Do we want a new version of Elma?

Feature requests and ideas for the new unofficial versions of Elma and general talk related to those.

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku »

Pawq wrote:for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
1. Calm your testicles down.

2. Who said there's something bad about that?

3. That's exactly what's happening. Did you think Ropelli would go around the world and delete every old copy of elma from existence?
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Lousku wrote:
Pawq wrote:for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
Calm your testicles down.
LMAO.

Ye, Pawq has grown to bear active testicles. Lots of movement inside. Testosterone outpouring. :)
Lousku wrote:
Pawq wrote:for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
Who said there's something bad about that?
Well, I must say I'm with Pawq on this one. Indeed, nothing is wrong about that, although it seems some are (in a disruptive manner) eager to see fundamental changes.

While one part of the scene is having difficulty in seeing the reason for leaving physics unchanged, the rest is at great length in seeing the reason for changing them.

For it to be clear, both positions are legitimate. What is needed is, like the Buddha has put it, right communication. (Hegel has it going on.) Beatles have some disc.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

let's go to elma 1.11b and everyone will be happy ;D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

1.11hb for alovolt, VCR-style controls, and rec merging, although dubious secureness in relation to cheating potentials.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Pawq wrote:for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
What's the point of having another version where it's all fixed, when the main official version would remain the same? Be that as it may, but let's not have a shitload of different versions at least.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Lousku wrote:Is there a development consensus on fixing bug bounces and vsync effects? I've only seen a couple of players say they should be left in, and I can't see a reason for that.
There is a bit from Smibu doc

•No matter what system you're using, Elma would behave in same way; vsync and stuff like wouldn't have any effects; drawing frames independent of physics so the physics engine would always run at a constant high fps (1000 or so) while the graphics are processed as fast as the comp can handle

Madness wrote:
Pawq wrote:for fuck's sake, what's bad in leaving one version unchanged, with all the physics identical, so that stuff can be compatible both ways, and another, say "mod" version with all the stuff fixed/addeD?
What's the point of having another version where it's all fixed when the main official version would remain the same? Be that as it may, but let's not have shitloads of different versions at least.
I totally agree. I don't know why we shouldn't fix any issues like vsync bugs etc.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Kopaka »

That doc is more of a brain storm than anything else.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Kopaka what is the point of making new game when we leave most of bugs present? Give me a reason to leave vsync as it is now. Why we should still be bond to someones subjective judgment of what is bug bounce and what is not, while we have now unique opportunity to get rid of them? Why should Smibu and others designers use graphical engine that affects physics, while there is opportunity to provide constant experience for everyone?

Remember that nobody stops anyone from making any combined WR tables or statistics.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

There are lots of reasons. All of the current record tables would get reset, we would have to agree on some certain constant fps value, the outcome might not be perfect as some bugs could remain/appear,...

I don't think it's worth scrapping all of the current records only because of this. If something groundbreaking was to be added (like left alovolt), then it would be a slightly different story.

After all, vsync has its charm.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Madness wrote:There are lots of reasons. All of the current record tables would get reset, we would have to agree on some certain constant fps value, the outcome might not be perfect as some bugs could remain/appear,...

I don't think it's worth scrapping all of the current records only because of this. If something groundbreaking was to be added (like left alovolt), then it would be a slightly different story.

After all, vsync has its charm.
Nobody will stop anyone from combining tables!

Vsync issue can be solved in more elegant fashion where you just adjust physics frames rate limit (or whatever is that called, so everyone would be able to achieve any physics effect without need to play elma in 320x240 resolution. That could be some kind of compromise.

About bug bounces, I guess it would be better to arbitrary adjust some limits in game, rather than still depend on px or Abula judgment. That would allow new WRs to appear automatically.



Anyway I guess it would be nice to have new offical internal levels + classic internals.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Chris wrote:Nobody will stop anyone from combining tables!
There are two possibilities. Currect record tables would go to some sort of archive, or there would be two record tables, two Elmas, two camps.
Chris wrote:Vsync issue can be solved in more elegant fashion where you just adjust physics frames rate limit (or whatever is that called, so everyone would be able to achieve any physics effect without need to play elma in 320x240 resolution. That could be some kind of compromise.
Theoretically, this wouldn't change anything. It would still be dependent on your computer.
Chris wrote:About bug bounces, I guess it would be better to arbitrary adjust some limits in game, rather than still depend on px or Abula judgment. That would allow new WRs to appear automatically.
How do you want to set limits? Removing bugs completely would be easier imho.
Chris wrote:Anyway I guess it would be nice to have new offical internal levels + classic internals.
I disagree. It would turn out the same way as EOL pack.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Madness wrote:
Chris wrote:Nobody will stop anyone from combining tables!
There are two possibilities. Currect record tables would go to some sort of archive, or there would be two record tables, two Elmas, two camps.
Chris wrote:Vsync issue can be solved in more elegant fashion where you just adjust physics frames rate limit (or whatever is that called, so everyone would be able to achieve any physics effect without need to play elma in 320x240 resolution. That could be some kind of compromise.
Theoretically, this wouldn't change anything. It would still be dependent on your computer.
Physics engine would be quite efficient on any modern cpu. The problem with elma is that it uses cpu to draw frames and handle physics, instead of using gpu for drawing. CPU is highly inefficient in drawing.

About the rest I think that firstly the bug bounces indeed can be removed. Secondly if the new pack will be built in like internals in elma, with some statistics etc I don't why it shouldn't gain any traction.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Chris wrote:
Madness wrote:
Chris wrote:Vsync issue can be solved in more elegant fashion where you just adjust physics frames rate limit (or whatever is that called, so everyone would be able to achieve any physics effect without need to play elma in 320x240 resolution. That could be some kind of compromise.
Theoretically, this wouldn't change anything. It would still be dependent on your computer.
Physics engine would be quite efficient on any modern cpu. [...]
It already is.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

does setting fps constant for all times make either some low fps levs like shelf or some high fps levs impossible, or am i very very wrong?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

@Madness
And your point is? Unless you set some ridiculous limit any cpu would handle it well. Since fps/vsync dependency would be reduced to absolute minimum, there shouldn't be any issues with custom physics setting that I proposed.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel »

Chris wrote:The problem with elma is that it uses cpu to draw frames and handle physics
wat
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Madness wrote:
Chris wrote:About bug bounces, I guess it would be better to arbitrary adjust some limits in game, rather than still depend on px or Abula judgment. That would allow new WRs to appear automatically.
How do you want to set limits? Removing bugs completely would be easier imho.
Is this the same ages-old debate in which I am the only one to consider bounces according to their legitness rather than to their buginess?

/I suck. :roll:
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Chris wrote:@Madness
And your point is? Unless you set some ridiculous limit any cpu would handle it well. Since fps/vsync dependency would be reduced to absolute minimum, there shouldn't be any issues with custom physics setting that I proposed.
My point is: Why would you ever consider reducing it to some minimum when it could be completely fps-independent?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

jonsykkel wrote:
Chris wrote:The problem with elma is that it uses cpu to draw frames and handle physics
wat
It doesn't make any use of hardware acceleration?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

@smibu: My opinion is that it looks like there is no way to change only one thing about the physics and have all old rides "clean", so I guess the best is to either A) Change nothing or B) Go for full changes 1. fix that physics step to some high hz and never allow changing it ever 2. see possibility to fix bug bounces.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

Smibu wrote:About those left alo/reverse gas/one wheel brake/etc suggestions: I think the best solution (as initially proposed by Jappe) would be to have different modes. As a simple example, we could have two modes: "Classic" and "New". The "Classic" mode would have the same physics and limitations as original Elma, while the "New" mode would have those new features enabled. What exactly those new features should be is an open question.

The only possible bad side in this would be that we might be creating 2 different games: some people might play only using "Classic" mode and some other only using "New", splitting the community in two "camps".
please, oh please do that! two camps? well, i guess we could probably live with that, my guess is that one of the camps would naturally blend into the other one with time.
but by making only one of those you spoil the fun for those wishing to have it otherwise! i, and probably some other people too, would love to have all the physics, fpses and bugbounces unchanged. by making only the mod version with all the fixes you'd simply take that away from us, because, obviously, with all the online stuff moved to the new version, we'd have to go along (or be left ages earlier in the offline world).
By making two, in a way separate versions, you would satisfy everyone, as everyone could play elma just as they want to!
After all, as you're making the fixed version anyway, it wouldn't be too challenging and time consuming to just copy the old physics and set up a different mod hm?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

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Pawq wrote:does setting fps constant for all times make either some low fps levs like shelf or some high fps levs impossible, or am i very very wrong?
Why should it be possible to stuff your wheel through a gap smaller than the wheel? Just because it's always been that way? C'mon... That style is becoming obsolete anyway.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

because it's fucking funny, that's why!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Chris »

Pawq is fucking mad ;)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Shelf Life is as funnier without passing in tight holes. ;)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball »

it's a nab style anyway :D but what about Animal Farm?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

anal farm would suffer dramatically, even the new john octo is damn hard with old route due to megaspeed, wr would possibly be at 1.16 or so ;)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Xiphias »

I WANT NEW ELMA! THEN NO ONE CAN COME AND SAY I'M ADDICTED TO THIS OLD STUPID GAME.
Left alo volt please. Else it is just the exact same game.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by twipley »

Xiphias wrote:Left alo volt please. Else it is just the exact same game.
Why fix it if it ain't broken. ::sadness:: :)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by teajay »

What the hell, I missed out totally on this discussion. Nice endeavour!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by jonsykkel »

nick-o-matic wrote:Actually it would be awesome if we could make both wheels operate completely independently from each others! I mean we could have for both wheels gas and brake separately, and also we could have reverse gas! This would make turning unnecessary, as it would be equivalent just for changing the direction of gasing. With that, the amount of needed control buttons is exactly matching our amount of fingers:

-gas for right wheel
-reverse gas for right wheel
-brake for right wheel
-gas for left wheel
-reverse gas for left wheel
-brake for left wheel
-right volt
-right alo
-left volt
-left alo
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start bat file to run, can also change a few settings in him
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note: this is not the "oficial" elma2 thing smibu and ropeli are working on, is just my litle fun project
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

i kinda like the theoretical possibilities part but it's definitely not a 'game' now :wink2:

wu: 18 or so
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball »

all of my wat
how play other level
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Kopaka »

edit the .bat
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

wu 14.57 or so, ez 12 but it's a nightmare to play this game, i didnt even use brakes or alovolts, hard enough with 4 throttles and volt buttons :D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by pawq »

rubiccubers - do your magic
impsy game
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

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edit: nevermind. :roll:
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Lousku »

Offtopic: GeneRally sequel developement blog. Very similar situation. :)
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by 8-ball »

holy crap, GeneRally! i forgot about that game after i got hooked on Turbo Sliders.

sure is funny to read that post, many issues mirroring our Elma 2 issues :D
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

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They even have a Markku of their own)
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

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every good game has a Markku!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Sprocket »

Here's my suggestion of how to handle this.

Go for a three tiered release:

1) Release a "legacy" Elastomania 2.0 to continue to support old-school hoyling and battling. This version should be 100% the same gameplay/physics as Elma 1.x. Include tweaking that emulates vsync and limited frame rate and whatever else is necessary to make it identical. Create a new interface from scratch and add whatever nice features that don't directly affect gameplay (i.e. no save/load, no left-alovolt etc.). As for bug-bounces don't change anything in the physics code, but if possible add an automatic detection mechanism that detects an illegal bug-bounce when it happens. Runs that include bug-bounces shouldn't count for high scores/records, but it should be possible to complete the run and save a replay of them. Something in the replay should indicate that this is a bugged replay.

2) Start work on a new "FreeElma" game (with a better name of course). This should be a new game in the same vein as Elastomania, but updated enough to make it feel like a new game, yet similar enough to capture the same spirit and making some player skill transfer to the new game. Something similar like the evolutionary step from Across to Elastomania. Add gameplay changes, but nothing *too* radical. Maybe left-alovolt, different timing of volts and such. Tweak/improve the physics and make it independent of frame rate. Fixing "semi buggy" bounces completely might hurt the spirit of the game too much, so find some middle ground. One solution could be to put a max on the power of these "semi bugged" bounces, so it becomes part of the gameplay that good players can hit a "max bounce" pretty consistently.

Create new levels and decide if the original levels should be included in the new version or not (just like most Across levels were included in Elastomania). One solution could be to create a brand new set of internal levels, but bundle all the Elastomania internals as a bonus pack (like OLP, but supported with WR tables from the start).

A decision would need to be made on whether to make this version open source or not, but if the goal is to create a new "hoyling" scene it might be a good idea to keep it closed source.

3) Release the source code for the Elma physics to the public. Make it open source if Balázs allows it (if necessary make the license non-commercial), otherwise just spread unofficially. If any work is done to fix bug-bouncing, then releasing that source would be preferable as well. Maybe include some library source code for loading levels, loading and saving of replays etc. If the "FreeElma" project has a closed source version of the physics, then keep that version closed source.

Releasing the source would allow others to create new third party games and keep the game genre evolving, especially if the license allows it to be used on a wide scale. These third party games wouldn't influence the "world record" scene, but might be fun in their own right.

---

Of course any details are merely suggestions, but the idea would be to cater to both old-schoolers (version 1), "normal" gamers (version 2) as well as third party game developers who might come up with crazy new features for the genre. Personally I think it would be awesome if option 2 and 3 could allow a new generation of gamers to find interest the hoyling that all of us love. :)

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Madness »

Yeah, let's have 50 different versions so everyone from this 50-man community can choose one!
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Sprocket »

Smibu wrote:There are also many replay players around (especially jonsykkel's replayer which is C/C++ and looks good), so it most likely would'nt take too long to put things together and make the first version.
Is that something that's available to play around with? Is it a standalone program or online-only?

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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Tigro »

pls read chris' signature.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Zweq »

i think many new lol moments would emerge if designer could set background music for lev.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Tigro »

that would enlarge the level size by huge ammount.
or, there would be some predefined musics, and you just select which one?
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Kopaka »

event based sounds could be nice too, like exciting music when at a difficult place, happy music when get a hard apple etc.
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Re: Do we want a new version of Elma?

Post by Pingywings »

Zweq wrote:i think many new lol moments would emerge if designer could set background music for lev.
it this isnt implemented im quit elma
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