alo on official wr table? cutting one minute of wr tt in one week or what?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq » 5 Sep 2012, 12:55

well the specification is really simple:
- Everything must work and look like in elma. Obviously for menus and editor it is enough that the look and the feel are the same.
- Software design must be flexible so possible new features are "easy" to add. Possible new features should be something like arrows in grav apples, larger levels, increased polygon count and vertex count limits. Not something like reversed alo.
- Some of the most obvious new features can be taken into account in the design before implementation phase. Like... let's say undo in editor.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Grace » 5 Sep 2012, 13:21

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ville_j » 5 Sep 2012, 13:23

Haruhi wrote:http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8474

These should be linked.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Ropelli » 5 Sep 2012, 13:34

totem wrote:I agree with all this, except for static building (at least during development time)
Just meant that if teh current smibu commandline exe doesn't work its maybe because of teh dynamic runtime. maybe when teh first versions of the new elma exe gets published it could distribute those dlls aswell.
Zweq wrote:Software design must be flexible so possible new features are "easy" to add.
i think this is the main point of teh new exe. it should be so flexible that when something new gets introduced it would be fairly ez to implement in the exe without changing all kind of irrelevant code. such means that the code should be quite generalized, and it should provide a framework to work with :D dno, maybe it helps the team-like-developing

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by culinko » 5 Sep 2012, 13:44

Zweq wrote:well the specification is really simple:
- Everything must work and look like in elma. Obviously for menus and editor it is enough that the look and the feel are the same.
- Software design must be flexible so possible new features are "easy" to add. Possible new features should be something like arrows in grav apples, larger levels, increased polygon count and vertex count limits. Not something like reversed alo.
- Some of the most obvious new features can be taken into account in the design before implementation phase. Like... let's say undo in editor.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by abruzzi » 5 Sep 2012, 13:56

Zweq wrote:- Everything must work and look like in elma.

all of the respect for zweq and his conservative feelings, changing almost nothing would be missing a bit opportunity, why want it to be so serious since we have the key to the world now? as long as we somehow hold the competitiveness, some ultra new things like gears, finite amount of fuel, teleports, or even water or moving objects are good, also technical issues like left alo and braking with chosen wheel instead of dual brake
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Smibu » 5 Sep 2012, 14:14

I agree with all the "design before coding" suggestions. I really learned that while making Elmanager.

As an application framework, I'd suggest Qt. It is cross-platform, actively developed and has good documentation and example codes. Any other suggestions?

The exe is statically linked, at least should be. The runtime library is "Multi-threaded" and the other option would be "Multi-threaded DLL".

ville_j: I have got those similar minor differences too. I found out that the sin(x) function in Visual C++ 2012 may return slightly different values than the FSIN instruction. I asked about this on Stack Overflow.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ideas » 5 Sep 2012, 14:29

abruzzi wrote:
Zweq wrote:Everything should work and look like in elma.
all of the respect for zweq and his conservative feelings, although changing almost nothing would be missing a bit opportunity.
On the contrary.

Although I have not been around for as long as Zweq has been, I can state, with emphasis, that the Elma WRs has been the sole element which have make me stick around the scene for all those years.
CuLiNo wrote:about left alo: there could probably be left alo battles, left alo cups, or maybe some form of unofficial left alo wr table, etc. but not used on regular internals/externals, because there would be 54 new WRs and imho this won't be elma anymore.
I could not have said it any better: "because it would not be Elma anymore."

On another topic, sure, Smibu, one should start with the basics. Personally, I am a big fan of minimalism. Sure, ghost rider would be a nice implementation, but I am sure that starting with the basics is a sure way to go.
Smibu wrote:As an application framework, I'd suggest Qt. It is cross-platform, actively developed and has good documentation and example codes. Any other suggestions?
I know nothing of that stuff, except I have heard that the popular Ubuntu Linux distro favors GTK+ instead of Qt (because of GNOME), or something like that.

Perhaps there should be more chat about the relation of Balazs to all of this, too. It might be better to talk to him before he discovers anything going on in his back.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Ropelli » 5 Sep 2012, 15:11

pls make irc chanel or sumthin to discuss about this implementation thing

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq » 5 Sep 2012, 16:17

I also am against the left alo. Having a separate leftalo table would be quite pointless imo, kinda like the sl table. plus, as somebody said, everyone would have to learn elma basically from scratch, this time using both alos. That's not really the point of elma 2.0 is it?

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