EOL stop/abort policy

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Lousku
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EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Lousku » 14 Apr 2013, 22:43

I'm wondering what level of specificity would be possible in writing stop/abort policy. It seems to work pretty well that aborters ask others' opinions and make a quick decision, but perhaps it'd be nice to have some general guidelines. Are they written somewhere?

Case 1: This happened last night. A long cruise FF was added. Mawane added an arrow at a gravity spot but forgot to add the gravity itself, resulting in an obviously impossible level. jblaze managed to get ahead and reach the last humanely possible apple. I decided to stop the battle instead of aborting because it seemed that everything was fair about jblaze winning. Was this okay or should I have aborted it?

Case 2: Happened long ago. I don't know how I would even approach finding the battle, but if someone has the magic (#battle logs maybe), it'd be nice to get a link. TL started a flagtag battle in a small speedless flattrack level. I guess objectively within the rules but there was no way it could have been anything more than an orgy. I aborted the battle and some people complained. Are judgments like this acceptable?

Case 3: I don't have an example of this but it has happened many times. A battle is started and the designer notices he forgot something like an object placement. Even if the level is playable and within the rules, sometimes these are aborted by request. Fair enough if the battle just started, but what if it has already been going on for, say, 2 minutes? Half the battle? A clear line probably can't be drawn.

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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Chris » 14 Apr 2013, 22:47

Case 1 is clear and they should be aborted as level was impossible.

Case 2 should be based on "majority" of people complaining, but generally shouldn't be aborted.

Case 3, don't abort as long as level is possible.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by jonsykkel » 14 Apr 2013, 23:10

Chris wrote:Case 1 is clear and they should be aborted as level was impossible.
how is that clear? probably wasnt like someone opened editor and hovered mouse over all apples and discovered mawanes mistake and called for abortage during the first minute of the batle or something
i think most pipel would stop the batle if it had been going on for a while and someone reached the last possible aple (unless that aple was like 10sec into the level obviously)
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Chris » 14 Apr 2013, 23:37

jonsykkel wrote:
Chris wrote:Case 1 is clear and they should be aborted as level was impossible.
how is that clear? probably wasnt like someone opened editor and hovered mouse over all apples and discovered mawanes mistake and called for abortage during the first minute of the batle or something
i think most pipel would stop the batle if it had been going on for a while and someone reached the last possible aple (unless that aple was like 10sec into the level obviously)
The battle should be aborted, not stopped, because at the end it is all about tactical escape. It's not about difficulty as difficult first finishes levels shouldn't be aborted. Things like missing gravity apple, often render level totally impossible. Battles should be stopped only when players stop playing it. In this case Lousku didn't mention that players stopped playing it.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Orcc » 14 Apr 2013, 23:46

1. That would depend on the length of the level. Usually ez abort impsy levels, but if it's been a good battle so far, why not just stop. I don't really see it being fair to restart the fixed lev from start, if some people have already played big part of the lev.

2. That sounds clearly like abortable battle. However I only found one flagtag battle aborted by you, it was this http://elmaonline.net/battles/49370. While the lev is very small it doesn't seem as bad as you described.

3. Playable battles should be let played. Minor design mistakes won't affect much and if it's bigger one the designer can always make a remix of the lev.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Bludek » 14 Apr 2013, 23:49

Case 1: Mawane ... forgot ... itself ... impossible ... jblaze winning

I guess (read: what rules should say) correct decision is to bitch-slap Mawane, apologize to him for that, and then abort. And abort as soon as possible. But your decision was maybe better in this case - you are damn right about the thin line in this kind of decisions.

Case 2: TL started (probably awesome) battle.

This decision is max clear to me. TL decided to put balle, which you didn't like (I do not say it is clever to start FT like that, but it is his decision), so you aborted it. I am not surprised ppl didn't like that.
Btw rules for starting levels are already made: next case!

Case 3: designer forgot something like an arse

This could be similar to first case: level is not what designer wanted it to be. But this time he realizes it. Correct decision is imo (again) to abort it. The sooner the better. BUT if the level is finishable and it already started, it is probably better to let it be.
The main thing is the finish-able-ness (eh, wtf word..). If it can be finished and it is not somehow fucked up (see the lev design etiquette and rules again), it is designer's fault that he didn't check his level enough.


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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Lousku » 15 Apr 2013, 01:30

Orcc wrote:2. That sounds clearly like abortable battle. However I only found one flagtag battle aborted by you, it was this http://elmaonline.net/battles/49370. While the lev is very small it doesn't seem as bad as you described.
Hm, must have been another battle type then. It's not teh one linked. Vague memory. :/
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Grace » 15 Apr 2013, 08:50

Case one you made the correct decision.

Case two it is very subjective, and i think the best decision is to ask if others want it aborted.

Case three depends strongly on whether or not he realizes in time. As far as i care, if the designer requests abort before level is started, that's fine. After level is started - you have no more than 30 seconds to request abort. If you don't in 30 seconds, you don't get your battle aborted.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by Igge » 15 Apr 2013, 08:53

Case one is highly relative. If the spot is 100% undeniably impossible, I'd say stop the battle IF the first person to reach the spot if the first person to escape/die from it. However, if one person reaches the spot first, and someone else comes along eventually and tacitcals first, I'd say the battle should be aborted.

If there's the slightest chance the spot might be possible, I'd say never stop or abort. With so many good kuskis these days, I've seen amazing tricks being pulled off in seemingly impossible parts, usually generated by designer-error. If anyone in the level sincerely thinks the spot might be doable, they and everyone else should be allowed to attempt it. Otherwise you're discouraging people from trying and just rewarding the lazy people who choose to tactical. Imagine for instance how much more slowly the uphill "scene" would have grown and evolved were it not for seemingly impossible hills and spots. Elasto Mania is, after all, all about pushing the limits of what seems possible to do.

The difficult part is obviously telling whether a spot is indeed impossible or if it's just really, really hard. I'd say so long as it's in the gray-area, never stop or abort. Only if the player is faced by an impossibly high wall or anything of the like should it be considered impossible. Pretty much anything that could even theoretically be possible deserves to be explored. Even the darkest shades of gray still contain some white.

Case two feels like an abortable battle, depending on the battle duration. I'd say if it's a very short battle, let it slide and see what happens, since you never know what can happen until you've tried at least once. If it's very long and you can tell from the first minute that it's simply a very bad battle which goes against the idea of the battle type, I'd say abort. I guess the gray-area here is much harder to diffuse, since everyone has their own idea of what a good battle is, and especially a good FT battle. If more than 50% agree it should be aborted, I'd say abort.

The difference here compared to the first case is that in an FF you can play until you hit a spot that's just too hard for you, and you can stop there and be satisfied with your placement, because it's still a measure of how good you are ("I got more apples than X!"). In an FT you have to play the entire battle to reach your theoretical best, and being forced to play the entirety of a boring FT battle is much different from playing an FF up until a certain spot where it becomes too hard.

What I'm trying to say is that in an FF you can play once, reach your goal in your own time and then be done. In an FT you have to play the entire duration, and thus they should be a bit more regulated to allow for a good battle, so that you don't feel forced to play a shit battle just because you have to play it all to win.

Case three If the designer notices within the first minute or so, I say let him abort and re-start it IF there are no other battles in the queue. Since the designer has a good reason for re-starting, no one will likely have had time to start practicing a relevant style since apples/flower will be moved anyway, allowing for other styles. Still, it's only a matter of a minute or so, so I don't think it can change all that much if the battle is restarted immediately. If there are other levels in the queue (disallowing an immediate restart), or if the battle has gone on for at least 5% of the designated time (>30 seconds of a 10min battle), I'd say keep it going as long as it is possible. You never know what you might get from such designer errors, so sometimes it's just as fun playing/spying a faulty level rather than what you had already imagined when making it.

TL;DR:
1: Abort only if the level is 100% utterly impossible, or if the first person to reach the impossible spot is not the first to escape or die.
2: Abort only if a majority wants the level aborted, and if the battle can be seen as an inconvenience (long battle time)
3: Abort only if the battle was just started (less than one minute should have passed), and there are no other battles in the queue if the designer intends to re-start the level. If designer error has caused a scenario where a certain spot might be impossible see case 1.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by FinMan » 15 Apr 2013, 16:36

Lousku wrote:
Orcc wrote:2. That sounds clearly like abortable battle. However I only found one flagtag battle aborted by you, it was this http://elmaonline.net/battles/49370. While the lev is very small it doesn't seem as bad as you described.
Hm, must have been another battle type then. It's not teh one linked. Vague memory. :/
This one was when spy was broken, so flag tags didn't work.


Case 1: Clear abortage
Case 2: Clearly has to be aborted, same goes for a survivor/slowness battle where you can hang for those 15 mins. Bludek: no, it's not that the aborter does not like it. It just makes no sense to have an orgy in a level instead of having a battle on some cool level.
Case 3: Yes, I think the designer has the rights to get their level aborted, but the level will be (theoretically) old in case of 1 hour queue or such.
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Re: EOL stop/abort policy

Post by anpdad » 17 Apr 2013, 11:59

Pretty much agree with Orcc here.
Also i doubt it's possible to draw a certain line in the first situation and define a fair solution for each case. Your decision seems very reasonable. In case when battle has already been going for a long enough time, destroying players' efforts and their fair competition by aborting a lev is terrible . Most of us enjoy competing and getting some results (hopefully good ones:p), so removing that part of battling would ruin joy i think. Makers should get punished for their levmaking mistakes, not players.

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