Do we want a new version of Elma?

Feature requests and ideas for the new unofficial versions of Elma and general talk related to those.

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Lousku
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku »

Igge wrote:
Lousku wrote:Also pasibel simple addition: levs without flowers. Take all appels and it's finished.
Just add a flower to every appel
Yeu, I know this has been done but it's messy and can't see what you've taken on teh map! o,o Shouldn't be a huge job to implement.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Ecchi »

I can draw penises in mspaint? ? ? me win prize???
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by totem »

Lousku wrote:Shouldn't be a huge job to implement.
Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe you'll have to design code in a way you can replace regular finish policy (all apples, then flower) by another one (apple battle, any-order-apple-no-flower, etc.) == Huge Job; Or you add special tests for each case everywhere in your code == Big Messy Job.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Zweq wrote:well the specification is really simple:
- Everything must work and look like in elma. Obviously for menus and editor it is enough that the look and the feel are the same.
- Software design must be flexible so possible new features are "easy" to add. Possible new features should be something like arrows in grav apples, larger levels, increased polygon count and vertex count limits. Not something like reversed alo.
- Some of the most obvious new features can be taken into account in the design before implementation phase. Like... let's say undo in editor.
I agree with everything. I guess there should be "offical" elma port, but it also should be made easy to create alternative forks with nitro speeds etc.

I don't think there is need for arrows on or near apples, just add some subtle visual clue. Do something simple like rotated apple. If apple is upside down, its gravity is up etc. I also think that standard LGR should be entirely drawn using SVG or something like that to make game more future proof (very high resolutions friendly). I guess new level format should make it easier to create good looking levels. Like choosing textures colors, custom pictures, less limits on polygon count and level size etc.

I believe the core game mechanics should be left intact. Like collecting apples before flower etc. I guess some tweaks can be made to accommodate new game modes, like apple battles where after you die, you no longer see already take apples etc. Ability to play apple , speed etc levels/battles(?) offline is another idea. Still most emphasis should be given to traditional hoyling.

I'm not sure whether left ALO should be implemented. Gameplay should be simple. Maybe invoking ALO using left and right buttons should be easier than now? I don't think we need another (4th?) button for volting.

Nobody said anything about sounds. I think it would be cool to have different engine sounds for driving in tight pipe and different for huge open areas (echo?). Also it would be nice to be able to hear other bikes. The sound should also be aware of level design. So you wont hear bike which is behind polygon as well as bike with no obstacles between you and the bike etc.

Oh and ability to record very long rec files (longer than 1 hour) is must
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by zebra »

Chris wrote: I don't think there is need for arrows on or near apples, just add some subtle visual clue. Do something simple like rotated apple. If apple is upside down, its gravity is up etc. I also think that standard LGR should be entirely drawn using SVG or something like that to make game more future proof (very high resolutions friendly). I guess new level format should make it easier to create good looking levels. Like choosing textures colors, custom pictures, less limits on polygon count and level size etc.
What would be really cool is that when you take a gravity apple, the level would actually rotate around so that the gravity would be normal (down) all the time :) Maybe that could be considered as cheat, though... :)

I also agree that all limits should be removed.

To get the game high-resolution-friendly, we need that man who could create some new graphics for the game.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

zebra wrote:To get the game high-resolution-friendly, we need that man who could create some new graphics for the game.
Well, what is the point of add 24bit support if you don't create new graphics?

I'm not sure we need no limits, but there should be much more freedom than we have now.

Rotating camera may be cool option, but yes in some cases in can be viewed as cheating.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

of course any replay produced with this project if it ever gets done is totally ineligible on any old record tables(same the other way), that is because there was some talk to fix the fps-dependency by making physics step 1ms. So it wouldnt make any difference to rotate on gravity , at least in terms of "cheating", it might still be annoying if there's many grav apples, but otherwise quite good (and obvious) feature.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

zebra wrote:What would be really cool is that when you take a gravity apple, the level would actually rotate around so that the gravity would be normal (down) all the time :) Maybe that could be considered as cheat, though... :)
I tried to set key shortcuts in gpu drivers for that once, but elma fucked up each time :D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by ville_j »

Ropelli wrote:Still, the project should be actively developed, so it should have at least couple of people who understands coding and the code. Now what I have experienced, there are actually quite few people who could actually do this. And it seems they aren't that interested in it. For example, totem said he won't have much time on it, and others haven't done anything about the code yet. They haven't been that active on the plannings a
either. It will take forever if there aren't people actually making this happen. Features can be discussed later, now people should focus on the making.
I would like to help as much as possible and nothing would be more honorable than be developing Elma 2, but apparently I don't have the time to really get in to it. In few days I haven't had time to follow the progress or discussion very intensely and I have completely fallen out of the situation atm. Also, I do not have great skills in c++, only done some very basic things at school, and dunno what is this boost library you are talking about. So dunno how to contribute, or if I have enough time to actually make something which is not completely irrelevant.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by nick-o-matic »

This sounds very nice.

If it's really going to be Elma 2.0 instead of Elma 1.4, I think there's no reason to respect historical restrictions to playability, i.e. I would like to see right and left alo at the same time there. Also, I would definately wan't to see invidual brakes for both wheels. It would allow very much new tricks. Nowdays it's really annoying if you want to make a nice bounce but your non-bounce wheel is touching some vertex and terminates the bounce when you press brake.

With these changes we would need to have 9 different contol keys:

-throttle
-turn
-right volt
-left volt
-right alo
-left alo
-brake for both wheels
-brake for right wheel
-brake for left wheel

But most of us have 10 fingers so it's np and the invidual brakes wouldn't be needed in most levels anyway.

Also, IF there's going to be different physics for different fps, there should be some buttons from which you can alter the fps because you can do it nowdays too with the timer button for some extent. You could for example program that from button "O" the fps changes to 33 and from "P" it goes to 999.

Of course some incredible ingame stuff like sending recs/levs to other people and ingame chat connected to irc etc are a must. :)

I think that if the end result will be as epic as it sounds now, it should be commercialized. I believe it would become very popular. Of course we should ask Balatz and offer him most from the profits. I don't think he will say no to free money.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

nick-o-matic wrote:Also, I would definately wan't to see invidual brakes for both wheels. It would allow very much new tricks.
i would stop playing the game -.-
nick-o-matic wrote:I think that if the end result will be as epic as it sounds now, it should be commercialized. I believe it would become very popular.
what do you mean by very popular? 100 copies sold within the scene? ...
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Grace »

nick-o-matic wrote: I would like to see right and left alo at the same time there. Also, I would definately wan't to see invidual brakes for both wheels.
For a second, i thought you weren't trolling. Thank god!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

What about in-game switching between rear-wheel drive, front-wheel drive and two-wheel drive?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

3D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

I dont want to go play and not know 90% of the people online. Elma community is like a family (with many retarded children), fuck "popular". Fuck your individual brake too. And while we're fucking so hard fuck all that fucked up shit. Just clone elma k10x and put undo, move poly and copy paste in internal editor for ramone
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by nick-o-matic »

Madness wrote:What about in-game switching between rear-wheel drive, front-wheel drive and two-wheel drive?
YES, I just was thinking about this! That would really give us so much new possiblities!

Actually it would be awesome if we could make both wheels operate completely independently from each others! I mean we could have for both wheels gas and brake separately, and also we could have reverse gas! This would make turning unnecessary, as it would be equivalent just for changing the direction of gasing. With that, the amount of needed control buttons is exactly matching our amount of fingers:

-gas for right wheel
-reverse gas for right wheel
-brake for right wheel
-gas for left wheel
-reverse gas for left wheel
-brake for left wheel
-right volt
-right alo
-left volt
-left alo

You could arrange these so that for example if left hand's pinky finger does left alo, right hand's pinky finger does right alo.

Seriously, think what you could do. When the other wheel is in air, you could always perfect the bike's spinning with either forward or reverse gas. In pipes you could pipe head first fast. Front wheel bounces would became much easier when you don't have to care about the back wheel (is it touching the ground?). Can you remember the rec BarTek once shared in General section where he did the cool turning and he called that "bartbounce"? That kind of tricks would became very much easier, while they are now nearly impossible as the front wheel isn't allowed to touch ground. The IQish hard levels filled with small hangy polygons (I hope you know what I mean) would get so much new styles. The list is endless.

Elegance of this thought is almost killing me. I however understand many aren't as excited. So how about making to the new elma two versions that would have their own battles etc? The first one (let's call it Elma 1.4) would be just improved version of EOL without left alo and stuff. And the second one (let's call it Elma 2.0) would have all these amazing renewals. It would be nice if you could switch between these ingame.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by nick-o-matic »

Zweq wrote:I dont want to go play and not know 90% of the people online. Elma community is like a family (with many retarded children), fuck "popular". Fuck your individual brake too. And while we're fucking so hard fuck all that fucked up shit. Just clone elma k10x and put undo, move poly and copy paste in internal editor for ramone
I think we could have some server with password for all the oldschool guys.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by culinko »

we need to have police patrol for ticketing you going too fast.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

what the fuck is this shit nom?!?!?! of course adding tons of new bullshit would increase the amount of tricks possible, just as invincibility would, but that's not the fucking point!!! THe point is to improve elma, not make a different game. if you want some fucked up shit you can as well add 3D visuals, ABS and ESP to the bike, but we want ELMA

and if you make 2 separate games i'd say elma 2.0 will go down just as eol pack did, people will be excited for about a month, after what they will return to the good old ints/whatever.

think about what kind of people are around here. people that play the same game for, 5, 10 or 15 years don't thrive for anything revolutionary. they play this game for so many years for the way it is, for its pure awesomeness and oldschoolness.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Kopaka »

Jappe2 had a good idea on how to handle all such new types of gameplay. A mod menu. Meaning by default, you have the normal elma gameplay we know. Then in the mod menu you can turn these special gameplay types on and off. There could be a bunch of stuff there that comes with the game, say left alo and such, but then also have the possibility that you can make/code your own mods and add them in this menu. Would be better than a fully open source elma where you edit something and then it's not compatible with the server or sach. And it is made very clear that these are extra functions that you can't use for the normal records tables.

The elma physics are pretty uniquely awesome, eventhough we would likely still play the normal way by far most of the time, it would be fun to be able to use elma's physics in new ways. Of course this is a long way ahead, coding wise, but it might be worth to consider early in the overall design of the code.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by anpdad »

add both left and right alo so that we can do alo of an alo
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Morgan »

donno if it was mentioned, havent read every post, but i want 1 thing in new / current elma:
automatically saving every best time rec with custom pattern like :
05morgan1999 or kos2444morgan1543 etc)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball »

How about lets vote on which of the controversial features we would actually like to see ingame?
Upvote if you like the feature, don't vote if you don't care either way and downvote for something you explicitly don't want to see in Elma 2.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elastomania/com ... in_elma_2/
Feel free to post your crazy or not so crazy ideas.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

What about physics simulation or autoplay in editor, continue previous testride from whatever point after doing modifications on level. Can also toggle to draw the mopostate in some framesteps to draw the ride
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pakizito »

Sorry, but i don't understand one thing.
Who is the creator of the game?
There is no source code for elasto?
Can we talk to the creator?

For me it's best game ever on the digital world... thanks to all the contributor, all the players who made the game a challange.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Smibu »

Maybe it's time to tell a little about the progress with the Elma 2 project.

One big step was to separate the physics code to its own "component" so that it's easier to use. We've done that now.

Another step was to choose a suitable OpenGL GUI framework for the menu system. We decided to pick CEGUI, as it turned out to be the best based on some testing. Other GUI frameworks either lacked some useful features or they were very hard to set up and use due to lack of documentation. One advantage of this CEGUI is that it's easy to customize the "look and feel" of menus.

The next step could be that we design the initial structure of menus, and also think about the general design of the whole game. When this is done, we could upload the first version to get some feedback about it.

There has been some uncertainty about whether the WRs driven in old Elma are still legit in Elma 2 (or the other way round). If we don't make any modifications to the physics code, we have no problems because the physics code is an exact representation of what's inside the original Elma.exe. So any ride driven in original Elma can also be driven in Elma 2, and the other way round. Of course this may not be the case if some new features are added and/or bug bounces are fixed.

There has also been some talk about having "constant FPS" in the physics engine. This would basically mean that the rides in autolevs would always be exactly the same. Technically, this means that the timestep parameter that is passed in physics calculation code is constant. In original Elma, this timestep parameter isn't constant (it depends on how fast the last frame was rendered), which is why there is a slight variance in rides even in autolevs.

Note that FPS doesn't have to be strictly constant. It would be easy to make a button that switches FPS during the ride (for example 500 <-> 30). This would certainly be useful in some levels that require different FPS in different spots. It might be considered a cheat, too. However, is this fundamentally any different from alovolt or FPS limiter? So, should it be possible to alter FPS during a ride? (It definitely will be possible to adjust FPS in options for the whole game, in the same style as FPS limiter in EOL works).

Fixing bug bounces involves editing physics code, of course. We haven't figured out yet how exactly the bug should be fixed and how bug bounces exactly happen, but it's likely that there's some division by a near-zero value at some point. There are many places in physics code like this: if (variable < 0.0001) variable = 0.0001; which are probably meant to prevent some bad things from happening. It might be that Balazs had forgot to include this kind of check in some place(s). Anyway, it's hard to say how much this kind of check affects the physics, at least without testing.

About those left alo/reverse gas/one wheel brake/etc suggestions: I think the best solution (as initially proposed by Jappe) would be to have different modes. As a simple example, we could have two modes: "Classic" and "New". The "Classic" mode would have the same physics and limitations as original Elma, while the "New" mode would have those new features enabled. What exactly those new features should be is an open question.

The only possible bad side in this would be that we might be creating 2 different games: some people might play only using "Classic" mode and some other only using "New", splitting the community in two "camps".

First screenshot (mainly to prove that we've made some progress): here

As you can see, the default look and feel of the window is not very elma-like, but it is easy to customize it. Only the default font was changed in the picture. :)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lukazz »

Smibu wrote:Note that FPS doesn't have to be strictly constant. It would be easy to make a button that switches FPS during the ride (for example 500 <-> 30). This would certainly be useful in some levels that require different FPS in different spots. It might be considered a cheat, too. However, is this fundamentally any different from alovolt or FPS limiter? So, should it be possible to alter FPS during a ride? (It definitely will be possible to adjust FPS in options for the whole game, in the same style as FPS limiter in EOL works).
definitely yes, should be possible. it's possible to do similar things already, when you turn off/on timer during the ride. i even used this when i was trying the brutal style in hi flyer. the bounce was easier for me with a little lower fps and the brutal with high fps, so i just turned on the timer after the bounce. i'm sure many kuskis have done things like that already, so it shouldn't be a big deal if this becomes an implemented feature.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Either that or lock at 999. I am not much in favor of changing things into a "modernized" version, but to me it seems every level would have to be started at 30 fps, then switched back to 999, etc., which would be kind of departing from the intended experience.

The bigger question remains the one of anti-cheating measures. I am sure others are more suited than I am to discuss solution approaches to this problematic, who contents in asking questions.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Bjenn »

I would not like if you could change FPS values during middle of a ride, I consider that very much as a cheat. I didn't react like this at all when FPS-limiter came. You could change FPS with different techniques already, but this tool was a great step for internal höyl. I never change timer though when I'm playing, I either play the whole ride with or without timer. The thing is that it would be so mongo to be able to change fps while driving (even if you had hotkeys) because it changes the physics quite much, and everytime one hoyl an internal you have to adapt to the fps you are playing with on that level. I'm playing 120 fps on serp (talli style) while 999 fps on Expert for example, and the difference between these values are pretty big when you compare the bike behavior. If this was to be implemented, firstly I would not even use it, secondly I would think it would be unfair if then some people could master it.

Also if Elma 2 would have a constant fps, not being able to change with FPS limiter, it would change the whole game, and it would not be worth playing anymore, at least for me, so then I would suggest a "Classic" version as Smibu mentioned.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by zebra »

Note that FPS limiter is not needed or can't even be used if the physics FPS doesn't depend anymore on drawing FPS.

My suggestion is that you can adjust the physics FPS from options but you can't edit it during run. In my opinion it makes playing too complicated if you could adjust it during run. And it takes the focus to irrelevant stuff like FPS switching. You should be able to focus on driving :)

If I would be making the first version of elma, I would probably set the physics FPS to some constant value, like 100, and set that it can't be adjusted anywhere.

If the FPS can be adjusted from options, we have to define some default value for it. Is it 60/100/200/500/1000 or whatever, I don't know, but if it's too high, slower machines won't be able to calculate it in real-time which makes playing impossible, or at least reduces the drawing FPS significantly. Anyway, 999 isn't any kind of limit here.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel »

zebra wrote:slower machines won't be able to calculate it in real-time which makes playing impossible
im perty sure any machine that is made after 1995 should be able to do at least liek 30000 physics fps
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Bjenn »

I think John still has his old elma computer with crt monitor, am I right?
With this he had some techniques including running winamp to get lower fps or something like that =D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Bjenn wrote:I would not like if you could change FPS values during middle of a ride, I consider that very much as a cheat.
There are a lot of ways to do it nowadays though.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

That's the point.

If it was locked at a high value, would not it make all bounces acceptable? Or, are weird bounces still possible in this case?

I know though that locking at a high value would make some current wrs hard to beat. It would be problematic for Shelf Life, among others.

Alternatively, zebra draws a sensible point -- run-locking it. Although it would have to be verifyable through rec analyzing if the fps still not has been changed anywhere, because extraneous tools might provide the unfair advantage of run-changing the fps, even if their use is not considered legitimate.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by anpdad »

Bjenn wrote:IIf this was to be implemented, firstly I would not even use it, secondly I would think it would be unfair if then some people could master it.
quoted to save it for teh futurz and be able to come back and laugh at this epic logic anytime :D
I dont get what's wrong with changing fps while driving. It could alter gameplay in some cases into something horrible-looking for current state of mind ("zomg 10 fps changes in a second, more keypresses for fps than for driving" kind of attitude), but it's not a rational argument :p
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Igge
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Igge »

This is kinda similar to the discussion about alo button. Since there already are ways to alter the fps in the middle of a ride, shouldn't it instead be equally easy for everyone to do so? Though I guess alo still feels a bit more "relevant" to the game than fps.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

Ye, altering fps is one of the things that are already there (unlike left alo), so making a hotkey or whatever would only simplify the usage, not revolutionise the gameplay.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

anpdad wrote:I dont get what's wrong with changing fps while driving.
Well, it kind of goes back to what I wrote above:
twipley wrote:to me it seems every level would have to be started at 30 fps, then switched back to 999, etc.
I remember reading Zweq writing that Flat Track benefits from being ran at low fps. So, it would be to determine when one is to benefit from having it set in a certain way. If it's 999 in most cases, then back to 30 in some other cases, such as going flat, or needing to enter too-small holes, it shouldn't be too hard to switch while driving after some practice.

Though, there's still so much I don't understand concerning vsync-value effects, for example concerning bounces. If benefits would be coming from switching more often than volting, then I think it would suck. If, on the other hand, 30 fps is to benefit one only in certain specific circumstances, then the switch becomes less frequent, which would make it for the better.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Regarding menus. I don't know whose idea it was, but anyway.. when I play some level I would like to see list of all replays from that level. Now in elma I can only save replay, play again or see best times etc. Additional replay menu that aggregates replays from one level would be great.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by zebra »

anpdad wrote:("zomg 10 fps changes in a second, more keypresses for fps than for driving" kind of attitude), but it's not a rational argument :p
I think that is a rational argument. I wouldn't want to think of changing fps in the middle of the run.

It's also funny that people are talking about 30 fps and 999 fps. They are not any kind of limits. You could set only 1 fps or 10000 fps (physics fps) if we don't set any limits.

If physics fps is higher than 60, vsync should be used to minimize processor occupancy (vsync wouldn't affect physics fps).
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by anpdad »

You're just talking about taste, like Bjenn did. Refusing to do something just because you dont feel like doing it. Technically it's not an objective reason, unlike the ones Igge and Pawq posted.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

keep that skin in, bro.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

I don't see any need for any fps hot keys. As I understand the game would aim for fps interdependency, so fps shouldn't affect physics. I believe that in theory the physics should be constant for everyone.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball »

So that means WRs would have to be reset because things like Animal Farm start would become impossible?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Tigro »

or animal farm poss, but uphill battle/hi flyer impsy
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Xarthok wrote:So that means WRs would have to be reset because things like Animal Farm start would become impossible?
It doesn't matter. There will be new WR table for "new Elma". They are 2 different games, like Elma and Across. I highlighted relevant part. Of course this is nothing official yet, but Zweq has good reasoning. They will be similar games, but not identical.

Zweq wrote:of course any replay produced with this project if it ever gets done is totally ineligible on any old record tables(same the other way), that is because there was some talk to fix the fps-dependency by making physics step 1ms. So it wouldnt make any difference to rotate on gravity , at least in terms of "cheating", it might still be annoying if there's many grav apples, but otherwise quite good (and obvious) feature.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

if physics are untouched (which is supposed to happen in the classical mode or whatever right?), why wouldn't the recs be illegitimate?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku »

Is there a development consensus on fixing bug bounces and vsync effects? I've only seen a couple of players say they should be left in, and I can't see a reason for that.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by abruzzi »

Maybe someone (me and Lousku?) make some final physical issues list (like one wheel brake etc.) and someone from the crew will tell the current decision status on each?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Lousku wrote:Is there a development consensus on fixing bug bounces and vsync effects? I've only seen a couple of players say they should be left in, and I can't see a reason for that.
Then, see further. ;)
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